what a respectful title

4/20/2007 12:27:24 PM

replace "CCP" with "the right to carry a firearm" if you want

but I think you missed MY point - I'm saying people are saying "wow, if we all had guns this would not have happened" and I'm more pro-gun that most people but schools should always be gun-free. Now if there's an off-duty cop or something around...

4/20/2007 12:27:46 PM

no, we're not saying "if we all had guns, this wouldn't have happened."

and what makes an off-duty cop better than, say, me with a concealed weapon?

4/20/2007 12:29:34 PM

i dont have a problem with schools like elementary, middle, high schools being gun free

but college has a lot more adults

and again

Quote :

"people are saying "wow, if we all had guns this would not have happened""

who is saying that? i thought all everybody was saying was that "what if people already legally qualified and certified by the govt and FBI to carry concealed throughout Virginia could also carry on a 2600-acre campus"

4/20/2007 12:29:54 PM

i don't really have a problem with people legally carring concealed weapons at grade schools, either. it wouldn't be the students--you have to be 21.

i understand not having them at bars and courthouses (there is already armed security in a courtroom, anyway)...but schools are a different matter.

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 12:32 PM. Reason : sdfafsd]

4/20/2007 12:31:27 PM

Quote :

"who is saying that?"

AntecK7 said it:

Quote :

"If all the other students had been carryign firearms the death count may have only been one or 2. If the professors had been allowed to carry personal firearms death count would have been less."

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 12:31 PM. Reason : d]

4/20/2007 12:31:38 PM

yeah i just think something like this is so much less likely to happen at a grade school

and of course, no college student AT ALL could even APPLY for a concealed permit if they were 18 years old...or 19 years old...or 20 years old

over half the student population couldnt even legally apply for a CCP, let alone 'everyone carry guns'

^how come only the one dumbass is saying that is getting all the replies, and being being a lot more logical about it are getting ignored

4/20/2007 12:32:55 PM

yeah, yeah, we got it. he's the only person i've ever heard say that, and the rest of the pro-gun crowd here is saying "no, dude, that's fucking stupid."

4/20/2007 12:33:17 PM

Quote :

"yeah, yeah, we got it."

apprently not since the question was asked again.

4/20/2007 12:34:09 PM

4/20/2007 12:34:59 PM

^^ look, let's be real here:

The people clinging to the anti-gun side of this argument with hyperbolic, dreamed-up, Wolfpack at the O-K Corral scenarios aren't doing it because of one ill-conceived comment by AntecK7.

4/20/2007 12:37:38 PM

until the gun grabbers can produce a spokesperson that makes sense

or a politician that knows shit about the object they hate and want to introduce laws against


they will continually lose the gun debate

4/20/2007 12:40:01 PM

yeah, but laws aren't passed by a judge awarding points in a debate

fear-mongering and ignorance work just fine.

see: Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 as the most dimwitted example

4/20/2007 12:41:43 PM

yeah, no shit


they lose the debates


and win with the pop-culture "american idol" crowd

and thats all you need


as long as people are scared and they feel the government is providing them their security and safety

4/20/2007 12:44:27 PM

Quote :

"oh, but for the record, if i'd been in that situation, with either my trusty .45 or my old SIG, that douchebag would've been a dead motherfucker long before he killed 30 people "

Um..yeah...OK

4/20/2007 1:15:19 PM

why do you not believe him


I fully believe that if I was carrying in that room I could have prevented it also



I don't want to kill anyone, but I would in a heartbeat if my life was in danger

4/20/2007 1:17:49 PM

Why should I believe..my point is, people are coming into this argument with this "hell, yeah..he wouldn't have fucked with me if I were there with my weapon"



]

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 1:22 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/20/2007 1:18:59 PM

is it that inconceivable to you that some people take their safety and security as a personal responsibility?


I'm sorry, I'll fight before I'll die

4/20/2007 1:21:49 PM

^^you apparently still dont understand what people are proposing

simply that people already qualified by the govt and fbi to carry concealed should be able to carry concealed on campus

by your rationale, since ~40 states currently have concealed carry laws/permits, there should already be all types of crazy Rambo shootouts all over the place...which there arent

you know what would happen to a grad student who legally had a Virginia Concealed Carry Permit and chose to carry his gun on campus if he were to get caught with it...he would be expelled...no graduate degree from him...course you cant get a graduate degree if you get shot and killed in a classroom either

4/20/2007 1:22:01 PM

Quote :

"you apparently still dont understand what people are proposing "

Thank you for thinking that you know what I don't understand..but you're wrong.

4/20/2007 1:25:24 PM

well gosh you sure do like to make long posts to explain exactly what you know...how could anyone be confused?

4/20/2007 1:26:40 PM

They weren't that long of a post

4/20/2007 1:27:47 PM

i know...thats my point...ok heres what i'm going off of

Quote :

"I don't know if it's that great of an idea of a classroom where everyone is carrying a concealed weapon. Suppose someone comes in shooting at a class, and everyone instinctively started shooting back in self-defense? You'd have a gunfight going on, and people are going to end up injured and killed in the crossfire. Sure it's a hypothetical situation, and I can't say what would happen in that situation, but an outcome like that is possible. There's so many people saying shoulda, coulda, woulda, but it seems like the ones most vocal are the ones who think they're such badasses that they would have easily taken the guy down if they were in that situation."

"everyone is carrying a concealed weapon" != "the small number of people at least 21 years of age who are already qualified through govt training and fbi background checks to carry concealed anywhere else in the state of virginia thats not a govt building or does not serve alcohol carrying a concealed weapon"

people with CCPs are not just some rambo shoot first at anything types of people...they have gotten training and in many cases have been taught responsible gun safety all their lives

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 1:34 PM. Reason : .]

4/20/2007 1:29:23 PM

You don't have a point...you're too busy picking on the semantics ofmy posting to read actually what I'm saying..I don't care if it's EVERYONE (there's that word you love) or one person in the class qualified to carry a concealed weapon, noone can say with certainty how the outcome would have been different or the situation prevented.

4/20/2007 1:31:32 PM

as long as there is a chance to prevent it I'm happy

4/20/2007 1:32:50 PM

Quote :

"If I remember correctly, he was admitted to a mental hospital where he was evaluated and found to be a threat to himself and others and the the facility failed to properly file the findings so that it didn't turn up when the shop owner ran a background check to sell the gun."

He was evaluated and found to be a threat to himself, NOT OTHERS.

4/20/2007 1:33:51 PM

Quote :

"noone can say with certainty how the outcome would have been different or the situation prevented. "

noone can say anything with certainty on any hypothetical situation...what the hell is your point?

how do you not think a couple people with CCPs in the building might not have lowered the body count?

4/20/2007 1:35:03 PM

Quote :

"You don't have a point...you're too busy picking on the semantics ofmy posting to read actually what I'm saying..I don't care if it's EVERYONE (there's that word you love) or one person in the class qualified to carry a concealed weapon, noone can say with certainty how the outcome would have been different or the situation prevented. "

OK, of course most everyone agrees with you. There is no way anyone can say what would have happenned.

How is this an arguement against extending those already allowed to carry concealed to campuses?

4/20/2007 1:35:07 PM

one thing i can say for CERTAIN is that since nobody had a weapon except the shooter, nobody couldve shot the shooter and prevented him from killing as many people as he did

4/20/2007 1:38:18 PM

as long as handguns are legal, concelaed weapons provisions are fine by me. BUT i think that we should phase out handguns anyway.

4/20/2007 2:11:09 PM

if you'd change "legal" to "available", more people would agree with you

4/20/2007 2:17:26 PM

that's what i mean

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 2:21 PM. Reason : hence the "phased out" part]

4/20/2007 2:21:06 PM

yeah... I hear ya... legal and available are different terms however

I'd be happy if we could just get them out of the hands of the wrong people too

4/20/2007 2:22:43 PM

Quote :

"as long as handguns are legal, concelaed weapons provisions are fine by me. BUT i think that we should phase out handguns anyway. "

Not trolling, I'm interested in realistic ideas on how to do this. My perspective on things like this is a numbers-based, cost-benefit analysis. There's only so much we as a people can get done in a day, month, year, etc. Is a solution feasable, and are the resources it removes from other important objectives worth it?

4/20/2007 2:27:54 PM

i think the number of handgun deaths in this country makes it a very high priority to me. but of course, this logistically would be a nightmare.

4/20/2007 2:29:32 PM

getting all the handguns from all the criminals (phasing them out) could take decades, if its even possible

4/20/2007 2:30:05 PM

i agree. but i see no reason not to try. and the sooner the better.

4/20/2007 2:31:25 PM

well we are trying...i mean any time a criminal is arrested and found to be in possession of a gun, its taken...or anytime somebody has a search warrant and finds an unregistered gun, or a gun in the possession of a felon, etc...its taken...but what more do you do to get rid of the existing guns that criminals have?

more stringent tests/requirements for getting guns seems like a good idea, but how would that have any effect on the guns that criminals currently have

4/20/2007 2:32:29 PM

for one thing, it should be a phased limiting of availability of new handguns (like restricting what groups can get them -- ie stricter screening/training regimens to even owning a handgun). but the actual specifics i couldn't speak to, because i don't know enough about it.

this would by no means be an easy thing. it would be a long effort that would have to have bipartisan/multi-administration support (which i imagine won't ever happen) but why can't i dream?

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 2:36 PM. Reason : -t]

4/20/2007 2:35:33 PM

you can dream...and i concur that more stringent tests from the get go would help

but what more than what i said (confiscating guns found on/with criminals) can you do about the guns that are currently out there in the wrong hands?

4/20/2007 2:37:20 PM

i'm not sure. but making handguns harder to come by for law-abiding citizens will increase the effort similarly for criminals over time.

4/20/2007 2:39:45 PM

OK, some background since I'm a long-time lurker and you guys don't have a knowledge of my bias. I am a CCP holder, been shooting since I was 5, Army for 4 years while I was starting college, voted for CLinton, Gore, Bush. Come from a family of Southern Democrats who pretty much have voted majority Republican tickets since 94 until last election when it was more of a 50-50 split. I would probable best be described as Libertarian if you forced me into a corner.


Twista, I think that in addition to that there are some regs we could have on handgun purchases such as limiting where they can be sold and by whom to a much stricter standard than we have now.

I would like to see a sensical approach to this, like aknowledging that if a citizen is OK (background check wise) to purchase a firearm, he should have little, if any regulation beyond that. However, what is the harm in extending at least some of the care we take in issueing CCP's to the purchase of these weapons in the first place?

edited to add: damn you guys post fast, ya'll are past me allready

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 2:43 PM. Reason : .]

4/20/2007 2:41:21 PM

Quote :

"i'm not sure. but making handguns harder to come by for law-abiding citizens will increase the effort similarly for criminals over time."

If that was true, then you'd think that Crystal Meth would be hard to get these days.

4/20/2007 2:44:12 PM

is it that easy to just make your own handgun?

4/20/2007 2:45:27 PM

Quote :

" If that was true, then you'd think that Crystal Meth would be hard to get these days. "

While I agree that making things illeagal does nothing to stop their availability, handguns aren't exactly chemically addictive either.

4/20/2007 2:47:11 PM

Maybe not for YOU!!!!


j/k

4/20/2007 2:53:25 PM

people can make their own firearms


not to mention... curio and relic arms which have don't have much in the way of regulation... bombs are easy as hell to make, a shotgun is easy to build too...

4/20/2007 3:01:40 PM

yes they can. but i think it's unreasonable to expect handguns to ever be completely eliminated. but i think their numbers could be drastically reduced and the safety of americans would improve as a result.

4/20/2007 3:05:59 PM

Quote :

"If that was true, then you'd think that Crystal Meth would be hard to get these days."

actually, a report came out within the last couple of months that showed crystal meth is getting harder to come by, and almost all domestic production has been shut down. It's all coming from mexico now, and the cartels down there are robbing pharma plants to get the pseudoephedrine

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 3:10 PM. Reason : typo]

4/20/2007 3:09:43 PM

Quote :

"almost all domestic production has been shut down"

how the hell do they know that

4/20/2007 3:14:07 PM