Ahmet

you keep saying you want something really traction-limited...

12/14/2010 9:18:48 PM

I do want something traction limited, but not only w/throttle, and I want feedback from controls. There's so much to complain about that car, I felt like I was piloting starship enterprise. Go in this direction, warp speed engage. Brake feel was sup bar, steering is numb, shifter is cumbersome, the car's too big and floaty. Sure power is great, engine tone is outstanding, but it doesn't rev that high and power alone is not enough to make up for the rest of the car.

Dude, I keep telling you to let me give you a ride in the 996. I've had a C5, I even had it at VIR @the same time as one of my 996s, since I was interested in comparing them. I drove something like 3 laps in the vette, and continued in the Porsche, there's no comparison, seriously... You of all people I think would really appreciate it.

12/14/2010 9:40:50 PM

Oh, no doubt. The 'Vette is not really my kind of sports car, and I'll be the first to acknowledge its shortcomings (other than than I'm indifferent to how high an engine revs...I love both the F20 and the LS6)...but my God, it's a damn entertaining car to drive. I won't keep this car for 5 years, but neither am I looking to sell it next month.

Highs: Hammer of God power delivery, and sounds the part. Anaconda-like grip.

Lows: Almost everything else.


I can't wait to get it to a track...it feels clumsy and aloof (for such a capable car) in routine commuting, but when I push it a little, it seems to be a little more in its element (although the steering is indeed an abomination). I don't want to track it until I at least replace the tires and fix the driver's seat (it rocks a little under acceleration/braking).

12/14/2010 10:14:34 PM

Word of warning, I've had maybe 7 cars go off track around me. I can recall only 4 making significant contact w/a wall, every one was a Corvette, and every one was exiting a turn. I've never lost control of a car on power, but if you feel like you might, be gingerly w/that car.

Which brings me to a noteworthy mention, as far as anything from prior to ~2005, the C5 z06 has THE best "performance" stability control system I've ever experienced. It's actually rather impressive.

12/14/2010 10:25:02 PM

I haven't driven much other stuff (and probably haven't driven anything in anger, at least any significant amount) with stability control...so I don't have much to compare it to. Most of my time in the 'Vette has been with my 4-year old riding shotgun, but the times I've gotten to drive it solo, I've turned the wick up a little, and engaged the stability control a couple of times (exiting onramps, etc).

It is awfully damned easy to get power oversteer in a big way with that car. I can definitely see it getting away from you on a corner exit if you had the "Active Handling" disabled and got even a little heavyhanded with the throttle.

[Edited on December 14, 2010 at 10:30 PM. Reason : have you driven a Z06, or just regular C5s?]

12/14/2010 10:30:13 PM

I've driven both quite a bit (my C5 had more power than a stock Z06 also). I've also driven lots of other high power/torque cars as well (Viper, etc.), but if I'm out of shape, I'm more likely to be carrying too much speed at the apex, or braking too deep to complete a pass or something like that.

Reminds me of that test in the 90s where they had 7 drivers testing 7 cars, NSX, 968, 993, Supra, F355, Viper, C5. The 968 was voted the best handling, even though 3 of the 7 drivers spun it and said they felt like they didn't do anything to provoke the car, but the remaining 4 thought it was the best handling car they'd ever driven. My roommate spun my 944 at an auto-x 2 times, the same set up that got me 2nd place in the finals!

Anyway, so I think the C5 is a bit polarizing like that. If you tell me where you're taking the car, I could give you a couple of pointers. @VIR, it would be to lift before the kink on the back straight, enter the upper S' slowly and gradually accelerate, and avoid the curbing on power at the lower S. If there's a hint of moisture in the air, FORGET about coming anywhere near the curbing on power. This brings up a different point though, if you leave stability on, you're not going to learn as much (since it really is that good about keeping your pace high, and seeming non-intrusive), but if you turn it off, you may joint the ranks of wrecked Corvettes.

BTW, yes I agree it's a superb car to monkey around in, just not a good one to be precise with.

12/14/2010 10:43:00 PM

oh, no, there's nothing precise about it. Reference the previous page where I described it as a chainsaw or a cage fighter. Everything about it is brute force. Heavy steering, shifter that would be really good if it was in a tractor, power delivery up to NASA's standards, enough lateral grip to permanently alter your eyeglasses prescription--but complete inability to communicate to the driver (it's like the car says, "just close your eyes, cross your fingers, and keep cranking on that steering wheel. You'll pussy out before I run out of grip, so why do you care if you can't tell what's going on?")

It's sort of like dating a bipolar stripper (which I also did once briefly, back in college). It's just a hot mess that's guaranteed to be a thrill ride in all the best and worst ways, and you know that going in. You aren't looking to settle down with her forever or anything, but it's something worth doing for a while, as long as the entertainment/sensory overstimulation outweigh the lack of class, finishing, poise, and ability to communicate like a reasonable adult, and the propensity to flip out in a colossal way at the most minimal provocation. Once you've had enough and it's no longer worth it, you swap her out for her roommate a Porsche or BMW.

[Edited on December 14, 2010 at 11:02 PM. Reason : ]

12/14/2010 10:51:03 PM

Both of your expectations are too high or your tastes excessively refined. When I drove a C5 Z06 I was impressed with everything but the power, well and of course the interior. It's not that big of a car first of all. Most performance cars are at least 3500lbs these days. It's only heavy to people who drive Miatas and s2000's. The steering is fine, it's not amazing but there are plenty of other "performance" cars out there that are equal or worse. The throttle-on oversteer is fine. It's worse than a lot of underpowered cars but it's nothing like a RWD car with a big turbo. The shifting is crude and certainly doesn't feel like a Miata, but there are plenty of shitboxes that are worse.

as for the power, it feels like every other LS1 although it is of course a little faster. It's not like an LS7 C6 Z06, and it sure as hell doesn't feel anywhere near as torquey as a supercharged V8 of any sort.

12/15/2010 2:05:27 AM

You say our expectations are too high, yet you're the one not impressed w/the power. I'm actually blown away by that motor. A ricerboy turbo car may feel more impressive, but the z06 has usable power, w/very fine throttle response (both precise, and linear). I'm calling it like I see it. The z06's steering is (much) worse than an(any) M3/911. If you're coming from a Japanese background, I can see why you'd feel that it's acceptable, as the Japanese don't do steering (or brake) feel very well. S2000's OK for the steering, and the Evo 8/9 are decent w/the brakes, but those are exceptions. I'd say the FD RX-7 was great, but that car hasn't been sold here in a while, and you can't compare a Miata in any meaningful way to a z06 and still keep a straight face.

I never argued it's weight, I think it FEELS heavy, a lot of that is the sheer size of it, no getting around it's enormous wheelbase. It feels absolutely ridiculous to drive, I can be more precise w/a 5 series. BTW, I also think it's throttle on characteristics are acceptable, but I'm giving fair warning, I have never seen a car get wrecked as often at the intermediate/advanced run groups as a C5 z06 and they're always at corner exit, on power. Alas I think that has more to do with suspension tuning (particularly in the rear) and... lack of steering feel. :o

Bite me, that's how I feel about the car. You're the luckier one though, if you think the C5's great in so many ways, but power's not impressive, you can fix that easily, and then you'll have quite the car... by the numbers.

12/15/2010 2:21:53 AM

[Edited on December 15, 2010 at 6:41 AM. Reason : I suggest bad ideas when I'm up watching the baby]

12/15/2010 6:35:48 AM

Ahmet...

What are your thoughts on the late 90s vipers?

12/15/2010 7:36:54 AM

I feel like the high incidence of corvette wrecks could also be due to their owner demographic; old fart waxers who just started taking it to the track.

12/15/2010 8:06:25 AM

the power feels different in the c5/z06 than say your traditional rwd big v8 car. In my lt1 trans am, when i floored it, the whole front of the car would pick up. The vette, tons more power, it doesn't lift up as bad. It sort of launches you forward. Completely different feeling.

12/15/2010 9:24:45 AM

i agree completely with duke equating a c5 to a chainsaw. it can do amazing things, but it's almost never pretty and you don't really appreciate it until you look back at the carnage you've unleashed with it.

12/15/2010 10:05:37 AM

Quote :

"the power feels different in the c5/z06 than say your traditional rwd big v8 car."

LS1/LS6 has a flatter torque curve than the truck-like low end torque you get from an LT1 or an older small block Chevy. It also doesn't kick like a V8 with a blower or spray, and in that sense it's a bit underwhelming. Considering the torque curve of some BMW engines I can see how an LS1/LS6 would be impressive in comparison. I've never driven any 911 so I can't compare them.

Coming back to the C5/Z06 steering: it's better than most "sporty coupes" and pony cars that people may consider if they aren't sure they want to spend money on a Corvette, which IMO is plenty good enough. With the heavy 'feel' and wheelbase, again compared to recent sporty coupes and pony cars it's not so big.

Quote :

"I feel like the high incidence of corvette wrecks could also be due to their owner demographic; old fart waxers who just started taking it to the track."

definitely

[Edited on December 15, 2010 at 2:56 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2010 2:54:59 PM

Quote :

"I feel like the high incidence of corvette wrecks could also be due to their owner demographic; old fart waxers who just started taking it to the track."

Based on what Ahmet said, that's not the case.

Quote :

"I have never seen a car get wrecked as often at the intermediate/advanced run groups as a C5 z06 and they're always at corner exit, on power"

You don't get into the intermediate/advanced run groups without knowing what you're doing.

12/15/2010 4:18:42 PM

Quote :

"It also doesn't kick like a V8"

no, it pretty much pulls hard all the time, haha

Quote :

"Coming back to the C5/Z06 steering: it's better than most "sporty coupes" and pony cars"

Even that might be arguable, but in any case, it's irrelevant. A Z06 Corvette isn't a "sporty coupe" or a pony car...it's a no-shit sports car, and in that class, the steering is a complete abortion.

Quote :

"If you're coming from a Japanese background, I can see why you'd feel that it's acceptable, as the Japanese don't do steering (or brake) feel very well. S2000's OK for the steering, and the Evo 8/9 are decent w/the brakes, but those are exceptions."

Agreed on the Evo's brakes and the S2000's steering. I also think the Evo has very good steering, although I know we've pretty much agreed to disagree on that point.

Quote :

"as for the power, it feels like every other LS1 although it is of course a little faster. It's not like an LS7 C6 Z06, and it sure as hell doesn't feel anywhere near as torquey as a supercharged V8 of any sort."

Jesus, how much do you want? A car can be fast as shit without being as strong as a C6 Z06...and if a C5 Z06 isn't torquey enough for you, you need a Cummins, not a supercharger.

Quote :

"It's not that big of a car first of all. Most performance cars are at least 3500lbs these days. It's only heavy to people who drive Miatas and s2000's. The steering is fine, it's not amazing but there are plenty of other "performance" cars out there that are equal or worse. The throttle-on oversteer is fine. It's worse than a lot of underpowered cars but it's nothing like a RWD car with a big turbo. The shifting is crude and certainly doesn't feel like a Miata, but there are plenty of shitboxes that are worse."

1. It is fucking HUGE for a sports car.
2. No, it is not all that heavy.
3. The steering sucks something awful.
4. Nasty oversteer characteristics are not "fine", but I think that maybe Chevy went with aggressive suspension tuning on this car, knowing the active handling system would let them get away with it.
5. The shifter is acceptably positive in its action, but it's heavy, has VERY long throws, and looks like it belongs in a Peterbilt. It's definitely not in the "plus" column--it's neutral at best and probably in the "minus" column, but not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.


Here's the thing...when Ahmet and I say the steering sucks or the shifter sucks or whatever, we understand that they're not half-bad compared to, say, a school bus, or maybe even a Kia or a 10-year old F-body. By $50-60k dollar sports car standards, these things are fucking piss poor, along with the interior, etc.

That isn't to say that it isn't an impressive car--I mean, I'm not a 'Vette hater, I'm a 'Vette owner--it's just that there are numerous things about it that really suck, and I'll be the first to acknowledge them.

12/15/2010 6:22:28 PM

haha, I just downshifted from 4th to 3rd at 70 mph and stabbed the throttle...the traction control engaged and chopped the throttle, haha.



I really need to figure out how to solve the wheel hop problem. it is so fucking annoying...like, you can almost never give it WOT in 1st or 2nd gear without it hopping. You pretty much have to be going 60-70 mph before you can put all the power down.

12/20/2010 1:48:50 PM

I still spin NT05 nittos all over the place. You would almost need a R compound tire during the hot summer to plant the power in 1st and 2nd.

12/20/2010 1:52:33 PM

You guys are so picky :/

12/20/2010 1:54:52 PM

^^^Duke what tires do you have on the Z06?

12/20/2010 2:29:03 PM

Pilot Sports (not PS2s). Prob gonna put Nitto NT05s on it...would go up to 305 series, but nobody makes them except for R-comps (as best as i can tell)

12/20/2010 3:12:15 PM

305 is as a wide as they get for Nt05s. Wish they made a 315.

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 3:43 PM. Reason : s]

12/20/2010 3:43:28 PM

they don't make a 305 series NT05. They make a 315, but not in 18" size.

12/20/2010 3:58:23 PM

correct, forgot it was 295.

I had 315 falkens on the rear when I bought mine.

12/20/2010 4:25:09 PM

No more Star Specs? Or do they not make them in the right size?

12/20/2010 4:26:24 PM

that's crazy torque. can you fit viper's 18" 335s?

12/20/2010 4:31:29 PM

hahahah your traction problems are the same as my civic. Atleast the entire front end doesn't hop!!!!!!!

12/20/2010 4:57:15 PM

I think 305 is the upper limit for stock wheels.

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 5:51 PM. Reason : Star specs don't have big enough sizes. There are really only a few options.]

12/20/2010 5:49:51 PM

I don't think you're missing out much by not getting the starspec. That tire reminds me of the azenis, not very well rounded... Get it?! But seriously.

12/20/2010 10:35:04 PM

Quinn will tell you the star specs are way better than the azenis

[Edited on December 21, 2010 at 8:42 AM. Reason : they're better than the RE050s thats for sure]

12/21/2010 8:42:26 AM

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performance/809/19244611/10002/-1?CT=999

this makes my junk tingle a little...

and i'm not a chevy fan at all

1/18/2011 7:14:52 PM

Nitto NT05s mounted on my C6 Z06 today...night and day difference. Only taken a few corners so far, and I only have replaced the rears, at the moment (couldn't fit all 4 tires in the car to take to the shop). Car pretty much hooks in 2nd gear, as long as you're smooth with the throttle. Wheelspin is GREATLY reduced in 1st, too. Haven't felt them slip a bit in 3rd with the new tires.

1/18/2011 7:18:41 PM

Duke, I gotta admit, the car's a bit rough around the edges. I'd have to take a good day or so to get where I felt comfortable really flogging it.

About the shifter...it sucks, but it's not about the gating or the throws. I'd gladly take longer throws to have an easier box to shift. It's about finesse to me, and that gearbox feels too clunky; I can't caress it into gear.

Can't remark on the steering; didn't use it much, lol...

The only other complaint I have, other than the Cavalier interior, is that throttle transition (on/off) is a bit too abrupt. But then I think I could tame that a little more with a day or so.

I'd own it.

1/18/2011 10:27:38 PM

^^ Wait I thought you had a C5 Z06?

1/18/2011 10:30:20 PM

^^(rough around the edges in terms of refinement of C5s in general, not the condition of my particular example, he means. )

Yeah, like I said...it has huge power and huge grip. It's pretty decent at fuel economy, exterior styling, braking, and general comfort (seat comfort, ride quality, etc). It sucks balls at everything else.

It has a lot of SIGNIFICANT shortcomes, but I still appreciate it for what it is.



^ dammit, sorry. typo. buddy I work with just sold a C6 Z06, though, and another guy is thinking of selling his E46 M3 and buying one.

[Edited on January 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM. Reason : ]

1/18/2011 10:33:12 PM

In terms of refinement, you are correct. The car is beautiful. It's in great shape. But it's definitely a brute force car.

I'd still own it.

1/18/2011 10:41:47 PM

Yep, it's pretty much the exact opposite of what I typically go for in a sports car, and it's a fucking trip to drive, anyway.

1/18/2011 11:03:54 PM