They are by definition living here illegally... they should not given a direct benefit for breaking the law. Now if they truly are a productive member of the community, they can apply for citizenship legally. (or hell just pay the same tuition someone from Virginia or New Jersey would pay to go to school here)

5/3/2013 9:18:45 PM

They are not getting a direct benefit of breaking the law, they are benefitting from being residents of the state who have been contributing through their deeds and taxes and now want the education they earned by their merits ao they can continue to contribute and be productive tax paying members of a free market

5/3/2013 9:47:04 PM

illegal residents.

5/3/2013 11:11:15 PM

Quote :

"they should not given a direct benefit for breaking the law"

How, exactly, are they breaking the law?

This argument is stupid, because your position hinges on declaring someone illegal by virtue of their very existence.

5/4/2013 1:14:47 AM

^Do you agree that illegal immigrants have the right to protest in our country?

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 2:42 AM. Reason : .]

5/4/2013 2:42:34 AM

^^^
You're actively punishing people for breaking a law that you yourself has acknowledged is currently unjust.

Your argument is analogous to what people said when blacks had their own water fountains. If the blacks want water, they can just go to the fountain out back, why do they need to use the whites-only fountain?

5/4/2013 3:02:28 AM

100 years ago we let any asshole pass through Ellis Island. What's the moral difference between then and now?

5/4/2013 7:52:14 AM

Another wave of protests are coming this Monday and Tuesday.

5/4/2013 1:10:06 PM

Quote :

"Do you agree that illegal immigrants have the right to protest in our country?"

Anybody, anywhere, has the right to protest. What kind of stupid fucking question is this?

5/4/2013 2:34:12 PM

Quote :

"illegal residents."

irrelevant statement, if they are accepted to a state university it is based on their merits and accomplishments and residency (which takes into effect, among other things, their tax contributions).

Also, Section 9 of the NC Constitution says that the benefits of a higher education shall be extended, for free or as much as that is possible, to all people of the state. It does not make a distinction between legal and illegal immigrants.

5/4/2013 4:48:13 PM

What do you not understand about this? They are NOT legal citizens of the United States, and are living here ILLEGALLY. There are ways to come from another country to live here legally, and they should go that route.

My problem is that there are people overseas spending their hard earned money and time to immigrate to the US the correct, legal way. These people who came here illegally should not be rewarded for doing so. Not sure what is so hard to understand about that.

5/4/2013 5:09:51 PM

^Agree fully.

5/4/2013 5:24:45 PM

^^
It's not a reward. It's not THAT hard to figure out.

5/4/2013 5:51:16 PM

it's not a reward, acceptance to universities is based on merits

and most of these students were brought here when they were small children, before they were able to do it the "correct" way.

and this is the exact type of immigrant that an actual conservative would want to be able to move freely as part of a free market system

5/4/2013 6:17:55 PM

They can still ATTEND the college... just not get the BENEFIT of in-state tuition, since they aren't living here legally.

5/4/2013 6:54:13 PM

thats an arbitrary punishment based on nothing

the reason some people get in-state tuition is that they meet the residency requirements to do so, and because the NC constitution requires higher education to be as free as is reasonable possible for the people of the state (it does not say citizens, or legal immigrants, or have any qualifiers). if someone was brought here as a young child and has gone to school and been a resident of NC their entire lives, and meet the residency requirements, there is no reason they should not get the same tuition based on these facts.


[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 7:01 PM. Reason : /]

5/4/2013 6:59:23 PM

they are not residents LEGALLY. they are not entitled to the benefit of being a legal resident of the state. period.

5/4/2013 7:13:20 PM

but that's an arbitrary rule you are just making up, that distinction is not made in the higher education mandate in the NC Constitution. trying to use that reason is circular logic.

and it doesn't make any kind of logical sense

5/4/2013 7:16:43 PM

I'm just throwing this out there, but I'm reasonably certain that legal US residency is not an arbitrary thing.

5/4/2013 7:18:28 PM

it is in regards to in-state tuition

wearing purple shoes is not an arbitrary thing, but it is in regards to tuition

5/4/2013 7:19:15 PM

Quote :

"The General Assembly shall provide that the benefits of The University of North Carolina and other public institutions of higher education, as far as practicable, be extended to the people of the State free of expense.]"

The NC constitution makes no note of any kind about what constitutes NC residency or makes any note about in-state tuition. It's all arbitrary.

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 7:28 PM. Reason : quote]

5/4/2013 7:28:42 PM

it does actually make a distinction of only people of the state

5/4/2013 7:30:38 PM

Quote :

"but that's an arbitrary rule you are just making up, that distinction is not made in the higher education mandate in the NC Constitution. trying to use that reason is circular logic. "

But it is a distinction made in the subsequent laws regarding residency for tuition purposes.

Quote :

"Persons who are not U.S. citizens but who have certain visa and immigration statuses that grant them the legal ability to establish and maintain a bona fide domicile in this country are subject to the same considerations as U.S. citizens in determining residence status for tuition purposes. If it is later discovered that the person’s visa or immigration status was obtained fraudulently, the institution shall have the right to seek and collect payment of full, out-of-state tuition, along with fees and costs associated with such collection."

http://www.northcarolina.edu/legal/residence/committee/manual/Residence_Manual_Aug_2010.pdf

Now this is a conversation worth having, but residency for tuition purposes is made up of more than just living in the state, and those requirements were not simply made up just for illegal immigrants. Personally, I think the distinction for in and out of state tuition is silly. In this day an age, I expect plenty of students move out of state for college so that it's pretty much a wash.

5/4/2013 7:31:07 PM

circular logic

we are having a discussion about if the citizenship requirement should be allowed, so pointing out that it is a requirement either misses the point entirely or is pretty poor circular logic

(it's analogous to pointing out that the speed limit is 65 in a conversation about if the speed limit should be 65)

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 7:34 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2013 7:33:27 PM

^^Thank you.

Also

Quote :

"it does actually make a distinction of only people of the state"

People of the state is not a definition in and of itself. The NC constitution doesn't define what a makes one a "person of NC." There is residency requirement clearly defined in the NC constitution for voting eligibility, but not one for education.

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 7:35 PM. Reason : sdfdf]

5/4/2013 7:35:24 PM

so your argument is that "of the state" is dependent on federal citizenship?

5/4/2013 7:38:56 PM

Quote :

"they are not entitled to the benefit of being a legal resident of the state. period."

This seems to be a statement of belief about what the current law is, are you also suggesting that is the way it should be?

5/4/2013 7:43:07 PM

My argument is that unless there is some other definition contained in the NC constitution that is the baseline minimum requirement, yes.

5/4/2013 7:43:31 PM

Just to be clear, I'm in favor of almost totally open borders.

From a legal standpoint it's completely illogical for someone who is not a legal resident of the state to be considered an in state resident for tuition purposes.

5/4/2013 7:45:09 PM

there is no such thing as state citizenship

5/4/2013 7:46:34 PM

No, but there is pretty clearly such a thing as a legal resident and an illegal resident.

I said nothing about citizenship outside of US citizenship.

5/4/2013 7:50:51 PM

so why would "of the state" be dependent on a federal issue?

5/4/2013 7:54:49 PM

If you cannot legally reside in the borders of the US you cannot legally reside within the borders of its member states.

Now, why don't you explain why it shouldn't be.

Should there not be any constraint on what makes one part of "the people of the state"? What about temporal constraints. If I move to NC today can I pay in state tuition if I start school tomorrow?

5/4/2013 8:00:13 PM

i've already explained why it shouldn't be

how about one of you guys explain why it should, instead of simply saying "it is because it is!"

5/4/2013 8:06:53 PM

Quote :

"there is no such thing as state citizenship, getting instate tuition is based on where you are living and have been paying taxes. there is no reason the same rules should apply to an undocumented immigrant the same was as to someone who moved to NC from another state. If they meet the requirements to show they are an NC resident, they should get in-state tuition."

I'm assuming this is the argument you're referring to.

Poeple who are here illegally have not been paying taxes aside from sales taxes. You then fail to define what a NC resident is. So, no, you really haven't put forth any kind of argument.

5/4/2013 8:14:16 PM

that was only part of my position

and

Quote :

"how about one of you guys explain why it should, instead of simply saying "it is because it is!""

Quote :

"Poeple who are here illegally have not been paying taxes aside from sales taxes"

FALSE

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 8:15 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2013 8:15:19 PM

Quote :

"why should they have to if they have been a tax-paying resident of the state who meets the residency requirements?"

Ahh, and here we go. As 1337 b4k4 correctly points out residency requirements have been defined to include citizenship status.

5/4/2013 8:20:22 PM

^

Quote :

"circular logic we are having a discussion about if the citizenship requirement should be allowed, so pointing out that it is a requirement either misses the point entirely or is pretty poor circular logic (it's analogous to pointing out that the speed limit is 65 in a conversation about if the speed limit should be 65)"

and the other part of my point is that these are the type of immigrants a free market society (and any true conservative) should be encouraging

5/4/2013 8:25:44 PM

Really, so people who are not legal US citizens or legal resident aliens are paying all the taxes that other people are? They're paying SS, income tax, and property tax? How are they managing that exactly? That's why citizenship status is currently part of the residency requirement, not just for shits and giggles.

There's a massive, massive black market economy based on people avoiding all of those. A large portion of those participating in it are because they lack legal status to participate in the regular economy.

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 8:30 PM. Reason : sdfsdfsdf]

5/4/2013 8:27:00 PM

We should definitely increase the number of visas we provide, we should definitely make immigration much easier. However there is massive, massive pressure against that from both sides. Blame fear mongering right wingers and labor unions on the left.

5/4/2013 8:28:45 PM

not only do they pay most of those taxes, but they can't receive the benefits from some of them.

when an illegal immigrant gets their paycheck, income and SS taxes are deducted just like you or I. Unlike you or I though, they are unable to ever receive SS benefits. They are paying into a system they can never benefit from on the order of billions of dollars a year.

(and, just like you or I, they only pay property tax if they own property tax. otherwise they pay rent and allow the property owner to pay property tax, just like you or I.)

5/4/2013 8:30:34 PM

Quote :

"when an illegal immigrant gets their paycheck, income and SS taxes are deducted just like you or I. Unlike you or I though, they are unable to ever receive SS benefits. They are paying into a system they can never benefit from on the order of billions of dollars a year. "

Only if they've provided false documentation, which means they are going out of there way to not participate in those systems legally. In which case yes, I sympathize with their plight, but you can't reward that.

[Edited on May 4, 2013 at 8:34 PM. Reason : khkjh]

5/4/2013 8:32:39 PM

that's most of them, most of them pay those taxes you listed. they contribute about $7B to SS alone.

sources:
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/41645
http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&_r=0
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7718604

5/4/2013 8:34:34 PM

And programs like ITIN are an awful, shitty compromise that shouldn't exist.

5/4/2013 8:36:54 PM

Quote :

""

They're NOT "undocumented." I hate PC bullshit like this. The people are only "undocumented" because they broke the law (i.e., did something illegal) to get here. Ergo, they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Why can't liberals understand the basic meaning of words?

Quote :

"and most of these students were brought here when they were small children, before they were able to do it the "correct" way."

Maybe if parents had to think about the hardships they would put their children under by bringing them here illegally and knew that their kids would have it really hard they would STOP FUCKING BRINGING THEIR KIDS HERE ILLEGALLY. Instead, we practically give people an inducement to come here and take away all of the bad things that come from being here illegally! But hell, that'll really convince people to follow the law instead, right?

Quote :

"when an illegal immigrant gets their paycheck, income and SS taxes are deducted just like you or I. Unlike you or I though, they are unable to ever receive SS benefits. They are paying into a system they can never benefit from on the order of billions of dollars a year. "

Good. Come here legally and you won't have to worry about that, either

5/4/2013 9:50:59 PM

and just when we start having a really good conversation, here comes aaronburro to quote bomb it to hell.

i'm out

5/4/2013 10:06:26 PM

and here's baldy to complain about someone engaging the in the conversation in a way he doesn't like and can't actually counter.

5/4/2013 10:13:31 PM

i can counter it pretty easily, watch this:

uh... baldy? i'm not bald, chief.

5/4/2013 10:14:58 PM

Just saying "come here legally" is like saying "just own some land, and you can vote" back in the days.

You might seem to lesser intelligent people that you're making a rational argument, but you're using a platitude to dismiss a real problem (talented, intelligent, English-speaking North Carolinians being thwarted from pursuing higher education).

How about a multipronged approach that recognizes the issues with the overall immigration system, while boosting society by letting de facto residents of the state get instate tuition.

5/4/2013 11:11:10 PM

actually, no, it's not just like your absurd comparison. "Come here legally" is what every other nation in the world says. I think it's a pretty reasonable request. You know, ask to be invited in, a concept that basically every person in every culture anywhere understands. I realize there are problems with our current system and requirements, and let's fix them. But let's also be clear that we shouldn't reward or excuse those who didn't even try to follow the existing ones whatsoever, simply because they could hop the fence.

That they are a de facto resident is beside the point. They got here illegally. They shouldn't be rewarded in any way, shape, or form. We should make it as painful and shitty as humanly possibly (without resorting to barbarism, of course) for people that come here illegally so that people will actually do the right thing and follow the processes set up to come here.

5/5/2013 12:24:00 AM