^^Inu means dog in Japanese. In Japan they do not use it, so it's just Akita, Shiba, and Tosa.

^Where are you getting your info? I have never seen a purebred Shiba in the US or Japan larger than a miniature poodle. All in the 20lbs range and all about knee height.

[Edited on November 4, 2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason : merf]

11/4/2006 10:38:39 AM

well, its what my breeder told me. Now...perhaps they were blowing smoke up my ass, but I don't think so. My pup's 4 1/2 months old and already 18~19 lbs.

11/4/2006 12:19:07 PM

perhaps you got ripped

11/4/2006 12:20:28 PM

From the AKC: "Males 14½ inches to 16½ inches at withers. Females 13½ inches to 15½ inches. The preferred size is the middle of the range for each sex. Average weight at preferred size is approximately 23 pounds for males, 17 pounds for females."

"Disqualification--Males over 16½ inches in dogs and under 14½ inches. Females over 15½ inches and under 13½ inches."

I'm just confused as to why a breeder of purebred animals would breed dogs that could never qualify for shows...

11/4/2006 12:26:20 PM

^ just b/c someone is a breeder DOES NOT make them aware of the breed standard! Shit, I know of several "breeders" that breed Australian Shepherds (my breed of choice) and don't even know that you can't breed 2 merles together or that aren't supposed to have Ivermectin. The word breeder doesn't mean anything, unfortunately.

11/4/2006 12:30:34 PM

They don't have to qualify for shows. Breeders normaly breed them for their own preferences anyway. Kinda like their own style of dog (genes; head, coat, posture etc).

11/4/2006 12:41:29 PM

^&^^I have not dealt with dog breeders, ours are generally rescues, but I know that breeders of other species (cats, chins, rabbits, cavies, etc) consider it a sin if you breed an animal and aren't doing your best to improve the whole line and show the animal. I realize there are backyard breeders, but I was kinda thinking TKE got his from a registered Shiba breeder.

Plus I'm just mystified by the wrong info being given about size. Shibas are teeny! Which is the main reason humandrive and I decided against getting one, we want a big dog who'll skateboard with us.

[Edited on November 4, 2006 at 1:21 PM. Reason : merf]

11/4/2006 1:20:00 PM

back yard breeders can have registered dogs. It is the reputable show dog breeders who want to pass on dogs that make the breed better. Not just a trait that the individual likes.

11/4/2006 2:02:12 PM

^I'm not talking about registered dogs, anybody can register a dog, I'm talking about breeders who are registered with the AKC.

11/4/2006 3:59:20 PM

so am I. Backyard breeders can have akc registered dogs as well. I am not trying to start a fight, i am trying to let people know that registered dogs doesn't mean shit anymore. Even AKC registered...

11/4/2006 5:22:03 PM

Gahh, you're not listening. I know anyone can breed a dog, but there is also a BREEDER registry. AKC has a registered list of recommended breeders, not just dogs themselves.

11/5/2006 12:27:44 PM

i know. and i am saying that list doesn't mean a damn thing. If you go to the Breed Club they can recommend a reputable breeder.

so maybe you aren't listening to me!

11/5/2006 2:55:20 PM

Sorry, but you kept saying registered "dog" so I didn't think you knew what I was talking about. It really does matter though, seeing as TKE already has his dog and the other person just wants to know about the Shibas's personality, which we've already answered. Wow this thread just keeps trucking on.

Oh and I kinda wanted TKE to post again to see what he thought, cause I'm thinking his breeder was whack and he got swindled.

[Edited on November 5, 2006 at 3:44 PM. Reason : merf]

11/5/2006 3:42:45 PM

The whole litter isn't going to be perfect. There will be atleast one or two non-showable dogs per litter most of the time and those are the ones that get sold as pets because they are cheaper. Most of the Shibas that come into the vet I work at are just under or above 30 lbs.

11/5/2006 7:24:11 PM

Quote :

"From the AKC: "Males 14½ inches to 16½ inches at withers. Females 13½ inches to 15½ inches. The preferred size is the middle of the range for each sex. Average weight at preferred size is approximately 23 pounds for males, 17 pounds for females." "Disqualification--Males over 16½ inches in dogs and under 14½ inches. Females over 15½ inches and under 13½ inches." I'm just confused as to why a breeder of purebred animals would breed dogs that could never qualify for shows..."

My breeder is AKC qualified. http://www.icewindfarm.com/ And don't worry, I wasn't swindled. Before getting my Shiba, my concern was the size, as I don't want a dog that is too small. At the breeder I looked at about 7 puppies, the one I picked being the largest there. They told me that he was the largest of the litter and would probably be larger than usual. So its not like I'm not getting what I thought I was. I don't plan on showing my Shiba, so I don't care if he's outside of the show "qualifications".

So not to worry

11/5/2006 11:48:32 PM

Quote :

"The whole litter isn't going to be perfect. There will be atleast one or two non-showable dogs per litter most of the time and those are the ones that get sold as pets because they are cheaper."

The opposite is true actually for most dog litters - one or two in each litter of prospective show worthy dogs are actually show quality. These are from matings of quality line-bred dogs, or crossbreedings of different lines that are successful in the show ring. Most of the puppies produced in those litters will have faults such as bad bite, incorrect texture of hair, height or length of tail, etc.

Having a dog that is AKC registered really means nothing now a days. Registering a dog with the AKC only means that: Yes, I have a dog that has come from a mix of other dogs that were registered with the AKC, and also means that I'm just supporting the insane buocracy of the AKC. (Did you know that the board members tried to secretively make a deal with PetLand Pet Stores - so that any puppy sold from them *usually supplied by puppy mills* would get a discount when they registered their dog when they purchased it? This would have generated a shit load more money for the AKC as well as helped continue to support puppy millers. The board members tried to get this partnership started without the approval of actual AKC members...once this scandal was found out by the dog industry public (AKC members, breed clubs) they protested heavily and revoked the deal)

Now, getting your dog from a registered breeder from the AKC is like a double edged sword. Many of the puppy millers out there are a registered breeder with the AKC. But to get the contact of a referred breeder from the AKC website, it takes your information and actually sends it to the breed club and will get you the information from a club member nearest you. Those are actually reputable breeders due to the fact that to participate in a breed club you must follow strict guidelines as far as breeding purposes goes, and they're difficult to join.

Regardless, love your puppy - and enjoy what it can give you as far as it's companionship and personality. Please Spay and Neuter your dogs though and be a responsible pet owner.

11/6/2006 9:49:09 AM

Please define a puppy mill. It's funny that a store that used to be Petland but no longer is sells puppies who are also APR registered which donates some of the registration costs to shutting down unhealthy breeders or as everyone likes to call "puppy mills." So it would seem that if this store was gathering dogs from a puppy mill and selling them that they would be doing more harm to themselves in helping the APR registry to shut down their breeder. The true definition of puppy mill is anyone who breeds multiple types of dogs. No where does it state that the conditions are unsanitary. Yes of course there are some breeders that do not take care of their animals and should be shut down but do not assume that everyone is that cruel. Some breeders are smart enough to know that a longstanding business will not happen if they sell "faulty equipment" consistently.

The most responsible thing for anyone to say is to do your research. If you are interested in a certain breed or a particular breeder/pet store check it out. Ask questions about the health use your own instincts. If the dogs look sick, unhealthy, maybe you should report them and choose not to purchase from them. Keep an open mind because stereotypes have never done anyone any good. You might just find that there are some "puppy mill" owners who work WITH the government to shut down unsanitary places and even created laws to protect the welfare of puppies bred in their state. Don't spread your ignorance around to everyone else.

11/6/2006 12:47:10 PM

I'm not out to start an argument or huge debate. I've done plenty of research. I do not, and will not support any business or facility that breeds dogs for a profit only basis - which includes the good and the bad "puppy mills" (those businesses who breed more than one breed of dog in whatever environment you say they do for the sole purpose of profit) and backyard breeders. It's ridiculous considering how over populated the nation is with homeless dogs and cats. There are plenty of pure bred dogs that are now in rescues or in pounds in dire need of good homes because they were impulse buys (more than likely from your grand pet stores) that are in those situations because the pet parent was not educated on the breed, or how to take care of it.
I'm involved with breeders of show dogs, those breeders actually care for and breed for the improvements of the dog to better the standard. Any animals who are not used for show and are not suited for breeding programs to better the lines are sold to loving pet homes with a spay/neuter contract. Any animal that is placed in pet homes, regardless of where it comes from should be sold with a spay/neuter contract to control the pet population.
I myself have two purebred dogs that were both rescues: a Scottish Terrier and an English Bull Terrier. They are quality dogs, with great personalities who needed good homes. So, I don't see why others who are looking for a dog can't also do the research, quality seller or rescue route as well, instead of going the classifieds, puppy mill, puppy store route. Excoriator who started this thread started out right by asking questions, and making sure he found out what the breed he's interested is like. Kudos to him!

11/6/2006 2:30:11 PM

If overpopulation is an issue to you why support any breeder at all? Why not ban breeding until the dogs that don't have a home find one? Why let dogs in the SPCA get euthanized because someone out there is breeding to "better" some standards which rarely get met. Maybe one dog out of a litter of 4-6 will be show quality. This means any dog with an ear that won't stand quite right or a jawline that doesn't meet correctly, a tail that's too long now needs a home. "Show dog breeders" are also in it for a profit. It takes a lot of time, care, and money to breed animals, they must sell to keep their "business" going. They must show to make any sort of profit.

People breeding "show dogs" to get specific qualities will use close inbreeding to achieve these goals. I don't see how they're any better than any other breeder. Besides standards are always changing, most purebreds today are mixes of other dog breeds in the past. A dog is a dog and is in no way perfect nor should it be bred for that goal. Why do you think so many purebred dogs are having health issues like messed up teeth an such? Inbreeding to get "good qualities" can also magnify the bad ones. This is why most mixed muts have less congenital defects.

Basically, do your research. Find out on your own through whatever medium you're interested in. Ask the people you are considering purchasing from, otherwise you're just gonna get a bunch of opinions based on ignorance or what they've been told from other people.

11/6/2006 2:54:56 PM

Good, reputable breeders don't breed for profit, they breed dogs to better that particular breed. Reputable show breeders only breed 1-2 litters per year. Any dogs that aren't show quality are sold with a strict spay/neuter contract and all dogs have to be returned to the breeder if the new owner can't keep them.

The damn petstores you are talking about sell dogs to people that haven't done any research and don't take the dogs back. They only care about the money and if you think otherwise then you are the ignorant one. They don't do any background checks on the dogs and don't keep up with them after the first check. I can't wait until the day our government opens their eyes and shuts down all of these petstores. Other states have already started this and it will not be long (hopefully) before it happens here.

If you only knew how many people get dogs from petstores and back yard breeders and then the dogs end up either euthanized at shelters or end up in rescues.

Responsible breeders keep up with their dogs for the rest of their lives. Also, reputable breeders most of the time do rescue too. So they not only take care of their own dogs they have produced but they clean up the idiotic, non-reputable breeders shit too.

http://www.dachsie.org/petstore.html

Wheezer unfortunately some people will never get it. I once worked at a petstore that sold puppies and kittens and I was the ignorant employee that didn't see anything wrong with it. Once I found out, I quit and it will be a cold day in Hell before I go back. I will not even shop at a place that sells dogs or cats. Be at peace that at least you know and you are one more person that is trying to help the problem.

11/6/2006 6:21:12 PM

Odie - I'm the same... I won't step foot in a store that sells dogs or cats. It's INHUMANE. They are locked up in little cages all day, and if they're lucky some one might want to play with one during the day. Too many times have I walked in to a pet store with labs, goldens, and other larger breed puppies stuck in those little cells with no room to really play, and on grated surfaces. They have no socialization, and will probably develop problems due to being in such a confined space. Puppies should be raised in loving homes with back yards where they can explore and be a dog!

Kiwi, most people who breed for show know they aren't going to make a profit - and they don't. It's rare to make a profit off of dogs unless you're these puppy millers or backyard breeders who don't give a damn and will constantly breed their bitches until they die. The people I associate myself with (the majority of those who show) rarely have litters, and when they do, have strict interview processes for those people who want one of their dogs. Every breed club that I've researched as of late have had well funded programs to help combat and to research the causes of genetic disorders that are commonly found in their breed. People are not inbreeding to achieve those goals now - people are importing new lines of dogs from all over the world to widen the gene pool available. For example, serious Scotty exhibitors are now importing quality dogs from Brazil to add to breeding programs because they have excellent traits.

11/6/2006 11:24:17 PM

If they don't breed for profit then why breed at all? I'm sure those "reputable" breeders are well aware of the overpopulation of dogs filling up rescues groups and SPCAs. They're only helping "pet store" dogs or other bred dogs to end up on the street by losing one more empty home. I'm not saying every single pet store and backyard breeder is perfectly fine, cruelty does exist and should be stopped. I think it's unfair to slay all pet stores/breeders across the board when there are good people out there trying to find the right homes for these animals.

11/6/2006 11:57:40 PM

How can you say that they are trying to find good homes for these dogs, when most buys are impulse buys and the people don't do research? The store, byb doesn't know anything about the home situation or what kind of vet care they will give the animal. They sell intact dogs so people can still breed.

11/7/2006 8:16:54 AM

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=385894&page=6
<- rescued 43 dogs & puppies from 1 shelter.
they would have been put to sleep if I (or someone else) hadn't rescued them.
Many of them were purebreds and all had wonderful temperments.
I keep up with every dog I place in a home. I get pictures and updates and it's awesome knowing I saved a life and gave someone a great dog.

I agree with everything Odie and Wheezer have said. you girls have made excellent points and thank you for being so compassionate and vocalizing your feelings and the truth
but face it the majority of people in this world are too selfish to see it any other way. everyone is so money hungry and focuses on nothing else then getting ahead. People decide they want a dog and they go buy a dog at the first place they find one they like. You can't get mad at people for not knowing about their other options. A lot of people wouldn't think that they could find a purebred dog in a shelter or rescue. It doesn't make them a bad person.
I'm sure if they had experienced what we've done. actually going to doggie death row and choosing ones we will take home and find homes for... knowing the ones we leave behind will ultimately be put down... then maybe their opinion on the matter would change.


sure i could have a few extra thousand dollars if I hadn't rescued and taken care of so many animals.It'd be nice to have some nice things.. but i'm not materialistic.
I'm by no means rich. (teachers get embarassing salaries). but i do what i can to make a difference.

Anyways sorry for preaching but it is an issue I feel strongly about. 4-5 million dogs and cats are put to sleep every year in the US. that's a hard number to ignore.

Good luck Excoriator.
Have you found any good breeders or an animal from a breed rescue that you like?

11/7/2006 9:47:05 AM

How can you say that every single pet store does not explain the temperments of specific breeds to people who are interested in buying? How can you say pet stores don't ask people to think about it over night? How can you say some pet stores don't make people read about the issues they could encounter in the future? How can you say some pet stores don't simply hand them the dog after hearing say "that's the one" but go through an hour long or even more process of explaining the needs, the responsibilities, and the supplies the puppy will need to be happy, don't you think in that time period those impulse buyers would feel reality sink in and either think about it overnight or realize the responsibility they're after? Do you think all pet stores refuse to take dogs back that maybe haven't found the perfect home so they can try again with someone better? I wouldn't purchase from a breeder that wanted to inspect my home and become intrusive because I wanted to save a life and take it in as my own. We don't even have this kind of screening for human breeding, sounds a little too close to the works of PETA.

Rescues are great, I rescued an animal about a month ago. I also purchased a dog from a pet store. Both have been wonderful additions to the household. I also spent about two years deciding which breed would fit in best with my lifestyle. Taking an animal into your home is one more life saved whether it be from a pet store, a backyard breeder, or some "reputable" breeder.

11/7/2006 1:36:33 PM

This really ought to be moved to soap box at this point, cause it's just someones opinion against someone else's opinion.

11/7/2006 1:39:37 PM

So anyway, those Shibas are some great dogs!

11/7/2006 1:41:09 PM

11/7/2006 2:07:19 PM

we had a shiba at the kennel over the weekend. great dog, a little dominant, but nothing that couldn't be controlled.



i hate these arguments...

11/7/2006 9:04:09 PM

My coworker has two shibas that she brings to work frequently and lets them sit behind the front desk. They're very friendly, smart, sociable. One of them isn't too keen with bigger dogs he doesn't know but that's something you work with from the puppy stage. Only consistent thing I've heard about Shibas is they love to be the dominant one and can sometimes be stubborn about it, just make sure from day one you are the boss.

11/8/2006 2:29:22 PM