yeah... i agree... thats the difference between wouldn't mind and would actually seek.

11/10/2011 12:32:28 PM

I've never really cared to own one. Even if I was loaded (like for real loaded) I think I'd have far more fun with a GTR/Vette/M3/M5/etc that I could drive like I stole. Even with money being no object I think I would still be uptight about door dings, bumper chips, or curb rash on one of these cars to the point that I wouldn't truly enjoy it. It's just so far down my list of wants that it's not even on my radar at this point in my life.

Then again, both my rides are about as boring as they come right now. They're paid for and reliable though and I have other priorities for the time being.

[Edited on November 10, 2011 at 12:38 PM. Reason : l]

11/10/2011 12:35:39 PM

Koenigsegg Agera-R

& McClaren MP4-12C

& 911 turbo

& GTR

those are the respective Ferrari substitutes i'd rather have.

[Edited on November 10, 2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on November 10, 2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2011 12:42:27 PM

if money were no object, i'd rallyX a GTR just to piss off the nissan fan boiz

11/10/2011 12:51:51 PM

lol i'd rally x the Juke-R lol

11/10/2011 12:56:17 PM

Quote :

"^^^ Listen... i'm not arguing with you anymore you've embarrassed yourself enough. "

In other words you have no rebuttal. Stick to your nonsense talk about coyote 5.0 in 355 and other 12-year old's automotive topics.

Quote :

"that is a pretty terrible understanding (or lack thereof) of the principle of supply and demand determining price. "

Elaborate how and why is it terrible understanding. Dying to hear it.

[Edited on November 10, 2011 at 5:37 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2011 5:33:58 PM

BAHAHHA no i just don't want to kick someone when they've already proven they have Zero idea of economics or supply and demand to everyone here smart enough to actually know how shit works.

You made yourself look dumb with your last two comments. Remember that kid who didn't know what a boner was in second grade and keeps trying to use it wrong...

Right now, you are that kid.

Just stop, i haven't said anything false, i've just made a couple jokes that anyone who's not assuming i'm stupid would understand.

[Edited on November 10, 2011 at 5:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2011 5:42:43 PM

Patiently waiting for the economics lesson.

11/10/2011 6:03:21 PM

I used to tutor economics for the football team. I am willing to engage in a constructive discussion about this.

1in10^9, can you articulate your "supply and demand has nothing to do with it" argument again? Are you saying that the number of Ferraris available has no effect on the price whatsoever? Or that the potential sale price has no effect on the manufacturer's ability and willingness to produce the product? Are you saying that the buying public's desire for a Ferrari has no effect on how much they cost?

Are we talking about new Ferraris or used ones? Are you talking about a really low production one, like an F40 or an Enzo, or are you talking about the higher volume ones? Are you comparing the used car market of a Ferrari to something else or making a general statement about how much they cost in terms of nominal prices or inflation-adjusted prices?

11/10/2011 10:33:19 PM

Quote :

"the funny thing is, you can argue the value of a car but it is done based on supply and demand. basically something makes your car worth 50k whether its an awesome car with crappy reliabilty and expensive maintenance that will get you laid when it is running or just a regular looking sedan that's faster, more reliable but won't get you laid. (355 vs cts-v)"

This was somefool's quote I was addressing.

Facts first:

CTS-V MSRP $63k in 2011
F355 MSRP in $132k in '98 ($175k in today's $)

Quote :

" Are you saying that the number of Ferraris available has no effect on the price whatsoever?"

There are plenty of F355 on sale. Ferrari does not make 250,000 cars per year, because they know their market is smaller than Toyota's. It makes enough models to satisfy the small of niche of society that is willing to pay for them.

Ferrari just like all the other car follows its own depreciation curve. It was way more expensive than CTS-V when new, so it is quite normal that it will be more expensive used, just like used rolex watches are more expensive than used timex watches.

Going back to simple example of rolex and timex. If you have the means, you can find and buy Rolex in Raleigh. There are TON of them on sale. Supply is not a problem. It is more expensive because it is marque, it uses superior materials and offers hand craftsmanship, just like you get acres of carbon fiber on Ferraris vs your average CTS-V, titanium parts, aluminum suspension...etc etc etc.

Not sure how he can in anyway compare and say CTS-V and F355 are related in price because F355 is in bigger demand???? It has its own demand that is independent of Caddy's.

11/11/2011 12:02:31 AM

See where your rolex/timex argument is completely flawed is saying that there are plenty of them. Rolex knows that if they make 250,000 copies of 1 watch style no one will pay 6 grand for it. Because the supply exceeds the demand for a $6,000 watch. You also mention depreciation... rolex watches barely ever depreciate, if you see one for cheap odds are its a fake, even with extreme wear each model (some more than others) is rare and only a certain number were made. My watch just went out of production a year ago and its worth more then it used to be already.

Now the reason there are 30-60k ferraris now, is that if you strip away the precision construction (because its now worn out) and the hyper performance (because 300-400hp isn't shit anymore), you're left with an un-reliable car that's not even that fast. Which means there should be 0 demand for the car and the 100s (not 10000s on the market) would flood the demand pool and drive the price down. However the fact that the 355s and testarossas were on every kid's wall in the 90s leaves the demand factor pretty high.

I joked about the CTS-V because it can be had for the same price, will out accelerate, and out run a 355 on track but they are both worth the same amount of money because the caddy can still be trusted to start EVERY time you turn the key, and the ferrari can get you laid just driving up to the mall in it and sounds like an orgasm every time you stomp on the go-pedal.

People want both cars for about 50k worth of want... any more and people couldn't get rid of them, any less and when they went on sale it would be instantly sold.

If you put your car for sale for 10k and got 50 calls the first day wouldn't you consider raising the price?


Conversely if you put your car for sale for 100k and no one called for 6months wouldn't you consider lowering your price?


TADAAAA supply/demand for dummies.

and who gives a shit about MSRP.

11/11/2011 7:02:48 AM

Ultimately we are saying the same thing,

Its worth what it's worth because its a ferrari

11/11/2011 8:05:38 AM

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the reselling structure that Ferrari has, and how it is different than any other automobile make. Before you can buy a new Ferrari you have to buy a used Ferrari first (from the dealership). Then you can buy a new Ferrari (after being on the 1-2 year waiting list all new Ferraris have). Of course you are expected to sell that Ferrari back to the dealership when you want to get rid of it.

If you don't follow those rules good luck buying a new Ferrari again. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule (insane amounts of money or connections) but that's generally how it works. With a car as "old" as an F355 maybe the rules don't apply as much but I think most people would trust buying an F355 from the dealership over a private seller.

Quote :

"I joked about the CTS-V because it can be had for the same price, will out accelerate, and out run a 355 on track but they are both worth the same amount of money because the caddy can still be trusted to start EVERY time you turn the key, and the ferrari can get you laid just driving up to the mall in it and sounds like an orgasm every time you stomp on the go-pedal. "

The CTS-V can probably hang, mainly because of it's 175 hp advantage, but don't be fooled into thinking it is a superior handling machine. And after 4-5 laps (depending on the track) I'd imagine it's brakes and tires will be a smoldering mess thanks to it's 4300+ lb curb weight.

11/11/2011 8:46:08 AM

That could be true... keep in mind the cts-v does have brakes sized for the weight of the car...
huge 6 piston calipers with massive rotors but its still 1200lbs heavier... a 355 and a half almost...(in almost every way)



And honestly i'm trying to point out the fact that a 4300lb 4 door car still under warranty that may even possibly keep up with a 355 costs less while being infinitely more loaded with sat-nav, blue tooth, hd-radio, disk changer, heated seats etc... the only reason you'd buy the Ferrari is

1. how it looks
2. how it sounds.
3. to tell people you own a Ferrari






[Edited on November 11, 2011 at 9:29 AM. Reason : .]

11/11/2011 9:14:10 AM

^you have valid points with the CTS-V but how long do you really think the tires would last? With mass you can only do so much.

For the Ferrari I'd add driving experience and superior handling. There are still plenty of people out there that prefer lightweight cars with direct feedback and handling (including you I believe).

11/11/2011 9:21:54 AM

Even though he may not characterize it this way, 1in10^9 is arguing, in essence, that there isn't a shortage of Ferraris at the current price level. Thus there isn't an additional price-premium to be paid to acquire one. In terms of defining "shortage," think about what happens when the UNC-NC State football game sells out. In that case there is a shortage in the market in economic terms, and you get a price-premium arising (scalping).

I will reframe the question to 1in10^9 again. IF more used Ferraris (say 360 Modena) were on the market (increase in quantity supplied to the market), would the average price increase, decrease, or stay the same? Assume for arguments sake that we are talking about Ferraris of similar condition.

And IF, hypothetically, the 360 Modena were to be known for spontaneously catching on fire (or some other anxiety-inducing reputation), would the average price increase, decrease, or stay the same?

[Edited on November 11, 2011 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

11/11/2011 9:27:28 AM

Essentially all i'm saying is the 355 is a cool car, i'd spend my money elsewhere (probably not on a CTSV either yet) All i'm saying is most of its coolness comes from it being a ferrari and it being designed by Pininfarina. The CTS-V was a caricature of an argument being the C5 zo6 could wipe the floor with the 355 in almost every stat but ferrariness for 1/3 the cost.

I do like lightweight cars and i do like the 355 i'm just trying to get people to admit the main reason the car is cool isn't because its superior to anything anymore... its because its a Ferrari.

Where one in a million and i disagree (or i feel that we disagree) is i feel that he thinks for 50k the Ferrari is more refined and better engineered because its a Ferrari where i think that a 16 yr old Ferrari isn't anywhere near the cutting edge of tech anymore and a 5 year old car for half the cost is significantly better engineered... It just doesn't have the essence of Ferrari (sound, look, name).

11/11/2011 9:33:12 AM

^ I agree with the above assessment.

11/11/2011 9:41:45 AM

I love me some Ferraris but I view them as fragile cars that wouldn't survive a lot of track day use. Whereas with a Porsche of similar performance I wouldn't think twice about thrashing it all weekend long.

11/11/2011 10:05:51 AM

Quote :

"I do like lightweight cars and i do like the 355 i'm just trying to get people to admit the main reason the car is cool isn't because its superior to anything anymore... its because its a Ferrari. "

Haha, DUH, I thought all that was a given.

11/11/2011 1:07:40 PM