^they played the tapes on cnn earlier

i was like omg

6/14/2007 8:15:04 PM

I don't understand how you can say the 911 operator is not at least partially at fault. Those dispatchers must have the numbers of a dozen different people that they could call in extenuating circumstances like this one. I mean if the person on the phone was like "the people at the hospital aren't helping her, they are watching her and doing nothing," wouldn't you at the very least try and get through to the cops and tell them there is a potentially urgent problem at the hospital? Thank god this woman wasn't black, Jesse Jackson would be up in arms.

6/14/2007 8:24:08 PM

Quote :

" let other people figure out if it is an emergency or not."

What other people are you talking about? Doctors? Like the ones you would find at a hospital?

Quote :

"at the very least try and get through to the cops"

The dispatcher told them "to contact county police officers at a security desk."

6/14/2007 8:45:10 PM

i for one would be pissed as hell if we got a call to transport a patient to another hospital when they hadn't even been seen by the hospital they were AT.

granted, the ED should have done something if she was indeed vomiting blood, but it sounds like this wasn't the case, and she loved her narcotics a little too much.

911 dispatcher didn't do anything wrong.

6/14/2007 8:55:14 PM

my sources for those who asked


caution WORDS

read about this 10 days ago in the cynicalnurse livejournal forum

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-king20may20,0,1577522,full.story





doctorogenki
2007-06-04 07:45 am UTC (link) Track This
Perfect example of how crying wolf can and will get you killed.

Sure, it shouldn't have happened like it did, but I have little pity for the woman. I know the type, and no matter how much you want blame the hospital staff, it doesn't change the fact that she'd still be alive without the drug abuse and unhealthy lifestyle. Not like I needed another example of how personal responsibility is dead in this country.

We can only save so many..........from themselves.

From a more balanced source:

"The coroner's office described Rodriguez as a transient with a history of illicit drug use. Her family said she was trying to put her life together."


zhijue
2007-06-04 10:25 am UTC (link) Track This
It's really terrible that the woman died, but LOTS of people come to the emergency room in terrible pain. Everyone wants to be seen right away, and if it's very busy, people have to wait their turns. I sat in the ER for 7 hours one time with a kidney stone, vomiting, writhing. Certainly not life threatening, but how did they know it wasn't an ectopic? But the way triage works is that cardiac people are seen first and transported trauma cases.

I can't tell whether this woman was even formally triaged, but a woman who just had a full work-up a few hours ago and was deemed well enough to be discharged, might not register as a very high priority in the triage process.

I suppose it certainly could be negligence, but if so, it's a systems problem, not a triage nurse problem.


systems vs nurse triage
thirteenrocks
2007-06-04 10:51 am UTC (link) Track This
Its both actually.

According to the article, one of the nurses was extremly quickly to put in her resignation, and get the "hell" out of there, which tells me, she was running away from something. If the lady was slumped over on the floor, out of the wheel-chair, her condition obviously had "CHANGED", and thus warrented another medical assessment by trained personell. The medical team, stayed at the fucking desk, and ignored the problem.

The hospital had already been sighted for failure to comply to health regulations, and not closed down. There is obviously a systems failure when 911 is called to a hospital parking lot (or what have you) and don't respond!!!

I'm SHOCKED that they released the NAMES of the people involved, and how detailed this poorly written article was. Usually in these cases, they are not specific.

Re: systems vs nurse triage
zhijue
2007-06-04 12:31 pm UTC (link) Track This
I don't think resignation implies guilt.

As for people slumping and crawling around on the floor, and screaming and carrying on- have you ever been in an urban ER? It's common.

Maybe they did ignore the problem; maybe they were dealing with a couple of gsw's and cardiac cases. I don't think the article gives enough information to tell.

6/14/2007 9:15:28 PM

If anything that article just puts the hospital MORE at fault, not the woman. And those comments from a message board are not sources, they are just some random peoples opinions. This woman came to a hospital, was ignored, and died. I don't see how it is her fault at all.

and i don't see in either article where it says she was using narcotics. also, if she had just been seen by a doctor hours before, why didn't they notice then that she had a perforated bowel? the second article makes it seem like they just flat out refused to help her, neither article says the emergency room was busy. and if another patient could tell the woman was in trouble and had the sense to call 911, the nurse should have seen that too.

as far as letting someone else figure out if it is a real emergency or not, i have heard of more than one instance where 911 operators didn't believe a caller's story and refused to send help, resulting in someone's death. as far as i know, it is their job to help someone in an emergency. if it really wasn't an emergency and help came anyway, then i'm sure there'd be some sort of punishment for claiming a false emergency, but that isn't the responsibility of the 911 operator to figure out.

and for the crying wolf thing, the woman was SICK, she didn't cry wolf, she actually died. how the hell is it crying wolf if she ends up dying?


[Edited on June 14, 2007 at 9:39 PM. Reason : ]

6/14/2007 9:24:19 PM

I agree that the 911 dispatchers should have been more helpful/alerted authorities, they can't legally send someone to transport her once she's at a hospital, it's out of their jurisdiction. Either way, she should have received care from someone, no matter what her past history included. It amazes me how people can act so indifferent.

6/14/2007 9:42:33 PM

the coroners report said she had a hx of illicit drug abuse................hello we have these tests called tox screens, she prolly tested positive on her first visit 3 days ago.


I dont know how they missed her bowel issues... she was seen 3 times in 3 days. and numerous other times in the past. I dont know if they ordered an abdominal CT, but im sure JCAHO and many lawyers are looking into it.

I, however, am too tired to get into this further tonight, ive spent the last 12hours taking care of my own patients, and i get to do it again tomorrow, i am going to bed now

6/14/2007 9:45:25 PM

jesus christ, this is madness!

6/14/2007 9:47:57 PM

THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

6/14/2007 9:51:43 PM

Quote :

" how the hell is it crying wolf if she ends up dying?"

I don't think you understand how crying wolf works.


With respect to the 911 operator, I think you're missing the point that the woman was already in a hospital--a place where there are people trained to evaluate situations as being either emergency or non-emergency. There was no need for the operator to make that judgement over the phone, nor was there a need to send more people to make that evaluation. The operator told the callers to go find other doctors, go find supervisors, or go find police officers who were already at the hospital and who could respond faster than an ambulance from another location.

Despite the article's inflamatory tone, this is not a failure of the 911 dispatcher to send help. This is a failure of professionals on the scene to administer help.

6/14/2007 10:36:24 PM

Quote :

"if she had just been seen by a doctor hours before, why didn't they notice then that she had a perforated bowel?"

None of us have any idea what she said to the doctors.

There's no way for us to know whether someone has a perf unless we get an abdominal series or a CT.

And there's no reason to get those images unless the patient is complaining of abdominal symptoms.

6/14/2007 10:46:31 PM

Well please explain to me how she was crying wolf then?

^i'd be willing to bet she was complaining when she was "writhing" on the floor in pain and throwing up blood...

[Edited on June 14, 2007 at 10:48 PM. Reason : ]

6/14/2007 10:47:10 PM

Quote :

" The operator told the callers to go find other doctors, go find supervisors, or go find police officers who were already at the hospital and who could respond faster than an ambulance from another location. Despite the article's inflamatory tone, this is not a failure of the 911 dispatcher to send help. This is a failure of professionals on the scene to administer help."

Bingo.

6/14/2007 10:48:13 PM

There's no excuse, she was throwing up f'ing blood.. on CNN earlier they said even the janitor that was mopping up the bloody vomit was doing a superb job at completely ignoring her while cleaning up the mess. WTF

6/14/2007 10:51:49 PM

Quote :

"i'd be willing to bet she was complaining when she was "writhing" on the floor in pain and throwing up blood..."

The story seems to be that this happened later, after she had been discharged.

So if you want to talk about the failure of triage to reevaluate her, that's one thing.

But to talk like the ED physicians should've magically known what was wrong in the first place, when you have no idea what the clinical presentation was or what workup was done, doesn't make much sense.

6/14/2007 10:55:15 PM

no pity...crappy way to die, but c'mon, should the rest of society have to keep paying for this addict to feed her need, then she kills herself and we're to blame for not saving her?? survival of the fittest

6/14/2007 10:59:18 PM

Quote :

"Well please explain to me how she was crying wolf then?"

IF she was a frequent flier as someone suggested, then it really doesn't matter if this situation was real or not. She'd already worn out her welcome with the hospital and, regardless of her actual condition, she would've have been treated as just another addict screaming for drugs and attention. Why? Becuase that's how she presented herself so many times before.

Of course, we don't know if she was a frequent flier or not.

As DaveOT points out, we have "have no idea what the clinical presentation was or what workup was done". Just because you're vomiting blood doesn't mean you're about to die.

6/14/2007 11:04:57 PM

^it doesn't necessarily mean you're about to die, but it's a pretty bad sign. If that was happening when she initially showed up, then most likely she shouldn't have been discharged.

The "frequent flier" thing in itself isn't an excuse for not working up a patient. Substance abusers get other diseases too (many of them more frequently than the general population).

All I'm saying is that people probably shouldn't rush to make judgements based on one article, when we don't really know the details of what happened.

Also, before you lay blame on the physicians, stop and think that most of the time they have absolutely no idea what's going on in the waiting room--they're too busy seeing patients back in the ED.

6/14/2007 11:12:44 PM

^the second article did say that most of the blame lay on the nurse that wouldn't help her, and she resigned.

and it seems to me like she kept coming back to the hospital because she was actually sick (which she obviously was) not because she wanted drugs.

6/14/2007 11:32:53 PM

Look, whether she was illegal, a drug addict, or whatever, she has a fucking right to be treated in a life-threatening situation, and not just left there on the floor to die. NO MATTER WHAT. The same people that seem to think she should be left there to die because A. Illegal Alien or B. Drug Addict or C.No Insurance; are the same people that think abortion should be illegal because of the "right to life". What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

The fact is though, ERs are in shambles. I went to REX one night for low blood sugar, when I was in there, one woman having extreme chest pain sat there for an hour before even TALKING to a nurse the first time, then had to wait another 2.5 hours to go back, even at the 2.5 hour mark it was only because she was having such chest pain that she had to bitch out the ER director and say she was going to have her family sue for millions of dollars if she was having a heart attack and or died.

Then, an old man came in on a STRETCHER with an open wound on his leg from a car accident. He sat IN THE FUCKING ER ON THE STRETCHER for 2 hours before being taken back. The whole time he was cursing up a storm. I understand why I had to wait for a while, but you cant tell me the above cases should have been made to wait like they did in a hospital with a supposed good reputation.

Some shit needs to be fixed now.

6/14/2007 11:35:49 PM

yeah, some shit needs to change, people need to stop using the damn ED as their primary care physician.


classic example: Pt says: my back has been killing me for days now... and they just NOW came to the ED to have it checked out at 2am on the 6th day


and you wonder why EDs are so crowded? Shit like this.


as for the woman with chest pain not being seen first... i cant begin to say why she wasnt, i am not a triage nurse, but there is rationale and protocol behind every decision in the ED.... mostly protocol

[Edited on June 15, 2007 at 5:58 AM. Reason : btw how low did your blood sugar end up going?]

6/15/2007 5:58:09 AM

Quote :

"ook, whether she was illegal, a drug addict, or whatever, she has a fucking right to be treated in a life-threatening situation, and not just left there on the floor to die."

Call me a cold hearted prick if you want, but given that she was already treated hours earlier and the life threatening condition did not show up, too fucking bad for her.

I have no sympathy for people who fuck themselves up and expect someone else to fix it. She got what she deserved.

That said, given this hospital's history, they probably dropped the ball too, but at least it wasn't some child that died, just a drug addict.

6/15/2007 6:10:48 AM

everyone here is getting so worked up over this...and we don't even know the whole story.

don't believe everything that you read.

if ANYTHING....it was half the drug addicted, penniless, illegal immigrant's fault; half the overworked, poorly funded, hardly appreciated hospital's fault.

and if you think im taking a side here, im not. my descriptions of both parties derive from pity for them both.

6/15/2007 6:11:45 AM

^, ^^ well put

6/15/2007 6:40:20 AM

Quote :

"these people seemed like they were here legally"

Did you get that from the fact that they spoke not a lick of English?

6/15/2007 7:40:37 AM

Quote :

"Look, whether she was illegal, a drug addict, or whatever, she has a fucking right to be treated in a life-threatening situation, and not just left there on the floor to die. NO MATTER WHAT. The same people that seem to think she should be left there to die because A. Illegal Alien or B. Drug Addict or C.No Insurance; are the same people that think abortion should be illegal because of the "right to life". What a bunch of fucking hypocrites."

First, how does abortion fit into this thread? What paradigm are you trying to shoe horn people into?

No one has said that she deserved to die or that she should be denied treatment based solely on the fact that she may have been illegal, a drug addict, or anything else. If she was an addict who repeatedly used psuedo medical issues in an attempt to recieve drugs from the hospital, then her actions would have created a certain perception among hospital staff. That perception, based on the woman's own actions, would certainly affect subsequent treatment at the hospital.

Notice the 'if' at the beginning. In case you haven't noticed, this thread is largely based on conjecture. No one knows who this woman was, what her history was, or exactly what happened in the emergency room. At least we've moved past blaming the 911 operator for everything.

Quote :

"The fact is though, ERs are in shambles."

ERs are definitely over-used and under-manned. However, instead of writing it off to some sort of endemic indifference amongst emerency room workers, I hope you considered the fact that there may have been (and in fact probably were) more serious cases during your visit to the ER than your low blood sugar, the woman's chest pains, and the man's open wound.

6/15/2007 7:48:16 AM

i think lawyers should get involved to solve the problem.


the doctors/paramedics/cops wanted her to die - thats why they got into the business - to watch people die. Good thing there are more ER doc's and paramedics than we know what to do with, and plenty of extra emergency medical resources to ensure that nobody will ever die - regardless of their own personal stupid decisions. It's also a relief to know that ER/Trauma rooms are being opened at a record rate to ensure that they are nearby, well staffed, and available to help those in need. Whew, glad that they aren't abused by those who abuse themselves, can't afford healthcare (or just won't pay for it), and don't practice personal responsibility.

Damn those healthcare workers, just sitting around doing nothing and working their 2 hour days - tripping over each other with nothing to do.

yep - lawyers will solve this injustice and soak up the extra taxpayer dollars that would otherwise be used to gold-plate the bathroom fixtures in the unopened/spare ER's around the country. Bless you lawyers, bless you - the kingdom of heaven is yours.

6/15/2007 11:01:19 AM

^ a good post to lead up to: me saying: keep on doing drugs folks. Esp the cocaine!! It's called job insurance for me in 5-10 years. I'll be wiping your asses when you blow that aneurysm created from the high blood pressures secondary to all of that cocaine and meth.

6/15/2007 8:40:12 PM

Well from the looks of it ppl don't go to regular doctors anymore so instead of getting her gall stones treated...she left them untreated then these crazy people go to the hospital throwing up and pooping blood with a perforated colon. If people weren't so scared to make regular appts with the doctor instead of just going to the ER or urgent care all the damn time she could have saved her own life. But the way she died should not have happened. Looked like a place that was understaffed. One report said a janitor was mopping up bloody vomit from the area but didn't do anything to help. kk bye.

6/16/2007 12:56:35 AM

MAYBE IF THEY SPOKE ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!1ONE!!!!!1

6/16/2007 1:00:10 AM

well it sounded like the brother that called 911 spoke english
and i think throwing up blood in the emergency room is universal for i'ma die soon.

6/16/2007 1:07:10 AM

Quote :

"i think throwing up blood in the emergency room is universal for i'ma die soon."

hahaha

^^ get that shit out of here.

[Edited on June 16, 2007 at 1:14 AM. Reason : .]

6/16/2007 1:13:43 AM

Quote :

"from the County of Los Angeles Department of Coroner........ "The decedent is a 43 y/o hispanic female who led a quasi-transient lifestyle with a history of narcotic abuse. She presented to the ER at MLK Hospital several times in the weeks leading up to her death, always with the complaint of abdominal pan. On 5/9/07, she walked into the ER and collapsed. The decedent could not be resuscitated and died in the ER." "From the anatomic finding and pertinent history I ascribe the death to: consequences of perforated focal colonic diverticulitis" the lady was 5'6" & weighed 274 lbs. "Between May 6th and May 7th she was seen in the ER four times. On the first three occasions she had the diagnosis of biliary colic/gallstones. At this time she received pain medication wth Toradol, hydrmophone, morphine and hydrocodone. On the fourth occasion she presented to he hospital with abdominal pain and during this visit she was taken into custody on a warrant but went into cardiac arrest and expired. Autopsy findings show a megacolon/pseudo-obstruction associated with the effects of recent prescription medication intake. Methamphetamine use was also a contributory factor to her final demise. The autopsy does not show evidence of trauma. Thus, based on the history and circumstances, as currently known, the manner of death is accident.""

dont know if you all can read this or not, but here is the allnurses.com thread on this incident

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/female-pt-dies-ignored-nursing-staff-229979.html

[Edited on June 25, 2007 at 10:42 PM. Reason : catfight!]

6/25/2007 10:34:11 PM

Quote :

"the lady was 5'6" & weighed 274 lbs"

anyone know her TWW name?

6/26/2007 3:38:43 PM

mixing methamphetamines and heavy opiates, but somehow a 911 operator is responsible for her dying at the hospital she chose to go to.

6/26/2007 5:39:32 PM

this is AMERICA - nobody is responsible for themselves

lawyers ftw

6/28/2007 11:11:56 AM