In this thread, GrumpyGOP puts words in your mouth.

[Edited on December 9, 2010 at 2:44 PM. Reason : Peace, we outta here.]

12/9/2010 2:44:29 PM

I'll never understand why Christians want no part of Halloween, even though it's Christian in origin. However, they go to great lengths to steal Christmas for themselves.

12/9/2010 2:57:28 PM

^^You said it felt good to refuse to incline your head for thirty seconds while someone talks, even though (I'm assuming this from the line you were responding to) there are family and friends who would be made happier by your participation.

^The actual Christian holiday it commemorates is still celebrated, I think. And those who refuse to participate in all the secular aspects are a pretty small minority. Hell, my church back home does a Halloween thing for the kids every year, though they don't permit dressing like the devil.

12/9/2010 3:02:01 PM

That's far different from "[telling] them to go fuck themselves out of principle."

But yes, it feels good to shuck all that fucking stupid superstitious claptrap, and it feels especially good to do it in front of family. If you can shake that shit in front of people whose opinions you might actually care about, it means you've actually got conviction.

I love my mom, but fuck if I'm gonna pretend to love Sky Daddy for her benefit. My mom loves me no matter what my personal beliefs are, and vice versa. Nobody has to put on airs. That is some fake-ass shit.

12/9/2010 3:07:29 PM

Quote :

"Wow. You guys have loved ones who would presumably appreciate your taking part in a brief, meaningless little custom that requires no effort on your part, and you tell them to go fuck themselves out of principle?"

No I don't tell them to "go fuck themselves" but I do decline attending. I don't ask them to attend the pipe ceremony I don't see why they ask me to get doped up on their silly shit instead.

12/9/2010 3:30:22 PM

Quote :

"I'll never understand why Christians want no part of Halloween, even though it's Christian in origin. However, they go to great lengths to steal Christmas for themselves."

It's probably just your limited view of Christians - All Saints Day is talked about quite a bit.

[Edited on December 9, 2010 at 3:46 PM. Reason : /quote]

12/9/2010 3:46:11 PM

^
I went to three different churches up until age 16 and never heard it mentioned.

12/9/2010 3:50:58 PM

All Saints Day is pagan as well.

12/9/2010 4:18:26 PM

^considering that a saint is a person of significance in religious circles, I find that hard to believe.

12/9/2010 5:39:06 PM

Quote :

"Wow. You guys have loved ones who would presumably appreciate your taking part in a brief, meaningless little custom that requires no effort on your part, and you tell them to go fuck themselves out of principle?"

If it's meaningless, surely my family won't mind when I don't take part. Bowing head and closing eyes during prayer (supposedly) shows you've got your undivided attention on talking to god. Since I don't believe in god, why should I fake it? I think that would be more condescending than supportive. And my own convictions are obviously important to me: no, I'm not going to participate any more than holding hands.

12/9/2010 5:39:49 PM

^would you not take your shoes off at a fancy Japanese steakhouse? I won't get talked into going to church, but I'll at least bow my head during someone else's prayer out of courtesy.

12/9/2010 6:14:59 PM

Quote :

"^considering that a saint is a person of significance in religious circles, I find that hard to believe."

The usage of saints was a means for the early church to incorporate aspects of the polytheistic religions it was superseding. Add onto it the similarity between All Saints Day and Lemuria and you get your answer.

12/9/2010 6:34:08 PM

what is Lemuria? I've aware of Samhain, but that tradition doesn't outdate the catholic celebration of All Saints Day.

12/9/2010 6:41:13 PM

It's a Roman pagan feast holiday that was taken over in the 7th Century when the Pope instituted All Saints Day when they also took over the Pantheon and consecrated it to the Virgin Mary.

12/9/2010 7:03:32 PM

Quote :

"^would you not take your shoes off at a fancy Japanese steakhouse?"

Probably, but my understanding is that it's a cultural thing, not a religious thing.

12/9/2010 7:06:10 PM

Don't pretty much every non-xtian societies have end of the year celebrations? I don't think Christ has fuck all to do with year end celebrations.


If it's not one reason, it's another. People like to have parties with their families everywhere, especially when the winter is so dismal otherwise.

12/9/2010 7:49:15 PM

I celebrate it because it's the cultural festival here, if I lived in india I'd celebrate Dawali, and I don't believe in whatever that's based on.

12/9/2010 8:09:29 PM

Quote :

"Just wondering if any still celebrate the event of "Santa"? Why or why not?"

I'm atheist, and i celebrate Christmas.

Why?

Well, you answered it yourself:

Quote :

"for the joy of my family and neighbors."

I know that's talking about your decorations, but since the rest of the US and many other parts of the world take time to spend time with each other and to appreciate more than ourselves, why wouldn't I partake in it? You don't need to be Christian to appreciate Christmas and what it means outside of a religious context.

Quote :

"Dude, I'm not getting into this like you are wanting me to. Take your wikipedia and shove it."

Quote :

"Y'all can continue with your bashing of me all of you want, I don't really care b'c it doesn't ruin my day like you may want it to"

No one is bashing you and no one is trying to ruin your day, no need to be confrontational. Just because people are saying things and ask you questions that cause you to question your own faith or your own notion of Christmas, doesn't mean we're trying to be mean. If anything, I feel that it's a waste of a person's life if we never question our beliefs. Would modern medicine and science come this far if we never questioned our beliefs?

I just think it's funny that Christians think that their belief is right on an absolute level. Why not be Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan? What evidence exists that validates your belief in God over whatever Hindus believe in? If you weren't born to Christian parents, you probably wouldn't be Christian.

I guess my point is, don't be closed minded. Open your mind up to the possibility of their being no higher being. Don't ask yourself what your life would be without God, but question the existence of God.

12/9/2010 8:59:13 PM

Quote :

"^would you not take your shoes off at a fancy Japanese steakhouse? I won't get talked into going to church, but I'll at least bow my head during someone else's prayer out of courtesy."

However if I didn't want to take my shoes off I could opt out of going to a fancy Japanese steakhouse. I don't go to church so I should presumably not have to participate in strange religious rituals. What I want to know is why are christians so sensitive to people ignoring and not participating in their bullshit? If I desired for everyone at the table to say a prayer to "the nature god" at the end of a meal I am pretty sure the vast majority of christians would refuse. To me christianity (and other religions) is/are responsible for a lot of ignorance and evil in the world. Even pretending to participate in these behaviors seems wrong to me.

12/9/2010 9:01:22 PM

Its always hilarious to me that atheists are frequently just as militant (and evangelical) as the religious people whom they scorn....

As a nihilist I have absolutely no problem being a good sport and participating in meaningless rituals. As a hedonist, I am happy to keep the social boat from rocking. As a nihilistic hedonist I really only care about keeping myself happy and content until I die. If the best way to do this is to bow my head or whatever for 20 seconds, then so be it.

Some of you atheists take yourselves way too seriously.

As far as Christmas is concerned, if you can't see the value of tradition for tradition's sake to the vast majority of people (usually including your friends and loved ones), then fuck you for being an immature navel gazer. That goes for Christians who doubt an atheist's claim to Christmas and it goes for arrogant prick atheists who act as though they're too good for Christmas.

12/9/2010 10:46:20 PM

12/9/2010 10:56:06 PM

Quote :

"and it goes for arrogant prick atheists who act as though they're too good for Christmas."

Who in this thread is like that? You are making up straw men to knock down in order to make yourself look better. In fact, every non-christian in this thread says they pretty much take the approach you do. Did you think you were special?

12/10/2010 2:19:05 AM

^^^^

As a Christian, or at least as a person that attempts to be Christian, I don't really find myself taking offense or being sensitive about something when people don't want to participate in whatever, in fact I seldom notice. I think the only class of people that some Christians take offense at are the people that go out of their way to be rude toward Christians just to show that they won't participate.

I really wouldn't chalk that up to religion though, it's just human nature. You're likely to take offense if someone goes out of their way to be a jerk. That would be like if you were eating a sandwich in a lunchroom and someone got up in your face just to tell you how much they thought your sandwich sucked. You'd either take offense or think that person was rude. Of course there are some people that would wave their sandwich right in other people's faces and tell them how good it is, so what goes around comes around I guess.

Saying all Christians are sensitive about non-participants is just as wrong as saying all atheists are the type to be confrontational about not participating.

Quote :

"If I desired for everyone at the table to say a prayer to "the nature god" at the end of a meal I am pretty sure the vast majority of christians would refuse."

Maybe. Would you then be offended if they didn't? There's enough diversity between the Christian denominations that I've felt like they were saying prayers to "the nature god" in some churches I've been in.

Quote :

"To me christianity (and other religions) is/are responsible for a lot of ignorance and evil in the world"

A lot of people are ignorant and some people are evil. Christians are people too.

12/10/2010 7:54:23 AM

Yeah, pretty much everyone except McD and FroshK have agreed that we might as well just go along with the pointlessness. Grumpy is being just that, grumpy.

There is an unnecessary amount of emotion in this thread.

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 7:59 AM. Reason : this would get posted after a fairly rational post like ^]

12/10/2010 7:55:56 AM

And let me clarify that my personal choice doesn't mean I look down on anyone who goes with the flow.

12/10/2010 8:03:04 AM

I'll be honest and say that I go along with it because my grandparents don't know I'm atheist.

The most dick thing I do is send passive aggressive responses to their chain letter email forwards.

12/10/2010 8:19:12 AM

Quote :

"Maybe. Would you then be offended if they didn't? There's enough diversity between the Christian denominations that I've felt like they were saying prayers to "the nature god" in some churches I've been in. "

No therefore christians shouldn't be offended when atheists do not bow their heads in prayer at the dinner table. Keep your religious bullshit in your churches or to yourself if you do not want to have your faith challenged.

Quote :

" Its always hilarious to me that atheists are frequently just as militant (and evangelical) as the religious people whom they scorn.... "

Why is that hilarious to you? Can you not see how religion contributes to the ignorance of our society?
A little light reading for you:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=faith-and-foolishness

12/10/2010 8:22:25 AM

Quote :

"Maybe. Would you then be offended if they didn't? There's enough diversity between the Christian denominations that I've felt like they were saying prayers to "the nature god" in some churches I've been in. "

No therefore christians shouldn't be offended when atheists do not bow their heads in prayer at the dinner table. Keep your religious bullshit in your churches or to yourself if you do not want to have your faith challenged.

Quote :

" Its always hilarious to me that atheists are frequently just as militant (and evangelical) as the religious people whom they scorn.... "

Why is that hilarious to you? Can you not see how religion contributes to the ignorance of our society?
A little light reading for you:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=faith-and-foolishness

12/10/2010 8:30:10 AM

Quote :

"As a nihilistic hedonist I really only care about keeping myself happy and content until I die. Some of you atheists take yourselves way too seriously."

lol

12/10/2010 8:40:08 AM

Quote :

"Can you not see how religion dogmatic ideology contributes to the ignorance of our society?"

Despite being an atheist, one of the gifts that religion gave us (or perhaps was a result of) is the human need to understand the world. We couldn't figure out why some years there was plentiful rain and others there was drought, so we invented a god or gods to explain the world for us. It was a tool for its time and quite a useful one at that. But one I feel we have outgrown.

That being said, abandoning all religious dogma is no panacea. Communism rejected theism, Nazi Germany was a-theistic* and combined killed at least 84.3M people in the 20th century. Religion does not make human-kind evil, it merely enables him.



(*though it coopted religious traditions and happily used collaborative clergy, Nazism was a religon of the state and of race which subordinated the Church to interests of the party.)

12/10/2010 8:55:53 AM

Watch out, incoming militant evangelical atheist.

I celebrate Christmas because my family loves it and I feel good giving presents and making donations. We lie to our child and tell her Santa's coming because she's 2. I don't really bow my head but I don't make a fuss over it either. Usually no one else is looking but sometimes you can catch them peeking.
----------------------------------------------
JCASHFAN, why do you stink this thread with apologetic lies? Associating the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin as a direct consequence of atheism do not stand up to historical scrutiny. I know you were just trying to make the point that the world wouldn't magically become perfect if religion disappeared, but no one in here was suggesting otherwise and continuing the unintelligent notion that atheism had anything to do with Nazi Germany was worse than pointless.

12/10/2010 9:10:03 AM

Quote :

"We lie to our child and tell her Santa's coming because she's 2."

shit ain't right homey

12/10/2010 9:13:53 AM

Yeah, that was a discussion. Almost a fight. I conceded.

12/10/2010 9:14:46 AM

Seriously??

I plan on lying to my children a lot at that age. Dragons. Unicorns. Kobolds.

They won't have any idea what's going on.

12/10/2010 9:16:09 AM

Quote :

"No therefore christians shouldn't be offended when atheists do not bow their heads in prayer at the dinner table. Keep your religious bullshit in your churches or to yourself if you do not want to have your faith challenged. "

If you don't want to bow your head at their dinner table, then don't dine with practicing Christians. No one's forcing you.

12/10/2010 9:18:45 AM

i'll tell people's kids

there is no santa claus

your parents want to give you gifts because they love you and want you to be happy

but instead of just doing the damn thing because they love you

they feel the need to couch their gesture in fantasy and wonder

as if they don't remember the pain and disappointment they felt as children when the lie stood revealed

you should call them out on it

you are more emotionally mature than they are

12/10/2010 9:19:35 AM

^^I don't lie to her because it's fun to lie to her. I lie to her because fantasies aren't a bad thing for a 2 year old and she's really excited about Santa. I don't want her to be the toddler at preschool telling other kids that Santa doesn't exist.

However, my point is that there is more than enough non-superstitious phenomena in our Universe that's worth our awe. I'd prefer spending the time getting excited about Santa teaching her about life and astronomy, but like I said, she's 2.

12/10/2010 9:20:21 AM

she's 2

and she will be 3

and 4

and 5

and someday, you will have to break it to her

12/10/2010 9:22:55 AM

Quote :

"Why is that hilarious to you? Can you not see how religion contributes to the ignorance of our society? A little light reading for you: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=faith-and-foolishness"

We should be less concerned about whether someone believes the universe was created by a big bang, and more concerned about whether someone knows how to read or understands concepts like "nutrition" and "finding Afghanistan on a map".

12/10/2010 9:24:27 AM

Quote :

"she's 2 and she will be 3 and 4 and 5 and someday, you will have to break it to her"

I'm not in denial of this. One day I'll have to teach her about death, too. It's called being a parent.

12/10/2010 9:37:01 AM

being a parent later

12/10/2010 9:38:50 AM

lol, if you say so.

12/10/2010 9:44:43 AM

alternatively

you wouldn't have to worry about telling your kid the truth later if you'd told her the truth in the first place

12/10/2010 9:45:06 AM

Quote :

"JCASHFAN, why do you stink this thread with apologetic lies?"

Apologetic for what? I am an atheist myself.

Quote :

"Associating the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin as a direct consequence of atheism do not stand up to historical scrutiny."

I did no such thing. I said they were a direct consequence of dogmatic ideology. I mean, it is right there in the quote box.

Quote :

"continuing the unintelligent notion that atheism had anything to do with Nazi Germany was worse than pointless"

I didn't. There is no simple answer to Nazi Germany's complex interplay with the Church. What I WAS asserting was that, with no affirmative formal religious motivation whatsoever Hitler managed to create a state apparatus that deliberately exterminated up to 12 million of people. Hitler appropriated the Church and sought to use the Church as a social instrument of control, not as a moral justification. His religion was state and race and he did not make the appeal to any paritcular religion for justification.


But don't take my word for it, from 1937

Quote :

"In our efforts to deepen National Socialist forms of behavior in the area of rituals and ceremonies, we have two main tasks. On the one hand, we must create new ideas and new customs, and on the other hand it is necessary to adjust those customs that have grown out of the people to the “new community of the Germans,” which means giving these inherited customs a new content consistent with the people’s community."

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/feier37.htm

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ?]

12/10/2010 9:46:13 AM

Argue if you wish that Hitler was simply abusing the Church rather than a believer, but I don't see how you get from "abandoning all religious dogma is no panacea" with Nazism itself being a religion. It seems counter to your original point. You say getting rid of dogmatic ideologies wouldn't be a cureall and to prove it you point out yet another dogmatic ideology.

I know you're an atheist, it's the point you were making that was apologetic or at least accommodating to the apologists.

12/10/2010 9:59:28 AM

Fair point. It was a poor choice of words on my part. "Abandoning the concept of Theism and a 'Higher power' would be no panacea" would be a more accurate term for the point I was trying to get across.

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 10:06 AM. Reason : .]

12/10/2010 10:05:59 AM

That point is arguable, and for another thread. Back to bowing your head when you don't believe and teaching children lies.

12/10/2010 10:16:24 AM

Quote :

"We should be less concerned about whether someone believes the universe was created by a big bang, and more concerned about whether someone knows how to read or understands concepts like "nutrition" and "finding Afghanistan on a map"."

One could argue that belief in fables as opposed to factual support lends itself towards a general attitude of ignorance an apathy on a lot of levels.

^True enough.

Quote :

" If you don't want to bow your head at their dinner table, then don't dine with practicing Christians. No one's forcing you."

Unfortunately it is being forced on you. Wake County board of governors has an opening prayer before they begin their sessions. But again that is in government and not personal lives.
Honestly I would think most christians shouldn't mind if you quietly do not participate. I never do and I have never had anyone say anything to me. If I were asked I would respond with "I do not believe in a god and wouldn't it be a little disrespectful of my beliefs if I pretended I did"

12/10/2010 10:24:23 AM

Quote :

"If you don't want to bow your head at their dinner table, then don't dine with practicing Christians. No one's forcing you."

So my only options are to either dine with christians and bow my head, or don't dine with christians at all? Guess I better cancel my plans to visit my father every Thanksgiving.

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 10:25 AM. Reason : fucking morons ITT]

12/10/2010 10:24:30 AM

"If you don't want to bow your head at their dinner table, then don't dine with practicing Christians assholes. No one's forcing you."

ftfy. I wouldn't eat dinner with anyone that makes a stink about this anyway. A vast majority of them don't. They aren't looking up at you anyway and if they are they won't say anything because then they'll be exposed.

12/10/2010 10:42:10 AM