1. i haven't owned a Miata in a while, although I'd like to have another one (i'd like to have a hot F-bod, too, but i can't have them all)

2. a Miata is one of the most pure examples of a sports car is that you can find. an F-body is most certainly not a sports car in any way, shape, or form.

3. dude, i read a Road & Track the other day while flying from CA to FL...other than that, I couldn't tell you the last time I read a car magazine. I've owned a good number of pretty neat cars ('71 Cutlass w/ 350 Rocket, YJ, turbocharged Miata, supercharged S2000, E46 330ci, Evo IX), so I have a pretty good bit of seat time in performance oriented cars. I've driven a bunch of other stuff by virtue of hanging out with other motorheads. All of that said, after driving a couple of last-gen F-bodies, I stand by my statement that they handle like boats. With stiff enough suspension bits and enough sticky rubber, they'll generate good "g" and respectable numbers around a circuit, but it's the bigger hammer approach to handling. It will never, ever FEEL like a sports car...it will just feel like a battleship that sticks pretty well...which is fine, really. if it turns at all, that's just a bonus--those cars are made to haul ass for cheap in a straight line, and they do that really well.

5/17/2007 10:46:34 PM

f-body is a pony car. never designed or intended to be a sports car. a pony car is a muscle car with some sports car traits.

i can vouch for duke, he generally knows wtf he's talking about if he posts even though he might lack alot of hands on experience with some things.

sumfoo1: your magazine graphic proves nothing for the sake of this discussion. since i seem to have to keep repeating myself, you can set up a sc to hit it's max boost (as designed for that system) well before peak rpm. it's not incredibley complicated to do or hard to understand.

the kits on that chart are designed to work with a WIDE array of setups, and are not even intended to hit their max boost levels at lower rpms.

your always going to get alot more from a system engineered to a specific application, turbo or sc. if turbo kits were as mass produced as sc's are, it would be a better comparison. turbos are generally very application specific. that's changing though.

it's great you design compressors and have what seems to be a solid engineering background, but sometimes you've got to drop that engineer mentality and see what actually takes place and works well in the real world, not on paper.

[Edited on May 17, 2007 at 11:23 PM. Reason : ,]

5/17/2007 11:22:10 PM

I'm talking about the run of the mill install that is on this damned car
there is no cog driven compressor with a bypass on it (which is the only way to spool it faster is to gear it high and the relieve the excess) on this car.

I'm stopping arguing here cause you're just sitting there like a 5 year old stomping your feet and saying NO! With no proof or backup at all.

SHOW ME A CAR THAT MAKES ITS MAX BOOST AT A USEFUL RPM AND HOLDS IT TILL REDLINE AND I WILL BELIEVE YOU. that is all i'm saying you can say no all day wrong but you have no proof cause it doesn't exist with a centrifugal.




see this map? what you need to do is to plot rpm vs cfm on this map the best you can....
and tell if you come out with a horizontal line (constant pressure ratio) keep in mind they have an overdrive from the motor too.

5/18/2007 7:23:49 AM

seriously, you can't really be this ignorant. if you can't understand the simple world of boost control, then you have no business in here. i'm not going to google something that elementary and basic for you.

Quote :

"I'm talking about the run of the mill install that is on this damned car"

quit backpedaling, you're the one that started using broad generalizations and comparisons. i stated more than once that you were going off on tangents unrelated to this particular vehicle, but you wanted to keep going. so here we are, way off topic and you're still wrong.

Quote :

"the only way to spool it faster is to gear it high and the relieve the excess"

durrr, could that be how it's done??? NO WAI!!!

5/18/2007 11:27:36 AM

Still no proof just bitching.
Show me a street driven supercharger with "boost control"



[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 11:41 AM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 11:39:58 AM

A properly set up 5psi centrifugal blower on an LS1 would probably generate over a 100 rwhp gain. I know that there are stock motored cars (with bolt ons and boost) close to 500rwhp.

I enjoy driving f-bodys sideways. They are an excellent platform for that.

5/18/2007 1:52:16 PM

back on topic, quick question. was the LS1 in these cars only from 98 on? if so what was in the earlier models?

5/18/2007 3:44:47 PM

yeah.

'93-97 was LT1

5/18/2007 3:59:21 PM

any real advantages / disadvantages between the LT1 and LS1?

5/18/2007 4:52:25 PM

lt1 has a bit of an oil leak issue, somewhat less powerful than the ls1

5/18/2007 5:06:45 PM

^^lt1s are cheaper to buy second hand, especially a steel block out of an impala SS, will generally require more investment to catch up (early Lt1 camaros and impala SS's had ~260-270 hp), but it's moot because the parts are dirt cheap and everywhere. when you do, they won't be as fuel efficient, but I think lt1's sound better than ls1s

5/19/2007 11:09:28 AM

All lt1s have cast iron blocks. Fbodys have aluminum heads, impalas have cast iron heads.

Obviously lt1 and ls1 fbodies have the exterior differences. 93-96 have slightly different interiors than 97+.
The engines are very different aside from the displacement and basic configuration(pushrod). Ls1s have aluminum blocks. Lt1s have optispark setup with a cam position sensor and distributor as 1 unit(common failure point), ls1s have coil over plug setup. Different accessories, lt1's waterpump is actually driven by the timing set.
Ls1s have much better brakes.
Transmission/rear end are practically the same. 4l60e (autos) do not last long with much power above stock, the t56s are very solid.
The cars have different clutch hydraulics setups where ls1's slave cylinder is actually in between tranny and engine but earlier ones(99-00) have a tendency to fail.
Power wise, the ls1s are ahead of lt1's by i'd say about 30-35rwhp stock, 01-02's get another 5-10. Ls1's are indeed more fuel efficient.
Reliability is similar for both.
Personally I'd look for a 01-02 6 speed.

[Edited on May 19, 2007 at 12:40 PM. Reason : int]

5/19/2007 12:40:15 PM

Just picked up a gorgeous black 97 Formula convertible. I checked out the one with the charger and upon looking closely just too much had been done to it for me to be comfortable with it. Fuel rails, pump, injectors, nitrous setup. Also looks like the heads have been changed so I would imagine the cam was as well.

^you mentioned the distributer failures, i had found that from looking as well. apparently the biggest issue is that they are right below the water pump. so basically any kind of leak you kill the cap and rotor at least, and possibly the distributer.

thus far very happy with the car, got a good deal on it due to the earlier year. 84k miles, looks like someone babied it, everything is in very good shape besides one or two little things that ive already started fixing. ie.. one of the pigtails is toast, coolant level sensor.... stupid little shit.

fairly powerful car, not exactly pin you in the seat power now but give me a little time. first true "muscle car" type ive had. lovin it.

5/19/2007 12:57:10 PM

Congrats on the purchase, I've had my LT1 since 2000 and driven/raced it almost 80k miles, it's been a great car all things considered, and it's even fairly quick now that I've warmed it over a bit...

5/19/2007 11:36:40 PM

good call on the formula vert. I'd love to have one but my 3800 will have to do me a while longer.

5/20/2007 6:23:24 PM

I love my 97 Z28 Vert, so welcome to the LT1 convertible club.

[Edited on May 20, 2007 at 10:12 PM. Reason : ]

5/20/2007 10:12:24 PM

good choice on the car. personally, i would have held out for an ls1 but the lt1 is a very good platform also. is it a 6 speed or auto?

Quote :

"Still no proof just bitching."

like i said before, i'm not wasting my time googling a very simple and basic concept for you. this is like asking for proof that you can control boost on a turbo. if you choose not to understand or learn about it, i could care less. i've told you it's possible, whether you want to believe it or not i could give a shit.

besides the obvious and most common way of doing a wastegate/dump valve/bov type setup, two speed systems are being developed and i've heard of a select few in use but have no direct experience with anything like that. that's ancient technology though, planes have used two speed sc's for decades. it will be a new concept to cars.

i realize this has become about centrifugal sc's, but just for good measure there are several auto makers that even use factory boost control systems for roots type chargers.

[Edited on May 21, 2007 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2007 1:06:10 AM

^ 6 speed

i thought about holding out but this one just happened to be a pretty good deal. the car is in great shape for the year. paints perfect, interior was in better shape than the newer ones i was looking at. appears to have been garage kept (indentations on the visor where a garage opener used to be)

im not planning on building a dragster or what not out of it. just a reliable, fun, and quick car. the limit ill prob take the engine of the next while is just a chip and an intake. eventually down the road prob a cam and some headers. figured if i can get a reliable 350+ horses out of it ill be happy.

5/21/2007 6:15:57 AM

^Yea thats kinda the plan with mine. Obviously a vert isn't going to be a track car or anything, but they are so much more fun, and don't really have the "look at my mullet" feel of the T-Tops. I just wanna be able to spank most stock Mustang GTs.

5/21/2007 7:25:56 AM

Quote :

"figured if i can get a reliable 350+ horses out of it ill be happy."

Not hard to do at all. Basic bolt ons (headers, CAI, full exhaust, dyno tune) will get you there at the flywheel, and it's doable to make as much as ~360rwhp (about 100 more than stock) with a cam+headers/bolt-ons setup.

On the subject of a "chip and intake", don't even bother with any sort of chip or Hypertech stuff/gimmicks for these cars. A dyno tune costs about the same and will do you a whole lot more good.
A few companies (Moroso, SLP, K&N, Lingenfelter) offer cold air intake kits. The K&N unit works well for ~$180. While you're at it, get the throttle body airfoil for $30 as well.

[Edited on May 21, 2007 at 10:35 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2007 10:28:47 AM

Quote :

"On the subject of a "chip and intake", don't even bother with any sort of chip or Hypertech stuff/gimmicks for these cars. A dyno tune costs about the same and will do you a whole lot more good."

exactly. try to get all of your planned bolt ons done before you get it tuned, that way it can be dialed in that much better for you specific car.

5/21/2007 11:42:21 AM

awesome motor ugly chassis. i lost to a bolt on ls1 sat night. as much as i hate to admit. the ls1 was created by god. dont try and take turns with it though.

5/21/2007 11:55:50 AM

Quote :

"exactly. try to get all of your planned bolt ons done before you get it tuned, that way it can be dialed in that much better for you specific car."

In my case, I waited for when I did a heads/cam/valvetrain swap before I did a dyno tune. With the stock programming and full bolt ons, it ran ok but rather rich. But your advice still stands as solid.

If I had a stock LT1 around (like I did, oh, about 6 years ago) and wanted to get a bit more power, I'd do, in this order:

KN intake kit and TB airfoil;

Some sort of catback exhaust;

Headers and Y pipe;

Then I would look at cam/valvetrain/heads mods and a dyno tune. But even if you don't go into the motor, the dyno tune is still a good thing to have, even for a car with bolt on mods only.

Eibach Pro-Kit (or GM 1LE) springs, Bilstein shocks, and a set of tubular LCA's are also good basic mods and work well with a good set of 17-inch wheels. They won't make the car any 'faster', but the added stiffness and responsiveness makes the car much more fun on the street. Oh, and DEFINITELY get a good shifter.

5/21/2007 12:36:15 PM

Quote :

"dont try and take turns with it though."

How many times do people have to be told that F-bodies are actually very common on road course circuits all over the damn country?

5/21/2007 12:38:02 PM

Wasn't there also a story last year about one of the top guys doing AutoX (locally, nationally, I dunno) who was doing it in a beater looking LS1 and kicking ass?

5/21/2007 12:44:35 PM

Quote :

"awesome motor ugly chassis. i lost to a bolt on ls1 sat night. as much as i hate to admit. the ls1 was created by god. dont try and take turns with it though."

an ls1 only has what 1.1 liters on you?

i've seen a 600hp n/a 5.2 liter dohc mod motor (built for boost just didn't have any yet) it can be done... people are just afraid to make the parts to do it so it requires a lot of custom work.

5/21/2007 1:16:56 PM

Quote :

"...says the Miata owner. There is a whole lot of magazine readers in this thread who don't know shit about what they speak......then again I guess its just TWW."

you don't have to own a sports car to know what is and isn't one.

5/21/2007 1:21:51 PM

in any case, a miata is most definitely a sports car

and the one i had was a pretty ass kicking sports car, at that.


i'm not an F-bod hater by any means...if i had several cars, i'd love to have a beefcake Z28...but i'd rather have a Miata with a built-to-death chassis and suspension than a wicked powerful Z28 any day, if I could only have one or the other.

5/21/2007 1:25:00 PM

Quote :

"ive only driven one so i maybe i had a bad example, but i dont see how a stock c5 is a good example of anything that can get around a road course well"

Who the hell can even make a statement like that? I've never driven one personally, but I know damn well that a C5 is a very good handling car.

what a joke...

5/21/2007 1:30:02 PM

Quote :

"an ls1 only has what 1.1 liters on you?"

uh, last i checked 5.7-5.0 =/ 1.1.

5/21/2007 4:42:56 PM

i assumed from his sn it was a 96 thus a 4.6 mod motor.

5/21/2007 4:58:39 PM

no, from his dumbass posts on hpj and here he's got a ragged ass fox that he thinks is fast. he also likes to drunk drift it into curbs. don't tell me you missed that thread...

5/22/2007 1:19:12 AM

Quote :

"If I had a stock LT1 around (like I did, oh, about 6 years ago) and wanted to get a bit more power, I'd do, in this order: KN intake kit and TB airfoil; Some sort of catback exhaust; Headers and Y pipe; Then I would look at cam/valvetrain/heads mods and a dyno tune. But even if you don't go into the motor, the dyno tune is still a good thing to have, even for a car with bolt on mods only."

quick question

-airfoil? new one to me.

first things first, all the maintenance things need to be done, all fluids changed, hoses, belts, possibly plugs. should be able to do this in the next couple weeks.

its got a catback on it now, so i guess an intake is next, i have already found a shop with a dyno close by that tunes this kind of car on a regular basis. so ill skip the chip and just let him tune it once an intake is installed. if headers arent too bad to get in there ill do that first.

another question, how hard is it really to install headers on this car? ive heard mixed stories in the past. they dont look impossible to get to but not a piece of cake either.

im going to stay away from the internals for now. once i get into that i can have it tuned again.

5/22/2007 7:50:05 AM

dont spend a dime on it, sell it and get an LS1 or keep it stock. youll always be playing catchup.

5/22/2007 8:12:44 AM

air foil is a piece that goes in the throttle body. headers can be a real pita to install, but the upside is they make other things MUCH easier (accessable) to work on in the future.

5/22/2007 8:23:13 AM

headers look like a rat bastard to install on that car. hell, spark plugs look fairly aggravating.

aren't headers for that generation f-bod ricockulously expensive, too?

5/22/2007 8:34:54 AM

spark plugs is one of the things i was speaking of that becomes very easy after headers.

they're not abnormally high in cost either. especially for something like pacesetters, which are actually a decent product for the lt1/ls1.

5/22/2007 8:57:48 AM

Header installs can be a real bitch, but they're not impossible. A good way to put it would be to say that it just requires patience. Someone who's done it before is also nice to have around. I'd do some research and get the ones you want.
But if you want my advice/experience, I'd say go ahead and do the long tubes right from the start. Pacesetter (~$350-400-ish), Hooker or Jet-Hot (~$500-ish) are the ones to have here. The Kooks stainless steel pieces are really nice too, but $$$. The MAC midlengths are just about the only other type of header worth a damn, and while they're ok, you have to watch the individual primary flanges on these--if the primaries bend/tweak at all, they'll always have a tiny leak (like mine did).

As stated, the airfoil is installed on the throttle body.

Spark plug access does indeed become a lot easier after headers are installed on one of these cars. Headers are probably one of the first mods you'll do where there is a very noticeable seat of the pants difference.

5/22/2007 9:32:23 AM

yeah, i was thinking they were like $1000 or something. i remember my buddy had an LT1 Z28 a few years ago, and wanted to put headers on it...he said they were all like $1000.

i guess he either was an idiot, or wanted some blingy shit.


i was like, "dude...you can slap a set of headers on an old Chevelle for like $100-200...what the fuck makes a set of headers for YOUR small block $1000?"

5/22/2007 9:33:06 AM

Wonder if its easiest to take the engine and tranny off the mounts, crank it up a bit with a cherry picker and pull the headers?

5/22/2007 10:31:37 AM

it can be a help to tweak it some, but not much. the biggest help though is being able to get the car high enough to install them from the bottom. getting it up enought with jackstands/blocks, access to a lift, etc.

5/22/2007 10:34:48 AM

Quote :

"it can be a help to tweak it some, but not much. the biggest help though is being able to get the car high enough to install them from the bottom. getting it up enought with jackstands/blocks, access to a lift, etc."

Correct. I've done 2 header installs on these cars and seen many more done. I've never seen someone have to jack the motor up.

A lift is pretty much essential though.

5/22/2007 10:50:55 AM

Quote :

"hell, spark plugs look fairly aggravating."

Yeah, I pretty much installed Tim's plugs. Took a few hours. God knows why I did it for him too...

5/22/2007 1:08:27 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, I pretty much installed Tim's plugs. Took a few hours. God knows why I did it for him too..."

patience isnt one of my strong suits either. im predicting alot of cussing.

anyone got a lead one where to find some info on an "air foil"? so i can get an idea of what your talking about. it was mentioned it was for the throttle body but who makes it? whats it actually do? how much?

5/22/2007 5:09:32 PM

Quote :

"an ls1 only has what 1.1 liters on you?"

yeah your right. actually it has .3 liters more than mine. had we been at the track i would have walked the dog on him. but this is real life and at 145 his car passed me like i was standing still. i ran out of gear and his car was strong

5/22/2007 5:16:36 PM

gotta love those tall gears.

5/22/2007 5:25:32 PM

that shit killed me. me and the other guy were like wow. and at about 110 115, um dude he pullen i hit 5 gear (world class trans) and it was fucking over. passed me at about 130 and at 145 i was agood 5-6 maybe 7 car lengths away

5/22/2007 5:28:52 PM

No doubt the LS1 will respond better to simple boltons that the LT1, but a carefully picked heads/cam combo with the boltons will go hand in hand with a LS1. There are ups and downs to each motor.

Start saving now for a MSD opti and an electric water pump.

5/22/2007 6:22:15 PM

this what you were talking about with an air foil?

http://www.lmperformance.com/1814/2.html

5/22/2007 7:36:01 PM

http://www.ws6.com/mod-4.htm

5/22/2007 7:41:45 PM