In my experience the vast majority of girls/women who complain about guys their age not being mature enough and having to date older men are far less mature than most, in reality.

I'd say if you think you're more mature than everyone else, you're probably actually less

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 5:40 PM. Reason : a]

1/28/2008 5:38:51 PM

in high school it meant they were sluts and just wanted some p33n

1/28/2008 6:09:36 PM

Quote :

"But I don't want a guy who has no ambition for anything better, who's content going to work and doing nothing but playing computer games, or better yet, not working at all. I don't want a guy who's not going to help me cook or keep the place clean."

Are there really that many of these? Or is it that there are so many guys who play more video games than you want them to play? Who have a job that they like but you've attached some stigma to? Who don't just help you cook and clean, but in fact do the lion's share of it?

Is it maybe, just maybe, possible that you want to use this article to try to claim that your troubles with men stem from something other than your own personal shortcomings?

---

All that said, I immediately fall into pretty much all of the patterns listed in the article and this thread whenever I'm not in a relationship. I will happily put in the work and change these things (have before, in fact, for all the fucking good it did me) for someone I care about, because the requisites for me being content change to include their happiness. Other than that? Fuck it. I'm happy being pseudo-employed and being frequently drunk for the time being.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 6:25 PM. Reason : ]

1/28/2008 6:23:28 PM

Quote :

"In my experience the vast majority of girls/women who complain about guys their age not being mature enough and having to date older men are far less mature than most, in reality. I'd say if you think you're more mature than everyone else, you're probably actually less"

The same goes for men who complain that all they can find is immature/crazy women.

Though part of that might be that they like PYTs and such.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 6:39 PM. Reason : .]

1/28/2008 6:38:24 PM

I've found that the vast majority of people don't have a clue when it comes to life. Especially in raleigh. Before I moved up here I was use to working and had a focus. Thats why engineering school wasn't that tough for me. The sorryness of alot of people I see up here just makes me sick. This whole live drink laugh crap is nice but it aint gonna get you anywhere. The key to true happiness is to work and do something useful and to see your work do something. Thats why I can't go on vacation for to long cause I'm ready to work to reach what I want outa life.

1/28/2008 6:44:34 PM

i basically just go to work

and i wait



mostly for retirement

1/28/2008 6:47:48 PM

this wins the pretentious thread of the day award in a runaway....

1/28/2008 6:48:12 PM

Quote :

"you are hanging around losers then - that statement should definitely no longer be true once you hit your mid-20s but i would agree that the percentage of "real men" might be higher in the 30s"

Agreed. I'm 24 and nearly all of my friends have college degrees and successful careers. On top of that, must of them own property and are very ambitious.

1/28/2008 6:52:47 PM

I won't even have a "real" job until I finish residency, at which point I'll be 31...and that's with going straight from high school to college to med school, with no time off in between them.

Quote :

"is this really a surprise? you have plenty of people that are mature by the time they are 21 and plenty that aren't - basically all due to the differing life experiences that each person has - some people "grow up" quicker"

While this is true--there's naturally going to be variation between people--data show that more and more people (of both sexes) are "growing up" more slowly. More people move back in with their parents after college, don't get into a career, etc.

1/28/2008 6:52:54 PM

Quote :

"I think there is a fundamental difference between having the trappings of maturity and an adult life, and actually BEING mature and leading an adult life."

Have you seen some of the 40-something on Wife Swap and Supernanny?

Just because you have a stable job, are married, have kids, and don't drink and play video games doesn't mean you're mature.

1/28/2008 6:54:19 PM

Quote :

"I thought that now that I'm 26, I'd be able to find a guy close to my age who's mature... instead I have to look in the 30-something range to find a real MAN instead of lazy boys."

What have you done that's so special? Do you have it all together? Own your own home? Have a career on the move?

Or are you expecting a man to have all those things because you haven't been able to provide them for yourself? You are 26 and unmarried, but it is all the fault of the tens of thousands of single men in the Raleigh area. Yeah, right.

1/28/2008 6:57:42 PM

We need rallydurham to set some things straight in this thread.

1/28/2008 6:59:16 PM

I concur.

1/28/2008 6:59:37 PM

The problem is people just arent responsible like they use to be. There is a substantial difference between people who grew up poor and people who grew up with money because poor people have to work and rich kids get babied. I grew up working and had a want to be successful. I didn't want nobody to give me nothing. Rich kids or lazy people grow up in a fantasy world where they don't have to work for what they get. Hence, the progressive liberal movement goin on in America.

Also its all about your influences. If you hang out with lazyness you'll be lazy.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 7:07 PM. Reason : .]

1/28/2008 7:03:58 PM

I live with single guy friends, but it's not because I'm immature. It's because I like the thousands of dollars I make every year on rental income for space I wouldn't otherwise be using. Plus security of someone usually being home when I'm not there, yadda yadda yadda.

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 7:06 PM. Reason : l]

1/28/2008 7:05:41 PM

My family certainly isn't rich, but they did take care of me to an extent that I didn't have a need to work until near the end of college. Sometimes, I regret that.

But what has affected me at least as much is watching what my parents (and many, many others) went through to provide that level of comfort, namely, slaving for a bunch of goddamn MBA's, bureaucrats, and other generic wankers who have steadily sucked the life out of them for their entire "adult" lives. There were things that they could've done that they would've enjoyed, but what you enjoy and what will make you "successful" in the sense it's being used here aren't always the same thing.

And one day, yeah, if I meet a person I love enough to be worth it, I'll wade into the same shit heap, but for the time being I'm not going to take crap from you people who are spending your free and unattached twenties as desk slaves and cubicle monkeys. All so that....what? So you can save away for your old, enfeebled, and thoroughly attached years?

[Edited on January 28, 2008 at 8:14 PM. Reason : ]

1/28/2008 8:12:57 PM

Quote :

"lazy people grow up in a fantasy world where they don't have to work for what they get. Hence, the progressive liberal movement goin on in America."

I'm the son of a school teacher and half blind mechanic (who was in the army) whose sight eventually made him into a janitor instead who sent twins to college. So I had to keep my grades up for scholarships & had to hold down a job. I've helped create an annual scholarship fund raiser. I've was active in my groups, clubs, and my community from high school through & to my working life. I've graduated and got a degree, worked 40 to 55 hour weeks since graduating with countless 10+ hour shifts, I've been published in my field, and volunteered with democratic presidential & senate campaigns and when I'm around these campaigns I still often feel like the underachiever.

I don't think being a lazy and being liberal are one in the same at all.

1/28/2008 8:42:40 PM

Quote :

" What have you done that's so special? Do you have it all together? Own your own home? Have a career on the move? Or are you expecting a man to have all those things because you haven't been able to provide them for yourself? You are 26 and unmarried, but it is all the fault of the tens of thousands of single men in the Raleigh area. Yeah, right. "

I own a townhome, I have a full time job make over 30k, and I've been accepted into graduate school for this fall.
So yeah, I have it together. Thanks for playing, try again.


Part of my problem is the guys I am attracted to. I'm kind of geeky, I like reading and scifi fantasy, I don't mind playing some video games once in a while, so most of my long term relationships have been with "geeky" guys, although their main thing usually seems to be computer games.

Maybe once I'm back in school I'll have a larger pool of motivated, mature men to pick from.... but I have a feeling that half the people I'll be getting to know in grad school will be chinese and won't speak alot of english

1/28/2008 9:15:42 PM

Quote :

"And although I'm not like this...why should a guy act like this mature-ready-to-settle-down type of man when he's not in the position to do so? If a guy isn't ready to get married, then he should be able to go out and get drunk and go home and play video games with he friends as much as he wants to."

The patterns you set early on are alot harder break later.

1/28/2008 9:21:04 PM

Quote :

"The patterns you set early on are alot harder break later."

So because even though I don't want to settle down right now, I should practice for when I do? No thanks...I'm going to live my life how I want to until it gets to that point. So far that's worked. Most guys can tone it down when it gets time to get into a relationship.

Quote :

"Part of my problem is the guys I am attracted to. I'm kind of geeky, I like reading and scifi fantasy, I don't mind playing some video games once in a while, so most of my long term relationships have been with "geeky" guys, although their main thing usually seems to be computer games."

I think you've found your problem. How can you complain when these are the types of guys you go after?? Ridiculous...

1/28/2008 10:04:50 PM

I can balance it, why can't guys?

1/28/2008 10:17:11 PM

We can. You just haven't met those of us that have that ability.

1/28/2008 10:18:10 PM

People suck in general. Girls are immature, guys are immature, etc. If you aren't an idiot, you notice it and are depressed about where the sane ones are. That's the world we live in.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

1/28/2008 10:21:13 PM

I think the single streak goes two ways:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/01/04/career.relationships/

Blaming men and video games is pretty simplistic when there's a clear underlying cultural shift in western society.

1/28/2008 10:21:43 PM

Quote :

"# # Study: Young women more likely to choose career over love # Men in college more likely to put relationships first # Expert: Love, children more likely to disrupt women's careers"

1/28/2008 10:25:09 PM

Shhh

Anecdotal evidence and feminine nerdrage at failed relationships makes a lot more sense then cold, hard facts.

1/28/2008 10:27:05 PM

haha

1/28/2008 10:34:54 PM

Quote :

"I have a full time job make over 30k, and I've been accepted into graduate school for this fall. So yeah, I have it together. Thanks for playing, try again. "

Woah, over 30K. Let me go ahead and roll out the red carpet...

1/28/2008 11:03:07 PM

I mean she is a woman.

Clearly the Glass ceiling and all...

1/28/2008 11:05:02 PM

Haha. My cousin used to do this mime trapped in a box routine in front of his wife whenever the concept of class ceiling came up. It was quite hilarious.

1/28/2008 11:06:23 PM

Something tells me all of us 20 somethings are being judged based on the actions of one guy who probably wasn't all that interested in her. Both this thread and the article to which we were linked reek of unsettled emotions.

1/28/2008 11:11:34 PM

No seriously

I'm sure we've all had this conversation with n women

You know, where they've had a string of worthless boyfriends

And we were just so tired of hearing uninteresting ex stories

that we didn't bother explaining the concept of a 'trend' within a given dataset [previous relationships]

1/28/2008 11:14:22 PM

Sometimes my boyfriend leaves beer bottles and dirty socks in the living room. I guess it's not that big of a deal when I hear other people complain.

1/29/2008 12:01:10 AM

Maybe guys want to put off "settling down" because they saw how badly their parents fucked this up and want to make sure they get it right.

Maybe girls want to hurry up and "settle down" because they are insecure without the trappings of a household and husband.

1/29/2008 12:22:21 AM

why would you want to settle down at 24?

1/29/2008 2:27:25 AM

The "Millennials" Are Coming

Quote :

"Today more than half of college seniors move home after graduation. It's a safety net, or safety diaper, that allows many kids to quickly opt out of a job they don't like. 'There once was, if not shame, a little certain uneasiness about being seen to be living at home in your mid 20s, yes?' Safer asks Mary Crane. 'Not only is there no shame with it, but this is thought to be a very smart, wise, economic decision,' Crane says. 'Well, that would suggest that they probably had pretty happy childhoods,' Safer says. 'And who couldn't be happy when you're growing up in a world where there's no failure?' Crane points out. And dear old mom isn't just your landlord; she is your agent as well. 'Career services departments are complaining about the parents who are coming to update their child's resume. And in fact, you go to employers, and they're starting to express concern now with the parents who will phone HR, saying, "But my little Susie or little Johnny didn't get the performance evaluation that I think they deserve,"' Crane says. 'Our parents really took from us that opportunity to fall down on our face and learn how to stand up,' says Jason Dorsey."

Quote :

"'Could this be that everything is being delayed so that adolescence ends at 30 say and middle age starts at 60 say?' Safer asks Jeffrey Zaslow. 'You can hope that's the case. But, while we're having this delayed adolescence, are we getting behind as an economy and as a workforce, because we're just all playing computer games at work while we wait to grow up?' he replies [emphasis added]."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/08/60minutes/main3475200.shtml

/message_topic.aspx?topic=502096

[Edited on January 29, 2008 at 2:43 AM. Reason : ]

1/29/2008 2:40:39 AM

I don't think its fair that the guys should share all the blame. The author of the article pretty much blames maxim magazine for creating those "child-men". The same logic can be applied to women though, they have their outlets (sex and the city, etc) for the creation of "child-women".

there's too much bat-shit craziness going on both ways, yet if each sex were to get that shit outta their head, they could probably find someone worth settling down with, instead of whoring it up at the bar every weekend.


or maybe people just had too much fun in college, or didn't have enough, and want to continue that for a little while after graduating, especially when they have some more bling in the pocket to do so

1/29/2008 5:11:30 AM

Don't knock geeky computer-gamers.

If you have trouble finding guys your own age that you enjoy the company of, it's probably where you meet them or how you meet them more than what type of guy they are.

My boyfriend is younger than me, but much more mature than any of the other guys I've dated. He's a geeky computer-gamer too. I'm okay with that; I would prefer a guy who is at home maybe playing more games than I would like than one who is out all the time at the bars with his buddies.

It does go both ways too. Also, it's not something just seen in relationships. There are countless HR articles being written about changes in hiring procedures to accommodate the younger generation.

1/29/2008 8:33:19 AM

Quote :

"For whatever reason, adolescence appears to be the young man's default state, proving what anthropologists have discovered in cultures everywhere: It is marriage and children that turn boys into men. "

Men shouldn't cut their teeth on a new wife and child in order to grow up.

I've seen plenty of grown-ass men that act like children

1/29/2008 8:58:46 AM

Quote :

"We need rallydurham to set some things straight in this thread."

yup.

Quote :

"But what has affected me at least as much is watching what my parents (and many, many others) went through to provide that level of comfort, namely, slaving for a bunch of goddamn MBA's, bureaucrats, and other generic wankers who have steadily sucked the life out of them for their entire "adult" lives. There were things that they could've done that they would've enjoyed, but what you enjoy and what will make you "successful" in the sense it's being used here aren't always the same thing."

A-goddamned-men.

Time for another one of JCASHFAN's patented unsubstantiated biological theory rants. . .

None of this should really be surprising when you think about it. Even just thirty years ago, when men dominated the professional classes and geographic stability was pretty much expected, it was in your best interest to snatch the best girl you could find early on, marry her, and start popping out babies. She had no incentive to delay childbearing since her secretarial "career" wouldn't be particularly stunted by her absence, and by 25, he pretty much knew what pool he had to pick from.

Today, however, with geographic mobility/instability being the norm, and women growing in the professional classes in increasing numbers, they have plenty of incentives to delay child bearing and hold out for the best possible relationship. Thirty years ago, a woman could pretty much expect to "marry up" financially, but with women rapidly closing the pay gap and actually over-taking men as a percentage of many professional classes, it is harder and harder for them to find a man they see as a "provider." Women are biologically inclined to seek a man who can support her and her offspring through child-bearing / rearing. Sixty years of feminist theory isn't going to change thousands of years of evolutionary programming.

For males on the other hand, they've never really had an incentive (biologically speaking) to form relationships. A male, with practically unlimited sperm can pass his genetic material on to as many women as he can impregnate, as opposed to a woman maxing out at one every nine months. Why work on a relationship now when you're likely to find another just around the corner?

The economic prosperity of the last 60 years no doubt plays a role as well, but I think it is more of a facilitator of the causes than the cause itself.

I dunno, maybe I'm completely off the mark here. /words

1/29/2008 9:22:15 AM

I'm not reading that.

1/29/2008 9:25:43 AM

yeah, she's kinda right, more and more guys these days are lazy b/c instead of fighting a war in their early 20's and getting a job working on a farm and raising a family, they go to school at a slow pace and rely on their parents and don't 'grow up'

troof

1/29/2008 9:25:45 AM

Well the Army IS recruiting so..

I mean if you want to become a real man and all.

1/29/2008 9:45:38 AM

maybe it's because guys are smarter now and don't want to be locked into perpetual misery...

1/29/2008 9:46:49 AM

Quote :

"For males on the other hand, they've never really had an incentive (biologically speaking) to form relationships. A male, with practically unlimited sperm can pass his genetic material on to as many women as he can impregnate, as opposed to a woman maxing out at one every nine months. Why work on a relationship now when you're likely to find another just around the corner?"

There's 2 theories in biology, the one you spoke of, which men use to defend their "roaming" behavior, and another theory about how men are more likely to impregnate a woman if they stay with her, guaranteeing that their genes are passed on, and then taking care of the child to adulthood to further guarantee their genes passing on.

1/29/2008 9:57:25 AM

this is why i hate 'feminism.'


why did men get married, settle down and focus on providing for a family in 1970? oh yeah, the same reason women were barefoot and pregnant at home - because it was just what you did. why question it? that's changed now, but jesus christ, everything that men do is not a backlash against the feminist movement. why would women and their social roles change, but men stay just the same?



and this is just silly:

Quote :

"I meant that it's disappeared in the women of our generation."

my roommate and i are both damned good cooks, but we don't cook more than twice or so a week and on special occasions - not that we don't like to, but sometimes other activities like class and work take precedence.

1/29/2008 10:03:38 AM

Quote :

"To qualify some things, I don't want kids, I like geeky things too-- gaming, anime, etc--"

If you don't want to be with a man who acts like a child, maybe you should consider growing up first, because chances are that most mature men don't want to be with a girl who's acts like a child either.

1/29/2008 10:05:00 AM

I'm not saying you have to cook every night to know how to cook. I'm a really good cook and I rarely cook because I don't have the time.

I've just dated a lot...and I've dated one girl that can cook "decent." It saddens me a little bit.

1/29/2008 10:05:43 AM

I'd be fucking shamed and pissed about moving back home after college

1/29/2008 10:11:58 AM

so you think having hobbies that include playing video games and watching adult anime is childish?

If so, that's your opinion.

My opinion is that they're hobbies, and should stay in the realm of what to do when you have nothing else to do.

For the guys I have had long term relationships with (and I don't find this out till later in the relationship b/c they're on good behavior in the beginning) it's not just a hobby, it's what they do, like children. Children go to school because they have to, do their homework because they're told to, do chores when they're threatened with punishment, and the rest of the time fill their time with having fun.
Many guys (and probably women too) stay in this mentality. Sure, when they're single they'll do just enough to not become completely disgusting, but once in a relationship, they'll start mooching off the other person if you let them. Maybe it just boils down to utter selfishness.

1/29/2008 10:16:35 AM