Quote :

" until the British Mandate that the state of Israel was established again, and then Jews started moving back in."

The funny thing is we're helping a group of people who are clearly not indigenous to that region. One can say that we're in support of all of the Jewish, but the predominate faction that is getting the benefit and power there is the ashkenazi and many of the native ethic, yet religiously jewish, population are not happy about that either.

The issue is largely support of white peoples taking over the region of brown peoples. The US claims to regret its history and how their land came into power yet they continually fund another nation exhibiting the same racist and unscrupulous behavior.

7/19/2010 4:52:01 PM

^

7/19/2010 4:54:31 PM

Quote :

"Plenty of secular nutcases in America exporting money and ideology to Israel as well "

the majority of which do so for economic gain. They dont give any shits about jews or browns, they just like it as an offshoring destination under us protection. These people could be reasoned with if you provided the same opportunities in the US.

Im sure there are some legit secular racists backing them from the US, but they're pretty rare. The massive bulk of support is for religious reasons. yes yes, not all arabs are muslim, but most americans dont know that. Arab is synonymous with muslim and thats the reason they're hated. You give the american education system too much credit by trying to make it out as pure racism.

7/19/2010 5:03:52 PM

Quote :

"The funny thing is we're helping a group of people who are clearly not indigenous to that region."

I'm not going to argue that ashkenazi jews are a very large part of Israel, but it's no coincidence that the beginnings of zionism date to the same period as the rise of more rabid anti-semitism in the arab world or the fact that jewish enclaves in arab countries are now almost non-existant, though they were fairly common as late as 1948.

7/19/2010 7:06:47 PM

Quote :

"it's no coincidence that the beginnings of zionism date to the same period as the rise of more rabid anti-semitism in the arab world or the fact that jewish enclaves in arab countries are now almost non-existant, though they were fairly common as late as 1948."

The arrows

7/19/2010 7:26:28 PM

^^

I think your conclusion as to why the enclaves of jewish countries have dwindled is premature. The establishment of a firm Jewish settlement with ties both to religion and a mentality of ethnic promotion has been the strongest contributing factor to the reduction Jewish populations in arab countries. I don't deny that a hostile environment was a motivating factor for this diaspora, but it is a hostility that was exacerbated by the previously mentioned displacement of brown people for people with a european appearance and an allegiance to a western agenda.

7/19/2010 9:11:21 PM

It's not a conclusion by any means; certainly the creation of Israel didn't help arab opinion of jews.

My only point is that a large number of jews were already living in the middle east and suffering persecution a good while before Israeli foreign policy was being cited as an excuse to dislike them. To simply say that they are clearly not indigenous is a bit of a half-truth, the number of "indigenous" jews were simply diluted by the large number of refugees who settled there after te Holocaust.

I'll also be the first to say that the Balfour Declaration was nothing but wartime pandering to jewish groups.

7/20/2010 12:06:14 AM

In my original post I acknowledged that there are indigenous Jews still in the area, but the large majority of the Jews who are in Israel to date are not indigenous- roughly 10% or so are indigenous, and a few more are Lemba. It is this foreign group who controls the Rabbinic power structure that organizes and directs policy and are the group with whom western countries identify and support.

Early twentieth century arab "antisemitism" was actually a distaste for zionism that was brought on by the flood of Ashkenazi starting from the late 1800's and continuing well into the second world war.
While I cannot deny these families were there prior to WW2 and the official establishment of Israel, I cannot in good conscience describe them as indigenous.

[Edited on July 20, 2010 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

7/20/2010 1:45:30 PM

Quote :

"Early twentieth century arab "antisemitism" was actually..."

It's funny how it always turns out to be the Jews' fault for antisemitism

[Edited on July 20, 2010 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/20/2010 3:26:58 PM

some times people are disliked for a reason.

[Edited on July 20, 2010 at 4:58 PM. Reason : reword]

7/20/2010 4:58:04 PM

^ wow... So its cool to hate a race of people based on stereotypes or the actions of a few?

7/20/2010 5:58:44 PM

Quote :

"While I cannot deny these families were there prior to WW2 and the official establishment of Israel, I cannot in good conscience describe them as indigenous."

Then where exactly were they indigenous?

7/20/2010 6:41:49 PM

^^
If actions are transgressed by a many and those actions either supported outright or by neglecting to condemn them then I would find general distrust and frustration with the group to be a natural response.

^

Are you asking to where European Jews are indigenous? Judaism as a religion spread throughout Europe. Those who are Ashkenazi primarily descendants of a few men and even fewer women who came from the middle east, moved into eastern europe and intermarried/converted those they married over a millennium ago. Ashekenazi's are no more indigenous to that region than a guy who is 1/16 native american and the rest white should be considered indigenous to the United States.

7/21/2010 8:25:40 AM

Quote :

"If actions are transgressed by a many and those actions either supported outright or by neglecting to condemn them then I would find general distrust and frustration with the group to be a natural response. "

So we are talking about Hamas and the general muslim community? Just trying to see if you are being consistent.

Because there are a LOT more jewish people that condemn Israel than there are muslims who condemn islamist supremacists.

7/21/2010 8:40:14 AM

^ In many cases it's an issue of education don't you think?

7/21/2010 8:44:29 AM

Not really - it just sounds like you're making weak excuses.

7/21/2010 8:51:20 AM

Or referring to reality which isn't as easy and simple and clean cut as your pathetic suburban engineer post-college shut-in's life

7/21/2010 8:54:55 AM

JEWS

7/21/2010 8:56:07 AM

Quote :

"So we are talking about Hamas and the general muslim community? Just trying to see if you are being consistent."

I would say there are no issues having a general suspicion of Hamas and finding their actions distasteful. The general muslim community does not deserve such judgement because the malfeasant actions of muslim governments are not disproportionate to the number of these governments or the muslim people.

Quote :

"Because there are a LOT more jewish people that condemn Israel than there are muslims who condemn islamist supremacists."

This is outright inaccurate, and I think you may know that. Since 9/11 the muslim community both at home and abroad have actively petitioned against the majority of violent acts committed by a few extremist. Conversely, even with official sanctions and condemnations of human rights violations, Israel continues to disregard the will of the international community and repeatedly sponsors state sanctioned discrimination and terrorism. The majority of Jewish people (specifically those in Israel) do not condemn these actions and go a step further by prosecuting those who do through the backing of the ADL, AIPAC, and a cry of antisemitism.

Which brings me to a point I should have made earlier when you said...

Quote :

"It's funny how it always turns out to be the Jews' fault for antisemitism"

I never said that or anything like that. What I made clear in my comment was that the antisemitism being discussed wasn't antisemitism at all, but rather a distaste for Zionism. Being incapable of making this distinction is what allows Israel to get away with many of the actions that would otherwise be met with serious condemnation or force.

7/21/2010 10:45:07 AM

If there's one thing I've learned about IRSeriousCat from all his posts on TWW, it's that he has a serious distaste for Ashkenazi Jews.

7/21/2010 12:44:00 PM

Largely due to the tendency for the Ashkenazi to treat Mizrahi and Sepharic jewery as second class citizens. Its a trait pervasive in the culture of modern jewery. I also am not a fan of Zionism, which is a directive largely directed by the Ashkenazi. It is not as if my distaste is unfounded.

7/21/2010 1:24:55 PM

Seems more like a European trait than a Jewish one, honestly.

7/21/2010 1:28:38 PM

Quote :

"Are you asking to where European Jews are indigenous? Judaism as a religion spread throughout Europe. "

I'd wager that most of their contemporary European neighbors would argue strongly that they aren't indigenous to their country either. Obviously there's no way to know, so we'll have to base my assumption on the centuries of violent anti-semitism in Europe and the popular habit of european governments to expel their jewish populations.

7/21/2010 4:11:31 PM

Quote :

"Obviously there's no way to know"

I think genetic testing would suffice for determining contributing haplogroups and majority ethnic admixture. ***

Quote :

"Obviously there's no way to know, so we'll have to base my assumption on the centuries of violent anti-semitism in Europe and the popular habit of european governments to expel their jewish populations."

I believe that there is some depth missing from your assumption. One could replace europe and european in your comment with middle east and middle eastern and the statement make equal sense, thus, your statement isn't definitive or even appropriately indicative in regards to supporting a theory.


***just did a quick google search*** It would appear that there is significant admixture when examining contributing haplotypes to Ashkenazis. However there is little variation in Y chromosomal contribution indicating a small group of middle eastern men mingled with european women around 2000 years ago. This proves to be the case for the Ashkenazi excluding the Dutch. The dutch have traces of mitochondrial middle eastern origin with significant variation in Y chromosomes.


http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf
and
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?_r=1
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/






[Edited on July 21, 2010 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ***]

7/21/2010 4:51:54 PM

Quote :

"I think genetic testing would suffice for determining contributing haplogroups and majority ethnic admixture. ***"

Sounds like you're advocating that each genetic race remain in or return to their indigenous locality.

This sounds a lot like a racial purity argument.

I am glad you only oppose zionists, though... Just to be clear. You're not a racist, just a proponent of racial purity

7/21/2010 5:30:31 PM

I think you're little genetic studies are just darling, but they don't change the fact that jews were widely despised across europe since they got there and were thrown out of every country but Poland. Small communities of outsiders that are persecuted and kicked across a continent are hardly indigenous. This is in contrast to the Middle East where numerous jewish communities coexisted alongside their muslim and christian neighbors as far back as the first millenia BC.

7/21/2010 5:36:04 PM

^^ Your reasoning is poor and borderline non-existent. I never stated that Ashkenazi should not be allowed in the middle east or wherever they please. To imply otherwise is an intentional misrepresentation of what was stated.

^^
There is gross oversight in your reasoning. Being forced to leave from area to area does not, in anyway, discount an individual as being indigenous to a region. All that such forced relocation implies is that the group being moved is not the group in power. For example, Native Americans in the United States and the Palestinians that are located in Israel/Palestine.

The genetic testing indicating significant european composition is evidence enough to establish the Ashkenazi as indigenous to the European continent and not the middle east.

7/21/2010 8:56:10 PM

Who gives a fuck if they are indigenous you racist motherfucker - they've been living there for hundreds and thousands of years

7/21/2010 8:59:00 PM

Quote :

"Being forced to leave from area to area does not, in anyway, discount an individual as being indigenous to a region. All that such forced relocation implies is that the group being moved is not the group in power."

It does discount it when you consider the fact that forced relocation is due to their being unwelcome outsiders to the actual indigenous people.

Quote :

"The genetic testing indicating significant european composition is evidence enough to establish the Ashkenazi as indigenous to the European continent and not the middle east."

So they screwed some shiksas. Good for them. The women were absorbed into their community, not the other way around.

You're really starting to sound like a legitimate antisemite, but your excuse is that you don't dislike jews, you just dislike the majority of them because they're ashkenazi.

7/21/2010 10:34:50 PM

Quote :

"due to their being unwelcome outsiders"

As far as I've seen you haven't provided any evidence as to this being the reason. Generally speaking it is the acquired status of the jewish community in times of hardship and a difference in religion that allowed them to act as scape goats and mobbed.

Quote :

"So they screwed some shiksas. Good for them. The women were absorbed into their community, not the other way around."

Incorrect. The areas where these Jewish enclaves developed are referred to as the host communities. Host communities is the nomenclature because the jewish groups became a part of their community, contributing in craft and trade with the general community. They merely maintained religion.

Quote :

"You're really starting to sound like a legitimate antisemite, but your excuse is that you don't dislike jews, you just dislike the majority of them because they're ashkenazi."

I have never stated that I dislike Ashkenazi, and have only stated that I do not find them to be the indigenous people of Israel and that I am not a fan of Zionism. Could you further explain how that makes me sound like a legitimate antisemite? I'm curious, because if I am one I should explain to my Jewish family that their Jewish son is, in fact, an antisemite.

[Edited on July 21, 2010 at 10:57 PM. Reason : religion]

7/21/2010 10:55:15 PM

Quote :

"I have never stated that I dislike Ashkenazi, and have only stated that I do not find them to be the indigenous people of Israel and that I am not a fan of Zionism. "

You said you did earlier on this page. Unless you're going to try to argue that "serious distate" and "dislike" are wildly different concepts.

Quote :

"However there is little variation in Y chromosomal contribution indicating a small group of middle eastern men mingled with european women around 2000 years ago. This proves to be the case for the Ashkenazi excluding the Dutch."

That's not what the NY Times article says at all.

[Edited on July 21, 2010 at 11:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2010 11:11:39 PM

Quote :

"Generally speaking it is the acquired status of the jewish community in times of hardship and a difference in religion that allowed them to act as scape goats and mobbed."

Yes, and their difference in religion and the very nature of their closed society contributed to their status as outsiders. I will continue to spell this out for you as needed.

Quote :

"The areas where these Jewish enclaves developed are referred to as the host communities."

That's just absurd. How can you be host to an indigenous people in the very place that they're indigenous to?

Quote :

"I'm curious, because if I am one I should explain to my Jewish family that their Jewish son is, in fact, an antisemite."

Yeah, that's really odd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

7/21/2010 11:52:16 PM

He's actually walking a tricky line here. He doesn't think he's an antisemite because he doesn't believe Ashkenazi Jews are really Jewish.

But he'll deny that using the qualifier that he's always phrased it on TWW as "these people [Lumbees] are more native american than any Ashkenazi is jewish."

[Edited on July 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2010 12:11:49 AM

Who cares which race he hates

Racism is racism

7/22/2010 12:18:31 AM

Quote :

"You said you did earlier on this page. Unless you're going to try to argue that "serious distate" and "dislike" are wildly different concepts."

Sorry if the context was confusing, but I stated that I had a distaste for Zionism, and that my anger towards Ashkenazi develops from their exclusion of other Jewish sects and their aura of superiority.

Quote :

"That's not what the NY Times article says at all."

That is what the other two articles are for. The pdf explicitly mentions the dutch and other eastern enclaves of AJ. While the Dutch lack the Y chromosomal markers they do have mitochondrial middle eastern origin and the NY article acknowledges that middle eastern women did migrate this way, thus the connection. The NY times article also states...

Quote :

"David Goldstein, now of Duke University, reported in 2002 that the mitochondrial DNA of women in Jewish communities around the world did not seem to be Middle Eastern, and indeed each community had its own genetic pattern. But in some cases the mitochondrial DNA was closely related to that of the host community."

...which is representative of what was stated in the other articles, involving different studies, regarding the eastern european AJ. Clearly you did not read the articles.

Quote :

"Yes, and their difference in religion and the very nature of their closed society contributed to their status as outsiders. I will continue to spell this out for you as needed."

I agree with this in part. The difference in religion and closed society was responsible for the AJ being viewed as outsiders, but that does not make them any less indigenous. Use high school as a microcosm, for example. Band geeks or goth kids were viewed and treated as outsiders even though they were equally indigenous to the area and had attended the school as long as others.

Quote :

"That's just absurd. How can you be host to an indigenous people in the very place that they're indigenous to?"

Because they were a cultural (not racial) minority in the region. Host communities is used since there was prime culture and a subculture of sorts.

Quote :

"Yeah, that's really odd."

Now you're really reaching into the realm of logical fallacy. Are you even familiar with the term self-hating jew or were you just attempting a quick "gotcha". The fact that I'm openly Jewish, proud of our history, and am actively practicing differs largely from those who are labeled self-haters. If you want to take the bogus logical fallacy and suggest my disapproval of the Israeli governments modus operandi, then so be it. But from your own link

Quote :

""those who accuse others of being self-haters search for examples of when they have criticized Jews or Judaism but ignore examples of when those they criticize have shown they value being a Jew."[2]"

Quote :

"He's actually walking a tricky line here. He doesn't think he's an antisemite because he doesn't believe Ashkenazi Jews are really Jewish."

Incorrect. I do believe practicing AJs to be Jewish, just not Israeli. I admit that my other quote is misleading int his fact, but in that previous conversation I did not wish to get into the semantics of Jewish vs. Israeli. So to be explicit I consider Ashkenazi to be religiously Jewish and categorically european, but those who consider themselves "Jewish", but aren't practicing I in no way consider Jewish. Do you believe me to be an antisemite, Stein? If so please explain how I am and those who control the Israeli government and treat Mizrahi and Sephardic as second class citizens based on their ethnic origins are not. Actually all can feel free to answer that.

Quote :

"these people [Lumbees] are more native american than any Ashkenazi is jewish."

I'm not certain what you're trying to achieve with this quote. This quote doesn't imply at all that I don't think Ashkenazis are Jewish, or even Israeli. That is, unless, you don't believe lumbees to be indians. I find it funny people who can so openly criticize a group of brown people for pretending to be something different despite their cultural practices can so readily defend a group of white people who in no way represent the place of origin and in many ways have abandoned all practices.

[Edited on July 22, 2010 at 9:22 AM. Reason : question]

7/22/2010 9:14:14 AM

Quote :

"Sorry if the context was confusing, but I stated that I had a distaste for Zionism, and that my anger towards Ashkenazi develops from their exclusion of other Jewish sects and their aura of superiority."

Your context wasn't confusing, it was clear as day. You have a "serious distate" for Ashkenazi Jews. You do mention Zionism by saying "I also am not a fan of Zionism". Backpedal all you want, but it's clear as day.

It makes you either a self-loathing Jew or a racist.

And either way it makes me sick.

Quote :

"I do believe practicing AJs to be Jewish, just not Israeli."

You realize there are many Ashkenazi in Israel, right? Or are you of the belief that as a Sephardic Jew, you're more Israeli than the people that were born in, live in and fight for the country? All because your big nose is browner than their big nose?

7/22/2010 9:55:32 AM

^ Is an Ashkenazi crying about Mizrachi racism lmao a bloo bloo bloo ;_;

Anyway it's worth pointing out that "Israeli" is a nationality, and many non-Jewish Arabs are Israelis.

7/22/2010 10:03:52 AM

I'm one of those "Can't we all get along" Jews - ain't no reason for no Jew-on-Jew crime. We got movies to make.

7/22/2010 11:05:36 AM

haha wait, you're jewish?

7/22/2010 11:23:37 AM

Quote :

"Your context wasn't confusing, it was clear as day. You have a "serious distate" for Ashkenazi Jews. You do mention Zionism by saying "I also am not a fan of Zionism". Backpedal all you want, but it's clear as day."

I didn't state that I have a distaste for Ashkenazi. Those were your words. I responded that with what my actual issues are Ashkenazi and then stated that additionally I have problems with Zionism and do dislike zionists.

Quote :

"It makes you either a self-loathing Jew or a racist."

Please read above in my response to Mr. Joshua, I do not fit the description of a self-loathing jew since I am in many ways proud of my Jewish culture. Stein, I find it interesting that you chose not to describe how I can be considered a racist or self-loathing but Ashkenazi and the power structure of the Israeli government' aren't even though they repeatedly operate in the same fashion regarding Mizrahi and Sephardic.

Quote :

"You realize there are many Ashkenazi in Israel, right? Or are you of the belief that as a Sephardic Jew,"

Since I really don't identify with the newly established state of Israel since it displaced native peoples for european settlers as well as is forbidden based on religious law that is not what I meant by Israeli. When I discuss Israel I only use it in the historical context. That was ambiguous and for that I apologize. Also, for the record I am Mizrahi, although there are some people who consider Sephardic to be Ashkenazi and Mizrahi to be Sephardic, so maybe that is what you meant. Regardless, yes I consider a Mizrahi Jew to be more closely related to historical Israelite than Ashkenazi. Do you disagree with this sentiment, Stein?

7/22/2010 11:58:12 AM

^^^Wait, you're jewish? I thought stein was short for some german name. Too bad...the Germans are an ethnicity that actually respects human rights.

7/22/2010 12:20:02 PM

There were German Jews....

7/22/2010 12:21:46 PM

Nah man, the proper germans, not the ones that persecute arabs.

7/22/2010 12:38:05 PM

l

do {
o
} while (funny = true);

l

7/22/2010 12:40:39 PM

Bitch went pseudo-code on my ass.

7/22/2010 12:42:24 PM

Quote :

"I didn't state that I have a distaste for Ashkenazi. "

Maybe you can follow this more closely:

I said: If there's one thing I've learned about IRSeriousCat from all his posts on TWW, it's that he has a serious distaste for Ashkenazi Jews.

You said immediately after: Largely due to the tendency for the Ashkenazi to treat Mizrahi and Sepharic jewery as second class citizens.

Now, unless you're challenged in the head, that sentence states why you have a distaste, in no way, shape, or form refutes that you have a distaste.

In fact, you go on to say "It is not as if my distaste is unfounded."

You can try to pull the whole "oh no, I meant ZIONISM" card again, but you clearly didn't.

Quote :

"^^^Wait, you're jewish? I thought stein was short for some german name. Too bad...the Germans are an ethnicity that actually respects human rights."

Stein is a German - it means beer mug.
Stein or [blank]-stein is also a very common Jewish last name. We also do rare metals!

7/22/2010 1:46:17 PM

Quote :

"Use high school as a microcosm, for example. Band geeks or goth kids were viewed and treated as outsiders even though they were equally indigenous to the area and had attended the school as long as others."

A better example would be a group of students who transferred to a new school after being expelled from one in a different part of the world and who the old students dislike because many feel like the new clique of foreign students crucified their lord over easter break at their old school.

Quote :

"Because they were a cultural (not racial) minority in the region. Host communities is used since there was prime culture and a subculture of sorts."

Host community/culture is generally used when talking about immigrants, which is exactly my point.

Quote :

"The fact that I'm openly Jewish, proud of our history, and am actively practicing differs largely from those who are labeled self-haters."

I thought that maybe I just missed your many jewish pride threads on here so I did a search for everytime you posted "jew". Believe it or not, the vast majority of the results were you badmouthing other jews.

http://tiny.cc/j2roq

Quote :

"Stein is a German - it means beer mug."

and stone!

[Edited on July 22, 2010 at 1:52 PM. Reason : URL]

7/22/2010 1:50:41 PM

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/07/22/exclusive-records-show-military-surveyed-troops-attitudes-towards-jews-in-1940s/

Quote :

"Military Surveyed Troops’ Attitudes Towards Jews In 1940 # “There is nothing good about Jews.” (Agree: 86%, Disagree: 13%) # “Jews are out to rule the world.” (Agree: 27%, Disagree: 73%) # “The Jews always get the best of everything.” (Agree: 30%, Disagree: 70%) # “You can always tell a Jew by the way he looks.” (Agree: 61%, Disagree: 39%) # “Jews are the biggest goldbricks in the Army. (Agree: 51%, Disagree: 49%) # “A Jew will always play you for a sucker.” (Agree: 48%, Disagree: 52%)"

7/22/2010 2:08:16 PM

Quote :

"and stone!"

Yeah, but this:


Is cooler than:

7/22/2010 2:19:12 PM

signed.

7/22/2010 2:20:44 PM