What a jerk.

I was just trying to get some broader perspective on this. The only opinions I had prior to asking here are those of my classmates (who are in the same situation, and thus generally have the same opinion).

I appreciate anybody who honestly tried to give their opinions on this matter. I'll let you know how it goes. For the record, however, I feel that if teachers do not want a solutions manual to be used as a learning material, it should explicity state so in the syllabus. It's pretty confusing when most professors don't have a problem with it then you have one who does.

4/29/2009 8:12:09 AM

I think you are missing the point of the thread

Quote :

""It seems pretty clear that having the answers to something you are being graded on is outright cheating, no matter how (or whether) you use it.""

Quote :

"http://www.ncsu.edu/stud_affairs/osc/AIpage/acaintegrity.html "12. Submitting for academic evaluation any material in whole or part that has been prepared by another individual(s) or commercial agency." "

Anyone that has been a jerk in this thread has good reason.

Quote :

"It's pretty confusing when most professors don't have a problem with it then you have one who does."

Care to back that up with some documentation from your instructors?

4/29/2009 10:45:53 AM

^^ Why is it the teacher's responsibility to tell you that something is not allowed when it is explicitly prohibited on the university level?

Would you ask a professor at the beginning of the semester whether old tests and solutions manuals are ok to use?

4/29/2009 11:08:18 AM

because college these days is full of the mindset that 'I'll do whatever I have to to pass' and there's a lot of moral equivocation and rationalization of the little stuff

looking at old tests for practice from friends or whoever without the professor's explicit permission is also considered cheating, but that's pretty prevalent too

same thing with the maple rings back in the calc days

plus colekc2 you've been talking a lot of shit about this professor, you're telling me you said the same thing to his face or to the dept head? Because courseEvals are semi-anonymous so that isn't the same thing

4/29/2009 11:18:33 AM

Hurley,

I understand the point of the thread. I asked for opinions or help with the matter and now I've gotten it. I still do not personally consider what I did cheating, but I see how the university may. And I have no documentation, but when I have professors tell us on the first day of class, and I quote:

"I know y'all have solutions manuals, that's why homework is only worth 10%, make sure you learn stuff for the tests."

And I haven't been "talking shit" except for saying he is an ineffective teacher. And yes, I told him when I met with him that I felt like he was not doing a good job of presenting the material and thus we (the class) needed somewhere else to look to learn. I don't see what's wrong with voicing my opinion if I feel that my tuition money isn't being used how I feel it should be.

4/29/2009 11:54:05 AM

Quote :

"I still do not personally consider what I did cheating"

lulz


at least you are well aware of it all.



welcome to TWW

4/29/2009 12:00:24 PM

This has been a good read. Keep us updated. I'm on your side.

4/29/2009 9:31:46 PM

Using a solution manual to learn is not wrong. Using to guide you through a problem is iffy. Copying exactly to get the assignment done is cheating.
Having done 5 semesters of MAE before changing out, the solution manuals can help you learn a lot, especially when you have a teacher that doesn't teach.

4/29/2009 10:34:26 PM

I would say that solutions manuals can be a learning aid and not cheating, but most people fall into this:

Quote :

"we all know you are going to wait till the night before, copy the assignment from the manual, and call it a done deal -- and go on with your life."

which is just as bad as copying someone's homework right before class.


My personal experience is that I fell into the solutions manual trap for one of my first engineering classes. I intended to use the manual for good purposes but then something comes up and you put off really trying to do the HW because it's not due for a week. Then it's due in a couple days and you put of off some more because you have the solutions and they'll be able to help you do it quickly. Next thing you know it's 2AM the night before it's due and you just copy it real quick because you have an 8AM class and you want to get some sleep. I ended up with a C in that class and then never used the solutions again.

As far as more examples, that is what the TA and the professor are for.All of the reasoning you are providing just sounds like you are trying to justify something to yourself that you thought was questionable.

4/29/2009 10:46:49 PM

Quote :

"because college these days is full of the mindset that 'I'll do whatever I have to to pass' and there's a lot of moral equivocation and rationalization of the little stuff"

4/30/2009 9:33:18 AM

For anyone that was wondering how this turned out:

I went to discuss the resolution with my professor yesterday. He was very reasonable, and agreed to record zeros/no credit for the homeworks on which we admitted to having been in possession of a solutions manual. This means I'll get a zero on one of (I think 9?) homeworks, which are 15% of my grade.

He had me sign a sheet admitting to "plagiarism" and "obtaining a teacher solutions manual." Although I didn't plagiarize anything, I figured I'd just let that one go and sign it. From what I understand, this means I have accepted his resolution to the problem and it won't be submitted to the student conduct people.

Thanks for the discussion. For what it's worth, I'm STILL of the opinion that a solutions manual, when used properly, is a valuable learning tool, and thus it should not be against the rules to own one.

I did have one extra curiosity question though: I have a buddy who is in the same situation but is already on academic probation. Is he screwed, or since this isn't technically going to the code of conduct people, is he ok?

4/30/2009 11:24:59 AM

if the prof handles it on his own the kid should be fine

4/30/2009 11:57:09 AM

double secret probation

4/30/2009 12:01:33 PM

Quote :

"I did have one extra curiosity question though: I have a buddy who is in the same situation but is already on academic probation. Is he screwed, or since this isn't technically going to the code of conduct people, is he ok?"

you may or may not be screwed

4/30/2009 2:37:36 PM

Just a question for those of you who continue to feel that using a solutions manual, and thus putting yourself at risk for violating the student code of conduct: Did you ever go to the professor's office during office hours, meet with the TA during their office hours, or email either the TA or the professor which specific questions about what was confusing you on an assignment? Also, did you make an effort to go through and re-read the chapter in your textbook which relates to the problem you were assigned before seeking other peoples' help or in using your solutions manual?

I only ask this because there has never been a problem that I couldn't solve without my TA, professor, or textbook, with the exception of times where my brain simply wasn't working or in the odd case of Dynamics with Chao.

4/30/2009 3:01:07 PM

Did all of the above and there were still plenty of problems I couldn't solve in school Some TAs and teachers definitely were helpful though.

Sid Becker comes to mind for being an awesome TA. And I had a few good teachers in Boles and Cassidy etc. I didn't learn much from Wu in the classroom but he was very open to helping during his office hours. But I definitely had a big chunk of teachers who I didn't learn anything from during class or from their TAs/during office hours.

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 3:37 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 3:28:16 PM

I've never even had to really consider it since most classes in ECE consist not only of mediocre teaching, but of professor-written homeworks with nonexistent solution manuals

basically you do your shit, go to office hrs, or go to TAs (most are cool with study groups for hw too, but some are even finnicky about that even)

4/30/2009 4:17:22 PM

Hurley man, you just assume the worst in everyone. It's not me, but I don't suppose you particularly care. I was just wondering.

4/30/2009 5:06:02 PM

I'm not in agreement that simply possessing a solutions manual is in violation of academic integrity, the university should make this a little more clear or instruct professors to have their policy included in the course syllabus.

4/30/2009 7:15:46 PM

Owning or possessing one shouldn't be against the rules, ideally. They do make for nice study aids, helping you to figure out why you're not getting the correct answer. This assumes, however, that you're doing problems on your own for the sake of review. I acknowledge that can be considered cheating if the problems are instead being done for a grade. So in practice, there has to be a limit or a ban on solution manuals because the temptation to use them the inappropriate way is simply too much for most people to resist.

I'm in favor of solution manuals, but the problem is primarily one of a conflict of interest. I'll take you at your word that you didn't just blindly copy the solutions down, that you worked through the problem first and then checked to see if your answer agreed and attempt to figure out why if it does not. But for every one of you, there are fifty who would simply copy the answer down.

On the other hand, I don't know that people should be put on academic probation for using them, assuming that homeworks don't constitute a major portion of the grade. I say this because people who use them inappropriately are already punishing themselves anyway. If you copy down the answers to the homework and never actually learn the material, you're still going to flunk the tests. Cheat on the homeworks all you want, but you're still responsible for reproducing that understanding of the material come test time. So really, you're only shooting yourself in the foot. I would think that that's punishment enough. Cheating during the test, on the other hand....

4/30/2009 9:13:01 PM

this is college, the reason we sign the academic integrity statement is because they can only "take us at our word" on a lot of things. students that copy homework are not going to do well in the course, and are ultimately just screwing themselves.

if a teacher is really worried about solutions manuals they should just create their own problems, otherwise they need to just accept that some students will cheat but those students are only hurting themselves so who cares

4/30/2009 9:33:50 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but in MOST of the harder math / statistics courses I took (MA/CSC 226, MA405, ST421, ST422, more ST courses I can't remember), the solutions manual was actually encouraged. They sold them in the bookstore along with the actual textbook. Solutions only though. The methods getting to the solution were never documented in full. In some cases, it took the professor 10 minutes and 3 blackboards to detail the methods for single assigned problem. Anybody grading worth a crap will also be checking the student's methods, not just the solution.

In the future, it's a matter of checking assumptions before you get yourself into trouble. You do something illegal in a job, your butt is gone, regardless of whether you knew or not. Ask next time THEN proceed with whatever if you are uncertain about it. Mitigate the risk then move on.

4/30/2009 10:47:15 PM

Perlith:

We're talking about every problem fully worked out with detailed solutions including methods. Most textbooks come with the ANSWERS at least for the odd problems. That's not what this is about.

4/30/2009 10:55:13 PM

man, that final was brutal.

4/30/2009 11:01:34 PM

Quote :

"Hurley man, you just assume the worst in everyone. It's not me, but I don't suppose you particularly care. I was just wondering."

CHOPS MUST BE BUSTED
SHIT MUST BE GIVEN

5/1/2009 8:59:58 AM

annahoward@annahoward.com considers it cheating. Pretty much everyone I know in CE and MAE relies on solutions manuals to get by in their classes though.

5/3/2009 2:20:17 PM

Pretty much everyone I know in CE and MAE relies on solutions manuals to get by in their classes have some semblance of a life though

5/3/2009 2:55:23 PM

Dr. Kimberly in rocks for jocks recommends using past exams to study for current ones! And as for this being cheating, if you copied the answers from a book you are a fool. If you did them then checked your answers you are not.

5/3/2009 3:20:23 PM

if you only read tww, you'd think engineering was the hardest thing anyone's ever done.

5/3/2009 4:54:32 PM

^ Ding ding ding.

5/3/2009 10:02:43 PM

Quote :

"Pretty much everyone I know in CE and MAE relies on solutions manuals to get by in their classes though."

I never had one in AE (BS & MS), and I don't think I know anyone who did. I got by in my classes by learning the material. If I couldn't learn it, I got a bad grade.

5/4/2009 3:41:16 PM

^^^ hahahaha

5/4/2009 5:15:46 PM

Another problem with this particular situation is that the solution manual is not available for purchase. He described it as only being available on the "black market".

The problem he wanted us to solve on the homework was meant to challenge us. The professor wanted to see how we would approach the problem and it was never going to be graded in the first place. He expected to see maybe 5 correct answers out of the entire class and got over 50. He gave a quiz with the same homework problem and if you got it right and didn't turn yourself in you were in the clear as far as I could tell.

Unfortunately, I did have the solution manual and in order to avoid any complications with graduation, I turned myself in. Although I only used it to check answers, I can see where he is coming from and respect his decision to pursue us.

In my four years at State, I am not sure I've had a teacher that has been as passionate as this professor. Although he is challenging, I believe he is an effective teacher if you go to class and pay attention. He punishment was fair and the whole situation was eye opening for me. I will definitely be sure to ask about manuals in graduate school.

5/4/2009 6:22:31 PM

^ i don't think he reads tww mang.

5/4/2009 7:07:45 PM

[facepalm] tww needs no apologies

5/5/2009 7:50:41 AM

Quote :

""Pretty much everyone I know in CE and MAE relies on solutions manuals to get by in their classes though.""

Graduated with a degree in ME in 2006. I never owned/downloaded/relied on a solutions manual. Like others have said, if you have just been copying homework out of the solutions manual, a lot of the professor in MAE will make you look like a jacka$$ when it comes test time.

Stop being lazy, go to the TA's office or your professor, or make some friends and ask them to help you out. I know a lot of problems I couldn't solve, I could find help in the Progress Energy room in Broughton

[Edited on May 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM. Reason : :]

5/5/2009 11:46:56 AM

^lol I spent so many countless hours in the Progress Energy room. But this man speaks the truth, form a study group. I had a regular group that I got together with the work on homework and stuff and between us all we were usually able to figure out how to approach the problems. Just don't be that guy and show up to the study group 2 hours later then everyone else and try to copy down all the work.

5/5/2009 2:48:01 PM

Quote :

"if you only read tww, you'd think engineering was the hardest thing anyone's ever done."

5/5/2009 8:04:46 PM

wonder how jessiejepp got twwfamous??

5/5/2009 8:21:18 PM

i got one of the two highest grades for the final in this class...

5/5/2009 8:42:51 PM

some cliffnotes would be really good about now

5/8/2009 12:18:34 AM

Quote :

"Pretty much everyone I know in CE and MAE relies on solutions manuals to get by in their classes have some semblance of a life though"

I can attest how much work it requires to get good grades in MAE without solutions manuals, old tests, old hw, ect. I've done nothing but school related work for the past 2-3 years, and have not had a free weekend since freshman year.

It sucks spending 3-4 hours getting stuck on something simple on a homework due to the professor or TA making a "slight" error or the book just not being clear enough. It also sucks being away from campus, and taking an hr of bus rides to get to talk to the TA for 5 mins whom just shows you the solutions manual and you figure it out on your own. Then, knowing that atleast 98% of the other class mates don't follow this guide line kinda sucks. But, I guess it is supposed to be a hard major, and I always get caught if I try to do something "devious".

5/8/2009 7:54:39 AM

^ wait, would you call faking swine flu to get out of taking a final devious?

5/8/2009 10:14:20 AM

I never said it was H1N1, I guess I will never find out now as they have a policy that if you want to find out the blood results you have to make another apt.

5/8/2009 11:39:39 AM

NCSU professors are known for being lazy asses (esp. the Engineering ones). You fucked up by actually signing a paper admiting to plagiarism. The professor was in the wrong and none of this would have happened if he/she had done their job. 1) Make up their own homework problems 2) Make the test centered more on the concepts.

5/13/2009 2:06:33 PM

^lurk much?

5/13/2009 3:49:27 PM