Too many people arguing over a tin steel can...



[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 10:10 AM. Reason : .]

9/1/2009 10:09:13 AM

Quote :

"Lotus spent no expense making their cars light weight, where as Mini (I dare to say) is more focused on producing cars that are affordable by compromising with heavier, though cheaper, materials. I'm sure if the Elise/Exige were made from steel body panels and such, it would probably weigh at least 250lbs more. Oh and keep in mind glass is heavy. The mini has much more glass than the Elise/Exige. Probably 75lbs more."

Actually the exact opposite is true. Lotus chose bonded aluminum strictly for the cost savings. If you read about the history of the chassis and platform, they went with aluminum because it was the only material they could afford to produce in small production numbers. The Lotus engineers have always said that if they had access to the steel unibody construction plants of the big manufacturers, the Elise/Exige would have been lighter, cheaper and more rigid, but they would have needed to produce 10-20x the production numbers to recoupe the equipment costs.

Steel unibody construction is INSANELY light, rigid and cheap. All the added weight in modern cars comes majorly from sound dampening and added safety features (airbags, crumplezones et al).

9/1/2009 10:34:39 AM

Well then... I stand corrected. haha.

Thanks for the education

9/1/2009 11:15:46 AM

lol, I read Stephen's post and was thinking "Noen is going to school you."

This was covered in another thread, lol.

9/1/2009 11:18:37 AM

Haha. I didn't read that thread/post, obviously. DA MOAR U NO

But STILL, glass is heavy. Minicooper has more glass than the Loti mentioned. At least I got SOMETHING RIGHT.

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM. Reason : .]

9/1/2009 12:01:42 PM

damn glass. I think the rear hatch glass on my integra weighs at least 75lbs

9/1/2009 12:16:08 PM

I like the look of it

but that little shit is gonna be too heavy and FWD

can you put an STi drivetrain in it?

9/1/2009 12:27:51 PM

My entire s2000 hardtop weighs about 40-45lbs. I don't think glass is as heavy as you think. Its just an awkward lift angle.

9/1/2009 12:28:19 PM

Rear 944 hatch glass is 75lbs. I believe a lexan replacement is 12lbs.

9/1/2009 12:31:29 PM

Glass is indeed quite heavy. The S2k hardtop has a fairly small glass window... Also, that thing's probably not reinforced structurally, unlike the non removable roof of any modern car would be.

9/1/2009 12:32:13 PM

As much as I'd like to praise Lotus' use of aluminum extrusions and adhesives as the reason for the elise's light weight, it's a bit of a red herring. The original planning of the elise was a steel chassis without roof or doors, sort of like a super seven but mid-engined. I remember reading somewhere that at least one Lotus engineer thought they could have made the elise the same weight using steel and it would have been dramatically cheaper (EDITED FROM HERE) on a PER UNIT BASIS IF THEY WANTED TO BUILD A TON OF THEM, but that Lotus Engineering was enthralled with the latest adhesives at the time and wanted to develop that tech for cars. Also, Lotus, which was really only selling the decades-old Esprit and fwd Elan at the time, didn't feel that it needed to offer a car of that sort at a price point that would have had such a large demand. (/edit)

It wouldn't have had the resources to build so much volume anyway (edit) maybe it would be more accurate to say they didn't want to embark upon the endeavor to build a car of the elise's type in gigantic volumes, and that they might have been able to acquire/ contract-out the manufacturing volume to a better-suited group (/edit).

I suppose they felt it was "more Lotus" to sell fewer units of a more interesting car for more money. (edit: what Noen said was better. It wasn't that they wanted a limited niche, it was that the aluminum extrusions and adhesives gave them the ability to sell the car at the volume they wanted without the steel startup costs).

You could argue that the experience of building the Elise's chassis for so many years in so many variations is what made possible Lotus' new semi-modular VVA architecture that allows many common components for the Evora and upcoming Esprit and even potentially a front-engine model, and was therefore the right bet, but that hardly proves that aluminum alone is the reason for the elise's low weight. Mazda's miata doesn't try nearly as hard to approach the bleeding edge for weight savings and yet it's only 400-500 lbs heavier than an elise, even with all of its typical-automobile specification of features, low sills, and primarily steel construction.

I mean really, you could make an argument that the Lotus twins are barely-acceptable road cars because they really ought to be considered road legal track cars. In that respect, they're the vehicles that are bloated, and not just because the current model weighs nearly 500 lbs more than the 118hp original. As among roadworthy "track" cars, the elise and exige look pretty luxurious and lardy. Alternatives include all sorts of skeletal devices like ariel atoms, caterham super sevens and other seven-inspired vehicles like the miata-derived westfields, there's the ktm xbow, the brooke double-R, and dozens and dozens of imitations of those models available as kits, all of which are sub-1300 lb cars.

By comparison, the Mini hatch, which as Noen stated, weighs 2700 lbs in JCW trim, is a car that can seat 4 people without a shoehorn being employed, and can take them a considerable distance at excellent mpg over the course of the trip, provided that none of them are particularly tall or have much luggage. It would thus be an economy car, except that the content of the build materials and available equipment and sophistication of the chassis is completely removed from the typical car of that size. It's more like a fwd bmw that bmw didn't want to badge a bmw than a true Mini... sooooo......
Therefore Noen hit the nail on the head in one respect by saying that the original Mini was a 1500 lb car and that the current hatch could weigh less. But unless your drive to work looks like a racetrack or a rally stage, I'd bet that the original mini takes a committed Issigonis fan to look like a better daily drive option to the current car. Where the current Mini claws back from this objection that it weighs too much is that building a Mini that adheres in a retro-way absolutely to the original Mini would be to lose track of what a Mini ought to be compared to the current automotive fleet. It's supposed to be a car that is fun and safe and spacious but fuel efficient and taunts its own fwd layout with its level of driving satisfaction. In THAT respect, it is far and away the featherlight in its field per performance level, its primary competitors being vehicles like the vw gti, the volvo c30, the ford focus (if they ever get around to bringing us another SVT hatch or a bringing over the euro-spec performance models), and within the european market (which shouldn't be ignored considering what a huge seller the mini is in europe as well as in the U.S., a genuinely impressive achievement considering the disparity of automotive tastes), the renaultsport clio and megane, the alfa MiTo, the Fiat 500, the peugeot 207 and 307 and 308, the subaru impreza hatch models, and the mitsubishi ralliart sportback.

Among those models, the only ones that are lighter are not sold in the United States, and even among those, are also less powerful, let alone built as "solidly." (I'll be the first to admit that this is a subjective observation and not based on something more quantifiable like stiffness or reliability or crash scores).

From THAT perspective (the elise/exige being a lardily-compromised track car whereas the mini is the most hardcore minimalist premium performance hatch), it's the Loti that ought to be ashamed of its weight, whereas the mini is a more committed exercise of minimum weight for an entirely different category of vehicle.

So, to summarize, chiding a mini hatch for its weight, as compared to an elise's weight, in the light of the mini's cooper S hatch's guiding principles that the elise had no chance in hell of ever meeting, is a bit like picking on a Ford Ranger (2009 curb weight range: 3028 lbs-3705) for being too heavy as a pickup truck, completely omitting the fact that the alternatives to a Ford Ranger are the following:

Chevrolet Colorado: 3366-4218 lb
Toyota Tacoma: 3140-4100 lbs
Nissan Frontier: 3600-4400 lbs
Dodge Dakota: ~4000+

It's fine to say that a apple (let's say a crapapple or something) is admirably lighter than an orange, but that's hardly the fault of the orange.
...
...
...
...
The natural reply to this post is to then say:

"While you've justified the weight of the mini cooper S in HATCH bodystyle, this thread is about the 2 seat coupe that is alleviated of the burden of the hatch model's roof and glass weight and if produced in this spec, moves so close to the elise as to be only measurably more useful than the elise while the compromise fails to bring this mini within reasonable weight as compared with the elise."

To which such a poster should anticipate I'd then reply,

"...continuing the apples and oranges metaphor above... what mini has done is cut up and sculpted its orange. The resulting product is less/ fewer of the attributes that appeal about the orange, but now it fits better among people who really wanted something about the size of a crabapple but which still tastes like an orange. Just because someone likes oranges but doesn't have the need to eat a large one doesn't mean that a crabapple of suitable size is what they ought to have instead."

or.... more explicitly (but less clearly, IMHO): a two seat coupe variant spun-off from a vehicle of a particular size designed to be a 4-seat hatch is naturally less optimally designed than if the vehicle were designed to be a two seat vehicle of a particular size in the first place, but that doesn't mean that the compromises made in producing the coupe variant of a particular size renders the vehicle to have all of the disadvantages of other 2-seat vehicles of that same particular size even though the spinoff coupe is now a more similar item to such a purpose-built 2-seat vehicle than the vehicle the coupe was derived from.



Once again, I must end any post taking a position that might be considered deriding a Lotus with the disclaimer that I think Lotuses are frickin awesome and I want one...











.....aaaaaand.... (to address some of the other cars Noen mentioned)... the mini, regardless of whether specced as a coupe or a hatch is by far the most "traffickable" of these performance-oriented small cars, and therefore IMHO makes the most compelling DD.

A mini's torque curve is such that it can accelerate usefully while cruising with traffic in any gear, including 6th (solely based on my opinion based upon a test drive of a mini cooper S over a year ago, not any in-gear acceleration figures), a nice aspect in a car that one might pick to use for the daily slog. A Honda S2000 or mazda miata would be more fun when really pressing on, but the upright seating position of the mini, at roughly the same or less weight (2480 lbs anticipated for JCW or 2414 anticipated for coupe S vs. miata softtop=2447lbs, vs. miata-prht=2593; vs. s2000=2809, vs. s2000CR=2755), delivering similar power from a turbocharger (more accessible torque) instead of a high-rev-limit, with glass in 360 degrees rather than with the visibility of a convertible top, and looking down a hood of about the same height but shorter length and from a higher eye-level, as well as with significantly shorter overall length (145 inches mini cooper S vs. 157.3 miata prht vs. 162.1 s2000), makes for a car that I'd much rather use when attempting to scoot through traffic.

(concession: I nearly said the mini was narrower than the miata and s2000. It isn't. The mini cooper S hatch is ~75 inches while the miata and s2000 are both under 70 inches.)

...... soooo.... sorry for the ridiculous length. But it's all good stuff. seriously... any name calling in there? pretty sure I didn't even use an exclamation point until this one! (<--- there it is)

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 12:47 PM. Reason : whoops. Noen knows lotus history better than me. edited the first two paragraphs to save face.]

9/1/2009 12:39:30 PM

Oh God.

I'm not reading that.

9/1/2009 12:43:27 PM

lol. sorry. Got carried away, but I liked everything I wrote. I even attempted to be self-effacing and complimentary of Noen's perspective, imo. He def knew more about the elise history than I could remember, anyway. In case I haven't already conveyed it to someone, I'd love to own an elise or exige.

From the perspective of someone dreaming of having a very deep and varied garage someday, I am very attracted to the mini, and particularly the coupe variant because it allows for a particular type of driving "fun" in a DD that allows for a completely NON-OVERLAPPING sort of fun driving character in a wide range of other vehicles that might be babied for occasional use, and therefore maximizing the effect of hopping out of one and into another, ALL WITHOUT requiring me to have something even remotely boring or slow for daily transport.

It might be instructive to consider that Jay Leno owns tons of cars but there isn't a single "do-everything" mobile among them, like a bmw m3, because he wants to savor the flavors of each to their maximum effect. This is also probably why Ahmet has had so many cars and is currently a porsche 911 driver, particularly of one that is 2wd and naturally aspirated. That car has a pretty unique FLAVOR.

With a fwd turbo coupe of minimal footprint and weight for a DD, there is a greater potential for having a broad gulf in the driving character between DD and playtime-mobile.

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM. Reason : last paragraph GRAMUR SUKCED.]

9/1/2009 1:15:55 PM

If you think you need something smaller than an S2000 to dodge through traffic then you're one wreckless motherfucker

9/1/2009 1:20:11 PM

good point Ahmet. I had not thought of that (structural support).

I do think the piece of glass is quite large though.

9/1/2009 1:28:21 PM

^^lol. These things are only relative. I suspect the lack of an s2000's "ok, let's get it over 6000" required to zing the mini around is more valuable than the length advantage. I'm currently driving a pretty big sedan, so any of these are tiny compared to what I'm used to.

9/1/2009 1:35:02 PM

^^ Dude you need to edit your responses. That post is 10x longer than it needs to be. I just skimmed it.

You brought up a great comparison though that proves my point.

The Fiat 500 will be coming to the US in a year or two.

The Abarth Assetto Corse (Fiat equivalent of the Mini JCW) costs $4,000 less, has equivalent power/torque (190hp/211 lb-ft of torque) and weight 2050lbs. And has a better crash rating than the Mini. Oh, and better gas mileage.

Thanks for proving my point The mini is bloated for what it is. It, like Smart cars, doesn't do anything particularly well. It's a niche style centric car. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.

9/1/2009 1:40:31 PM

it was three sentences!

9/1/2009 1:41:52 PM

LOL. This thread is full of awesomeness.


I thought your post was greatdanmangt40. Go you for taking the time to write type all that.

9/1/2009 3:15:13 PM

this is the interior of the 2050 lbs Abarth Assetto Corse:


only a lotus driver could think that's suitable for a daily driver or could even remotely sell as a DD in the U.S.

You were probably thinking of the Fiat 500 Abarth.
This is the C&D drive:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q1/2009_fiat_500_abarth-first_drive_review

that car weighs 2282 lbs, a solid 130-150 lbs better than the mini cooper S coupe ought to weigh, and that's over 350 lbs better than what a mini cooper S hatch does currently weigh at 2634 lbs at your nearest U.S. dealer, today. With its 1.4L turbo four with 135 hp, manages 0-60 in 7.9 seconds. Gosh, that'd out-drag a Honda Fit with a manual, maybe. It costs, IN europe the equivalent of $23k, which I suppose is cheaper than the Cooper S coupe will cost, since the Cooper S hatch costs, in fact, $23k as a base price and almost everyone buys a few options.

There is a "hotter" model called the 500 Abarth "Essesse" (say "S...S"), which costs another $7k in "equivalent" U.S. dollars, and that gets you 158 hp. Still a little short of a mini cooper S and now you're definitely paying a premium.

What really irks me though is that you present this as proof that the mini hatch is overweight. The Mini cooper S, at 2634 lbs might be a caricature of its 1500 lb 50-year forefather pioneer of front wheel drive and the general hatchback layout, but the 500 is less a caricature of its 1100 lb rear-engine 13hp 50-year originator than it is a stab at copying the modern mini. Yes, a car can be similarly shaped to a mini and weigh less. You found one. Good job. But it hardly embarasses a mini. It has significantly less interior room and uses smaller engines. Any car can be similar but lighter if you make the right compromises. For example: if you forego doors entirely, you can take a 500 lb chunk out of an elise's curb weight in the form of a similarly-accomodating Javan r1 (javansportscars.com) or even 350 lbs with Lotus' own 2-11. And what do you need that windshield or roof for on your exige, anyway? you don't drive it in the rain, right?

We have no guarantee that fiat's 500 is coming via the partnership with chrysler, and when it does, whether the Abarth will come with it. Also, given the car was designed years before there was any thought that fiat might return to the U.S., just because it did marginally better in Euro NCAP is no guarantee that it will be able to be sold here without modifications that add weight. The Elise gained nearly 200 lbs to bring it to the U.S.

I was really excited about this car, but now I'm kinda sick of talking about it. I still like it a lot, but tdub is wearing on me.

9/1/2009 4:30:50 PM

My MX-3 weighs ~2,450lbs. What now mini cooper?

9/1/2009 4:34:11 PM

One of my students gave me a ride home once when my car was at the garage. He has a Mini Cooper, but I can't remember if it is an S or not. (but it is a manual tranny)

Anyway, he did 100 mph on the highway for a whole 20 miles zipping through traffic from right lane to left and vice versa. What really shocked me was when he took the sloping-up right exit ramp at 75 mph... I looked at him in disbelief, and he looks at me with a smirk and says "It is a Mini Cooper!". Most other cars would have slid off and flown away.

9/1/2009 6:19:35 PM

coupe will be built in Crowley, UK factory.
http://pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=20541

9/3/2009 3:49:06 PM

Hahahhahahahahahaha

Y'all should watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50z3xI1TuZ8

That's part 2 actually... part 1 is just as weird:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAiJvcS4mRk (the weird stuff at in the last 20 seconds)

So those videos point to the Coupe and the Roadster concepts to be shown, even though the videos show women? Does that mean women are like cars, or maybe vice versa?

9/12/2009 3:18:42 AM

british tv is weird. I don't like super-skinny women growling and screaming at me. It feels like a zombie movie.

9/14/2009 3:09:56 AM

this one's even worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox9GnXk7qxc&feature=channel

what part of the shining makes me want to see emaciated women screaming at me or drive a tiny car? I'm still happy for this car's arrival, but still.... awwwwwkwaaaaard....

9/14/2009 3:16:16 AM

Roadster revealed:

9/15/2009 10:04:37 AM

Holy shit. I think I actually like that roadster... Watch out s2k owners...

9/15/2009 10:08:44 AM

then here are 2 high res galleries for you!

Live reveal: http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/frankfurt-2009-mini-coupe-and-roadster-concepts
Vanity shots: http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/mini-roadster-concept

9/15/2009 10:22:22 AM

wow, those things are ugly.

9/15/2009 10:31:34 AM

^^^lol. Not worried here.

9/15/2009 11:01:04 AM

I think the roadster looks better as well. It's FWD. I dont need any more experience with >250hp and FWD to know it's a bad idea.

9/15/2009 11:02:43 AM

I felt a little torque steer from 88hp/98tq in the mx3 the other day! wahoo! GOSH 250+hp has got to be a handfull...


Me- Hey Quinn, why's your right arm bigger than your left?

Quinn- Oh, it's just torque steer. You wouldn't know anything about that you v8 RWD bastard

Me -

9/15/2009 11:11:35 AM

f@*&ed wheel drive

9/15/2009 11:19:10 AM

^meh... how about WEIRD wheel drive. :

post edit:
After going to the gallery on autoblog, I think the JCW bodykit looks a ton better in light colors, all the better to hide the fussiness of the (mostly fake) vents. The crazy bright blue of the coupe concept, combined with the contrasting stripes and more prominent (only by contrast) vents, and THEN with the inverted colors on the roof is just a bit much. I bet a modestly specced coupe would be a lot less revolting to the people who fell on the nastier side of that car's initial cumulative public reaction. So I'm thinking that it'll just look cleaner in production. The less jarring color selection on the roadster tones the overall appearance down a LOT.

I love the roadster's cute little bulging fenders in the trunklid. I might even prefer it to the coupe, but I'm sure if the time came to pull the trigger on a mini, I'd be unable to ignore the significant (safe guess) performance advantage of the lighter coupe. I bet the roadster will weigh about the same as the standard hatch. And where did the mention of 250 hp come from? The JCW has 208 and the cooper S trim has only 172! even at the coupe's reduced weight, I seriously doubt this will be a torque-steering pig.

[Edited on September 15, 2009 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2009 4:34:45 PM

That car looks good! I don't see anything that makes it anything less than the mini that's out now.

9/17/2009 9:28:39 PM

i love the look on the roadster...i'm a sucker for alpine white and those gold stripes set it off...never thought about that color combo before

9/18/2009 1:25:53 AM

let me guess, they will be badged as miniCouper and miniCoonvertable

[Edited on September 18, 2009 at 7:06 AM. Reason : highlight]

9/18/2009 7:06:02 AM

yup

10/15/2009 4:40:48 PM