2

LOL

11/6/2008 12:20:55 PM

prop 8 is so unconstitutional its crazy. seriously though, if people voted on laws based on the Constitution of the United States rather the the Bible things would have been different.

11/6/2008 1:01:29 PM

Quote :

"if gay people would take the word MARRIAGE out of it and simply campaign for a 'union' or some similar verbage giving them the exact same legal rights and penalties of marriage they could get it passed no problem. too bad they are being stubborn about a stupid word. religious people will fight like hell against gay 'marriage' because of the roots in religion that the word has."

Why should they have to? I mean, two people legally agreeing to spend the rest of their lives together is a MARRIAGE. Marriages shouldn't be associated with religion- they've been around for much longer than Christianity (Greek and Roman marriages, etc), so its "roots" aren't even religious.

11/6/2008 1:38:11 PM

to win the battle of semantics.

11/6/2008 2:32:14 PM

Quote :

"to win the battle of semantics."

BobbyDigital gets the point.

the masses are idiot sheep. if the word 'marriage' isnt anywhere in the law, no one will likely notice.

11/6/2008 2:46:33 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/06/state.laws/index.html

Groups ask California court to block same-sex marriage ban

"Hey, this democracy thing isn't working out the way we had hoped. Can you guys fix it for us?"

Quote :

"it makes no sense to me either, I don't understand how someone could go in and vote for Obama, the tolerance ticket, and at the same time vote yes to prop bullshit"

Maybe is proves that most people vote for president based on the important issues.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 3:27 PM. Reason : specify]

11/6/2008 3:22:20 PM

It proves that it's still socially acceptable in some areas to be a bigot but not a racist.

11/6/2008 3:23:56 PM

Quote :

"if the word 'marriage' isnt anywhere in the law, no one will likely notice."

the problem is a lot of the legal benefits of marriage say 'marriage' so those would have to be re-written to include civil unions

11/6/2008 3:27:38 PM

One sign refers to another prop on the ballot there
"We Expanded the Rights of Chickens and Limited the Rights of Human Beings"




Looks like there have been protests in many large cities across CA, CNN is running it as a live story now

Quote :

"Activists protest California's same-sex marriage ban Watch Now: Live on CNN.com »"

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 6:38 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 6:35:41 PM

Quote :

"Marriages shouldn't be associated with religion"

I'd rather disassociate it with government. let it be a religious and/or social ceremony, and nothing else.

11/6/2008 6:38:06 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/06/hostin.qanda/index.html

Quote :

"Legal analyst: Same-sex marriage again in limbo # Story Highlights # California voters appear to have approved a ban on same-sex marriage # At least three court challenges have been filed against ban # CNN legal analyst says opinions on ban's legality are "all over the place" # Analyst says U.S. Supreme Court will likely be called upon to decide issue"

I'm watching the live stream of that protest I just mentioned CNN is covering, the Police just showed up in force.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 6:55 PM. Reason : .]

One guy just got beat down, some others are getting cuffed.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 6:55 PM. Reason : .]

The protest is grid locking some streets apparently.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 6:59 PM. Reason : .]

It's a helicopter overview shot I've been watching, they just zoomed out, and then zoomed in on several different parts of the city, there are protests all over... not just the one I was watching.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 7:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 6:45:32 PM

There are protests going on here....making a mess of the westwood area..... they is abouts to be in front of the mormon church there. That area right by wilshire in westwood is congested as fuck anyway....and now it's 4:00 so the traffic is going to be hideous. Good thing I decided to stay at home today.

11/6/2008 7:00:51 PM

OK but seriously.....here's my comment on this issue....

How many mormons are there in California?

How many mormons are African-American?


I ask because the blacks overwhelmingly vote YES on 8....

And there are a lot more gay folks here than mormons...

11/6/2008 7:06:14 PM

that was your "comment"??

you pointed out the overwhelmingly obvious demographics of california.

good job

11/6/2008 7:24:23 PM

um....No....my comment is that the protests are targeted at the mormon church...but in all reality, it wasn't them that made much of a difference.

I guess that was too hard for you to piece together...hopefully I've sorted this out for you now.

11/6/2008 7:49:45 PM

yeah it was actually.

it was completely nonsensical. wouldn't it have been much easy to just say THAT^

11/6/2008 7:52:53 PM

Well I guess I'll know the limits of everyone's mental capabilities for next time

11/6/2008 7:56:32 PM

it wasn't the mormon population in CA that had much affect although they certainly didn't help, all they could provide was a local organizing tool as the face of Yes on Prop 8, it was $20 million from mormons in Utah that created an ad campaign full lies that way outspent anything the no on prop 8 side could come up with that made a difference... only 6.2% of CA's population is African American vs NC which has like nearly a 25% African American population.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 8:01 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 8:00:12 PM

Mormons poured a lot of money into the campaign for Prop 8. Even if they couldn't vote on it, they influenced a lot of people who did and got them to the polls.

Dan Savage is catching hell for (essentially) blaming black people for it passing.

11/6/2008 8:03:30 PM

well both sides spent equal amounts of money on their campaigns I think... and I can tell you as someone who had to live through it...I saw a lot more NO on 8 commercials than YES. Come to think of I think there was a commercial in which they say 'Obama says NO on 8'...which now doesn't make sense....hmmmmm

11/6/2008 8:09:13 PM

You can thank Obama for this. Oh, the irony.

11/6/2008 8:10:16 PM

Is this the ad w/ Obama that you were referring to?

The mormon lead yes on prop 8 financing ended up about 5 million more than the no on 8 groups. Outside of Utah, California has the 2nd largest mormon population in the united states.

"According to the LDS Church 2007 statistics, just over 750,000 Mormons reside in the state of California, attending almost 1400 congregations statewide."
-wiki

This issue was decided by about a 500 thousand vote difference out of nearly 10 million people who voted on the issue. With no funding alone the mormon residents of CA could more than make that difference, with leading the charge in over 20 million raised mostly from Utah, and the CA branch of the mormon church as the rallying organization behind yes on 8, there is no doubt that the mormon church is the enemy & the cause of prop 8 passing (not obama)



[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 9:02 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 8:50:47 PM

I read they sent out a mailer quoting Obama as saying "marriage is between a man and a woman".

11/6/2008 9:01:31 PM

I'm jumping into this discussion late,

but this is some bullshit. WTF, CA?

11/6/2008 9:05:58 PM

Quote :

"Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a member of the church's Presidency of the Seventy who helped lead the church's support for Proposition 8, told reporters during a press conference Wednesday that he doesn't have a total for how much money was donated by Latter-day Saints. He did say it was "considerable and generous" and that church leaders are "grateful for the sacrifice" made by members who participated in the campaign. "

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Quote :

"In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). An IRC section 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status."

11/6/2008 9:09:08 PM

Yes Supplanter...that was the ad..... But what I don't get is that Obama/Biden are against gay marriage aren't they? So is the commercial wrong?


In exit polls done here, like I said earlier, overwhelmingly black people voted YES.... I don't know about numbers and I'm guessing that anyone here or in San Fran probably wouldn't say out loud that they would vote YES. But of those 750,000 mormons, how many are voting age? I mean these are mormons we're talking about...it could be like only 300,000 over 18 (assuming that number is all people and not just voting age).

I think the truth of the matter is that in the end, conservatism works when people aren't thinking about 'which side' they're on. I mean it's just a thought but it's one theory...

11/6/2008 9:29:15 PM

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 9:31 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 9:30:31 PM

Huh? Didn't he say at the last VP debate that him and Barack were both against it? Obviously I could be wrong but I could have sworn he said something like that...

11/6/2008 9:36:03 PM

You don't win a national election saying I want to change the law to recognize marriage equality, but that doesn't mean they aren't both against changing a state's constitution to add discrimination. The mormon funded yes on 8 mailers and info did heavily imply Obama & Biden were for Prop 8 & that's what a lot of people believe because of that, despite the fact that they are against Prop 8.


cnn.com

The protests finally made it from a live coverage, into an actual story on CNN

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 10:12 PM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 10:03:30 PM

Quote :

"and gay adoption was banned in AK, too. WTF is with Arkansas? "

AK is alaska.

11/6/2008 10:15:34 PM

Quote :

"yeah it was actually. it was completely nonsensical. wouldn't it have been much easy to just say THAT^ "

uhh, i thought what she said the first time was pretty straightforward.

11/7/2008 3:17:39 AM

CNN's current top story (as well as having 2 additional stories in the political section), which is I think a lot of coverage considering other historical events that have just taken place and aren't the current top story. Once you click on the story, part of the title is "Mormons defend backing same-sex marriage ban"

Quote :

" Demonstrators took to the streets of Los Angeles on Wednesday and Thursday to vent their disappointment. About 1,000 same-sex marriage supporters Thursday demonstrated outside a Mormon temple, bringing afternoon traffic on Santa Monica Boulevard to a halt, according to The Associated Press. Hollywood Police Sgt. Don Lawrence said Thursday that on Wednesday four protesters were taken into custody for interfering with police business. In Los Angeles County's West Hollywood, a watch commander said there were three arrests Wednesday: one for drunkenness and two for disturbing the peace. No injuries were reported. Up to 1,000 protesters staged a half-hour sit-in outside CNN's Los Angeles bureau on Sunset Boulevard. The demonstrators chanted and banged on the building's glass doors but dispersed without incident. Hundreds also gathered on the steps of San Francisco's City Hall, according to an AP report. Some held candles and carried signs that read, "We all deserve the freedom to marry." Talk show host Ellen DeGeneres said she is "saddened beyond belief" over the proposed amendment. DeGeneres, who wed actress Portia de Rossi in August, said in a statement Wednesday that she, "like millions of Americans, felt like we had taken a giant step toward equality" by electing Barack Obama as president. DeGeneres said that with the passage of California's Proposition 8, "we took a giant step away.""

I also just saw else where Takei said this:

Quote :

"Takei on Wednesday was disappointed but philosophical about California voters’ decision to yank that right by passing a constitutional amendment restricting marriage to heterosexual couples. "There are going to be heartbreaks, setbacks and sacrifices to be made," he said, "but we will soldier on." "

http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:36 AM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 5:34:18 AM

a guest on NPR just mentioned that one of the ironies/hypocrisies of the large black-opposition to this prop is that when Barack Obama's parents were married, interracial marriages were still illegal in many states.

11/7/2008 10:52:20 AM

I guess Mormons are easier to picket than African Americans for Prop 8 supporters despite the fact that it appears that the latter was the real deciding factor in the final Prop 8 vote.

Not that I'm a huge Mormon fan, but it seems a bit wrong to harass Mormon churches and temples but then to do very little to protest against African American churches who played a key role in rallying voters for Prop 8. The latter appeared to have a greater influence over the vote than the former but the former is easier to scapegoat for the failure.

11/7/2008 12:58:40 PM

^I don't think that the African Americans who voted against it did so as African American's, they did so as Christians misguided by the lies & propaganda fueled by the millions and millions that the mormon church spent on the Yes on 8 political campaign. Mormon church leaders, and momron money is why this passed, they were the ones with the rallying cry for prop 8, who did most of the organizing, and it is not scapegoating to point out that the main culprit is in fact the main one.

There are more protests either planned for or currently occurring in San Fransisco, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, San Diego, Laguna Beach, Sacramento, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, and Chicago & it looks like they are going to keep going & spreading from there.

11/7/2008 2:21:13 PM

Don't be stupid.

The "No on 8" campaign spent more money than the Mormon church.

And besides, if money is the only reason 8 passed, then you could use the same argument about Obama.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 2:27 PM. Reason : 2]

11/7/2008 2:25:06 PM

I approve of girls kissing.

11/7/2008 2:26:36 PM

Quote :

"I don't think that the African Americans who voted against it did so as African American's, they did so as Christians misguided by the lies & propaganda fueled by the millions and millions that the mormon church spent on the Yes on 8 political campaign."

Wow, you sound like a huge tool with this comment. Stop whining, fag. Money is a big part of politics. And even then, opponents of Prop 8 outspent the proponents.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/spending-for-an.html

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM. Reason : 2]

11/7/2008 2:30:18 PM

Stupid, huge tool, whiner, fag... when you litter your sentences with such great points like these, it just makes me take what you're saying so much more seriously. And you are accusing me of whining b/c I'm not angry enough at the African American community rather than the main pro-prop 8 group? Based on your language it sounds like you're more upset than I am.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 2:59 PM. Reason : Why do you even care so much about this?]

11/7/2008 2:58:53 PM

I care about misinformation and bullshit. Your posts are full of both. Hell ya you're whining. You're whining nonstop about the Mormon Church, even though millions of people voted for Prop 8 and I heard a hell of a lot more propaganda against Prop 8 than for it. You are acting like everyone is the "victim" of the Mormon Church and its evil money machine. Get real. Prop 8 passed because voters are against gay marriage, now you and all the whining protesters need to come to grips with it.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 3:58 PM. Reason : 2]

11/7/2008 3:57:51 PM

There's always Massachusetts I guess.

LOL

11/7/2008 4:02:16 PM

Seriously, Supplanter, you don't seriously think their opinion on homosexuality was influenced by the Mormon church, do you? You know, the famously racist Mormon church.

It wouldn't have to do with the long-standing Christian beliefs many blacks hold, now would it?

11/7/2008 4:02:41 PM

Quote :

"In exit polls done here, like I said earlier, overwhelmingly black people voted YES.... I don't know about numbers and I'm guessing that anyone here or in San Fran probably wouldn't say out loud that they would vote YES. But of those 750,000 mormons, how many are voting age? I mean these are mormons we're talking about...it could be like only 300,000 over 18 (assuming that number is all people and not just voting age)."

The "blame the black" seems to just be an anomaly in the polls. Supposedly, the trend goes along more by county than color.

I'm sure there probably is more anti-gay sentiment among the blacks vs. other demographics, but I'm not convinced yet that was the deciding factor...

Quote :

"However - the more I look at county by county data on the proposition - many counties that are only 1% or less black were heavily for prop 8, while counties like Contra Costa and Alameda that have significant black populations were against prop 8. I'm going to do a thorough investigation of this - but I'm guessing that all this "blame the black man" thing is based upon an abuse of statistics, using polling data from a few select areas and not taking into account dishonesty at the exit polls - or confusion in how the question was asked."

- http://www.maclife.com/forums/topic/108412

It's uncited, but it gives you enough info to dig into the issue yoruself.

11/7/2008 4:17:07 PM

"You're whining nonstop "

You're the one calling people names, but I think we can agree to disagree and move on from something as trivial as who is whining.

11/7/2008 4:46:13 PM

Fair enough. I hope the gay rights activists out here in California can move on as well.

11/7/2008 4:48:31 PM

^they may in terms of blaming the mormon church, i doubt they will in terms of continuing to try for marriage equality

11/7/2008 4:50:56 PM

Quote :

"I guess Mormons are easier to picket than African Americans for Prop 8 supporters despite the fact that it appears that the latter was the real deciding factor in the final Prop 8 vote. Not that I'm a huge Mormon fan, but it seems a bit wrong to harass Mormon churches and temples but then to do very little to protest against African American churches who played a key role in rallying voters for Prop 8. The latter appeared to have a greater influence over the vote than the former but the former is easier to scapegoat for the failure."

There's been plenty of scapegoating of African Americans, even the gay ones.

Quote :

"Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice. It was like being at a klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. If your people want to call me a FAGGOT, I will call you a nigger. Someone else said same thing to me on the next block near the temple...me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them."

http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html

It's too bad that if blacks had voted at the same rate as whites it would've still passed:

Quote :

" Black Votes if We'd Voted Like Other People Did: Black Women Voting Like White Women:: 47% of 6% of 10,325,615: 291,182 Yes (a reduction of only 86,816 votes for Proposition 8 from our hypothetical maximum of Black votes cast) Black Men Voting Like White Men:: 51% of 4% of 10,325,615: 210,643 Yes (an INCREASE, if you believe CNN's poll even though Black men were reduced to a pitiful "N/A", of 84,643 votes, almost cancelling out the change in Black women entirely) Black People Voting Like Asians/Natives: 49% of 10% of 10,325,615: 505,955 Yes Adding the "enlightened" Black vote to the exising totals above for everyone else we get 5,203,590 Yes votes. Out of 10,325,615 votes."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

Exit polling showed there are a ton of other demographics who voted close to or above the rate that blacks did including the elderly, Republicans, those who attend church weekly, gun owners, Catholics, Protestants, etc. Blacks (even inexplicably the queer ones) are only a target because they are easier to pick out.

11/7/2008 7:53:04 PM

Quote :

"I hope the gay rights activists out here in California can move on as well."

i don't know why they could or should move on.

i mean, did black activists just "move on" when the Supreme Court repeatedly ruled against them for decades?

11/7/2008 9:25:59 PM

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/obama-outperforms-kerry-among-virtually.html

Gays were the ONLY demographic (other than old people) that Obama lost ground with this past election.

(And there's some nice numbers there for Prawn Star regarding rich and educated people ).

11/7/2008 9:28:02 PM

Quote :

"Prop 8 passed because voters are against gay marriage, now you and all the whining protesters need to come to grips with it."

Voters might be okay with it, and it might have passed, but that doesn't change the fact that such a wildly unconstitutional proposition should have been thrown out as soon as it was suggested.

11/8/2008 1:45:37 AM