knock 'em down

[Edited on March 12, 2006 at 12:34 AM. Reason : .]

3/12/2006 12:28:43 AM

friend in HS committed suicide, we had talked about it a few times... not about him or me doing it, but things like what our religions said about it and stuff. it wasnt until he was found dead in his truck that I thought about it, and realized that I shouldve said something to someone. that fucked me up for a long damn time, and the shitty thing is, i dont know how to feel about it... its pointless to be pissed at him for doing it, and pointless to be mad at myself for not speaking out... ugh, im drunk

3/12/2006 1:17:03 AM

dirtygreek- i' sorry for the situation you're in i understand it

i probably will someday. its one of those things i've already made up my mind about. ive made my peace this life is already a part of the next im not afraid of dying just get up one day beautiful day good day to die

3/12/2006 9:14:11 AM

^what?

3/12/2006 9:16:27 AM

he said it was on his to do list. just a matter of convenience now.

3/12/2006 9:37:54 AM

Haha, even if it were on my list I'd never get around to doing it.

But that's 'coz I'm a lazy ass.

3/12/2006 10:13:02 AM

Quote :

"ive made my peace this life is already a part of the next"

If you were really at peace, you'd have a desire to continue living, not hope for an afterlife.

3/12/2006 11:27:56 AM

I'm thinking true nonexistence would be the most peaceful.

It's a debatable point, though.

3/12/2006 11:37:30 AM

^Oh, it is. You can't have problems if you don't exist. But peace isn't the only reason to live or not. Being conscious can be good too.

3/12/2006 12:16:49 PM

my great uncle killed himself when I was a little girl. He really had no family- never married, no kids, he was 70. He only had like 2 nephews, my dad would take us to visit him sometimes but really he had no one. Just got drunk one night, wrote a little note, and shot himself in the head. He had a good job, lots of old family land, no real reason to kill himself that others could see. He was just alone.

3/12/2006 12:22:58 PM

I just don't understand how anyone that has been depressed can't see that it is completely self-absorption, without thought about those that care about you and would want you to be happy. It's difficult to get out of depression because you find yourself enjoying feeling sorry for yourself, and it's easier to stay in that state than to fight it. Therein lies the selfishness.

3/12/2006 3:08:59 PM

the selfishness is from the people who'd rather have someone suffer for the rest of their life just so they can be happy that someone they know isn't dead.

I'm sick of people casting suicide in a horrible light. It is a beautiful thing and should be appreciated.

3/12/2006 3:20:21 PM

the problem is:

1) people often suffer because of their own actions. they often can get help and work out of it.
2) people dont generally choose to have ppl they love die. it isnt like your friends are doing you a favor by being alive either.

3/12/2006 3:31:35 PM

^that may be true, but suicide functions as help.

3/12/2006 3:34:56 PM

perhaps, but that kind of help poses a negative on others and breaks even for you. you could have done as much without the ill effects to others...thus the selfish label.

3/12/2006 3:52:43 PM

Quote :

"I just don't understand how anyone that has been depressed can't see that it is completely self-absorption, without thought about those that care about you and would want you to be happy. It's difficult to get out of depression because you find yourself enjoying feeling sorry for yourself, and it's easier to stay in that state than to fight it. Therein lies the selfishness."

I punched a girl in the face. She started crying. She doesn't think about those that care about her and want her to be happy. It's difficult to stop crying because you find yourself enjoying crying, and it's easier to stay in that state than to fight it. Therein lies the selfishness.

That self-absorbed bitch.

3/12/2006 4:34:08 PM

It is my belief that people that kill themselves because they are sad/lonely are taking the easy way out. Instead of manning up and solving their problems, they figure the only solution is to die. Everyone gets depressed sometimes, that is life. However, I think what makes a true man (or woman) is when they have the perseverance and courage to pull themselves out of it.

3/12/2006 4:49:43 PM

Quote :

"e had a good job, lots of old family land, no real reason to kill himself that others could see. He was just alone."

being alone is plenty reason to entertain thoughts of suicide. fuck the job, you earn that. the family land, you inherit that. but the company, and love, of another person? that's something you can't earn or inherit. it just sort of happens. and to those it doesnt, my heart goes out to them. i'd say most people in this world that commit suicide do so because they're alone.

3/12/2006 11:45:18 PM

Quote :

""I've known this guy since he was 12. His state of mind was perfectly fine; he just couldn't bring himself to change things.""

two kinds of people in the world, poeple that make an excuse, and people that find a way. suicide too much of an easy way out for them in their eyes. dont want to go through the struggle of changing shit, jsut rather off themselves than be a failure at one point in time.

Quote :

""This too shall pass""

3/13/2006 12:08:34 AM

^^ I understand that being lonely is a main cause. What I don't understand is why some people think that just because they are alone right now that they are destined to be alone forever. What if the day after you commit suicide is the day you were destined to meet that someone?

3/13/2006 2:38:09 AM

Quote :

"What if the day after you commit suicide is the day you were destined to meet that someone?"

pretty shitty of god/karma/whatever to pencil in your chance of redemption the day after they destined for you to off yourself.

3/13/2006 3:22:57 AM

Quote :

"two kinds of people in the world, poeple that make an excuse, and people that find a way. suicide too much of an easy way out for them in their eyes. dont want to go through the struggle of changing shit, jsut rather off themselves than be a failure at one point in time."

that is bullshit. Suicide isn't a spur the moment thing. For many individuals they think and ponder the suicide long enough to know that it is what they truly want. And everyone's condesending attitudes towards individuals who have attempted suicide or have suceeded are not what is needed. People like you are assholes.

3/13/2006 11:03:57 AM

Quote :

"pretty shitty of god/karma/whatever to pencil in your chance of redemption the day after they destined for you to off yourself."

I don't think it is shitty at all. This life sucks, the next one is probably better. Fear and deeply ingrained genetics is what keeps us around.

3/13/2006 11:06:06 AM

^^
not our fault they dont change their situation.

and they arent assholes for being selfish?

3/13/2006 2:10:43 PM

^^ I really was just responding to loudRyan's apparent misunderstanding of how predestinatoin works.

3/13/2006 2:19:29 PM

^ I agree I should have worded that better, especially since I don't believe in predestination. The sentence should have read:

What if the day after you commit suicide is the day you would have met that someone?

3/13/2006 6:02:52 PM

what if it was the day things got worse.

3/13/2006 11:41:34 PM

^ If you're on the verge of killing yourself, how much worse can it get? My point was that you never know what the future holds. Everyone gets depressed sometimes, I think there are two trains of thought when it happens:

1. Life sucks and will always suck

2. Life sucks now but I know it will get better

I choose to go with number 2. I say, I know it will get better, then I identify what is in my control to make things better. Then I work at it.

I am not trying to look down upon someone who has tried/done it. I was raised in a good home and do not pretend to have gone through some of the hardships that many people have. I am just trying to give you my outlook on situations.

3/14/2006 12:02:44 AM

hell im a fairly happy guy with a beautiful loving girlfriend and a pretty damn good life and i think about suicide pretty often.

3/14/2006 1:02:48 AM

Quote :

"not our fault they dont change their situation. and they arent assholes for being selfish?"

easier said than done. And how exactly again are they being selfish? It is their life, their body. Last I checked, people did not need permission to do things to their body. Also, loudryan, no matter how you word it, it will always end up as predestination.

Quote :

"2. Life sucks now but I know it will get better I choose to go with number 2. I say, I know it will get better, then I identify what is in my control to make things better. Then I work at it. I am not trying to look down upon someone who has tried/done it. I was raised in a good home and do not pretend to have gone through some of the hardships that many people have. I am just trying to give you my outlook on situations."

unless you've gotten to the verge of suicide, you cannot say what you would do.

[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 2:56 AM. Reason : .]

3/14/2006 2:55:37 AM

^ I don't believe in predestination, however, I do understand the concept and feel free to tell me if you think I'm wrong. Here is my loose definition of predestination:

In my opinion if you are predestined to die,meet your wife,or any other life event, on a certain day, then it will happen regardless of your actions. Basically, if an event in your life is predestined then it is out of your control. Suicide is completely within your control, you choose whether or not you are going to do it. So how can anyone be predestined to commit suicide?

I have not been on the verge of suicide and my heart goes out to people who are. I guess the overall point to all of my rambling is that your attitude towards life means a lot.

I am a firm believer that if you change your attitude about a particular situation, then you change the situation, at least from your standpoint. I do not believe I will ever be on the verge of suicide because it goes completely against the way I view things. I am an optimist, especially with regards to the future. The only difference between an optimist and a pessiment is the attitude the person has with respect to a difficult or trying situation.

Again, I am not trying to judge or offend people, I just have a hard time with the fact that there are apparently so many people out there that believe life is not worth living and feel that they have no options.

I do not believe that suicide :

Quote :

"is a beautiful thing and should be appreciated."

I believe that life is a beautiful thing that should be appreciated.

3/14/2006 3:34:34 AM

I'm going to have to sit with some others on this issue.

While I understand the selfish issue that many of you bring up, I have to note that sometimes it feels that in killing yourself, you're actually causing less harm than what you'd do if you continued living.

Long story made short, it's not always a selfish deal.

Things CAN get that bad. Others may not realize it.

Mike

3/14/2006 10:47:31 AM

Quote :

"I don't believe in predestination, however, I do understand the concept and feel free to tell me if you think I'm wrong. Here is my loose definition of predestination: In my opinion if you are predestined to die,meet your wife,or any other life event, on a certain day, then it will happen regardless of your actions. Basically, if an event in your life is predestined then it is out of your control. Suicide is completely within your control, you choose whether or not you are going to do it. So how can anyone be predestined to commit suicide? "

you are arguing predestination by saying what if the day after you die you were destined to meet the person who would save you from suicide. We can play the hypothetical game all we want, but in the end hypotheticals mean shit.

Quote :

" have not been on the verge of suicide and my heart goes out to people who are. I guess the overall point to all of my rambling is that your attitude towards life means a lot. "

I have a great attitude towards life. I just know that I will die when I'm 70. By that time I will have accomplished everything I needed to in life. Therefore living would be pointless.

Quote :

"I am a firm believer that if you change your attitude about a particular situation, then you change the situation, at least from your standpoint. I do not believe I will ever be on the verge of suicide because it goes completely against the way I view things. I am an optimist, especially with regards to the future. The only difference between an optimist and a pessiment is the attitude the person has with respect to a difficult or trying situation"

I'm broke. so I maybe if I think hard enough I will magically get 70bajillion dollars. Changing one's attitude isn't a magic cure all. It may work in theory, but so does cold fussion.

Quote :

"Again, I am not trying to judge or offend people, I just have a hard time with the fact that there are apparently so many people out there that believe life is not worth living and feel that they have no options."

I'm a firm believer that there is no point in living other than to say, "well I'm living," if your life is terrible. If you are in constant pain, mental distress and there is no cure, then why live a tortured life?

Quote :

"I believe that life is a beautiful thing that should be appreciated."

Life if overly appreciated.

3/14/2006 12:10:29 PM

[Devil's Advocate]


Isn't it SELFISH of you to say that someone is being selfish by killing themselves?

How about had someone attempted to be there for them or helped them they wouldn't have done what they did?

[/Devil's Advocate]

3/14/2006 8:18:15 PM

The three people I know that have either tried or considered suicide had, AT THE LEAST, me when it occurred, and two of them I know to have loving, supportive families. It's not the fault of the families and friends if the person refuses to open up, or remains reclusive, wallowing in self-pity, instead of letting someone in. Fortunately two of those people have recovered pretty well. The third still has problems with it, and I put a lot of effort in cheering/motivating/encouraging the person. It's a struggle, yes, but if that person ended up committing suicide after my being there for ---, it would be a very selfish act. Suicide defenders can't say it's not without knowing the details. Just take my word for it.

3/15/2006 10:47:50 AM

Quote :

"hell im a fairly happy guy with a beautiful loving girlfriend and a pretty damn good life and i think about suicide pretty often."

have you gone to get help? please, people, I just buried him yesterday. It is so so so so sad to see his baby, and his mother, and everyone else.

PLEASE, if you care about the people around you, and you're thinking about suicide and in a sane enough state of mind to consider them, PLEASE go get help. Don't make them go through what I and my family had to go through.

3/15/2006 11:03:55 AM

Quote :

"The three people I know that have either tried or considered suicide had, AT THE LEAST, me when it occurred, and two of them I know to have loving, supportive families."

Maybe it's you and their families that's been screwing them up, like with the kind of values that condemn people for being "selfish". (I know this is the internet and TWW and all, but I'm really not kidding.)

3/15/2006 11:18:18 AM

Quote :

"[Devil's Advocate] Isn't it SELFISH of you to say that someone is being selfish by killing themselves? How about had someone attempted to be there for them or helped them they wouldn't have done what they did? [/Devil's Advocate]"

welcome to 50 posts ago.

3/15/2006 11:42:01 AM

[quote]like with the kind of values that condemn people for being "selfish".[quote]perhaps you mean condemning suicide as selfish, which is debatable, but are you suggesting that condemning selfishness itself is bad? I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I can't imagine how it would be a good thing for people to think only of themselves

3/15/2006 11:43:39 AM

You should read some Adam Smith.

3/15/2006 11:58:11 AM

who, me? oh, I went to highschool, thanks. I don't think adam smith said everyone should be 100% selfish and everything would sort itself out, and if he did, I disagree.

3/15/2006 12:39:48 PM

Quote :

"are you suggesting that condemning selfishness itself is bad?"

Quote :

"I can't imagine how it would be a good thing for people to think only of themselves"

I'm saying the extent to which people think of themselves or others is their own business, and telling them otherwise only hurts them. (And I'm not a 100% egoist, if that's what you were asking.)

Also was going to add last time but had to go:

Quote :

"It's not the fault of the families and friends if the person refuses to open up, or remains reclusive, wallowing in self-pity, instead of letting someone in."

In the same line of thought as before, maybe the families and friends aren't the perfect support system they think they are. Maybe from the depressed person's perspective, you don't understand him/her and you're critical of his/her values, and that's why he/she doesn't open up to you.

3/15/2006 2:56:48 PM

Quote :

"Suicide defenders...without knowing the details"

Why the hell would someone trying to be supportive/encouraging to a family member or friend try to push values on that person, or be critical, judgemental, etc, if the point is to cheer the person up and show that person that you're there for him/her? Get off your high horse and stop assuming stuff you don't know.

3/16/2006 10:01:16 AM

Quote :

"I'm saying the extent to which people think of themselves or others is their own business, and telling them otherwise only hurts them."

your freedoms are yours to control, unless they infringe on the freedoms of another. Whether or not killing yourself and therefore destroying the lives of those who love you can be considered infringing on the freedoms of others is in a gray area. It definitely is NOT a situation that you can call either way instantly.

3/16/2006 12:16:16 PM

Quote :

"Why the hell would someone trying to be supportive/encouraging to a family member or friend try to push values on that person"

Because they think that's what they're supposed to do.

Quote :

"your freedoms are yours to control, unless they infringe on the freedoms of another."

I said nothing about actions. I only talked about thoughts.

Quote :

"Whether or not killing yourself and therefore destroying the lives of those who love you can be considered infringing on the freedoms of others is in a gray area. It definitely is NOT a situation that you can call either way instantly."

Yeah, it's pretty tough, but I'd say that each person owns his/her own life, and therefore gets to end it if he/she wants. Sorry about your situation though.

3/16/2006 1:10:13 PM

guy that lived in the basement apartment of the house i'm in tried to kill himself back in september/october.....cut his on throat and slit his wrists plus stabbed himself several times....didn't die, was found by a friend

found out this weekend he left a note for his parents and drove his cobra off an overlook on the parkway

3/16/2006 1:15:59 PM

That sucks man1

3/17/2006 6:25:40 AM

April 13 will be 3 years since one of my best friends killed herself. She was always one of the most giving, caring, selfless people I have ever known and continues to be to this day. She never had a harsh word to say about anyone and had so many loving people in her life that her funeral was standing room only. She was getting help and was on medicine, and had been for as long as I've known her.

There are a lot of you who are using rational reasons for what to do when you are on the verge of suicide. You are saying to just think about your family, go get help, stop being selfish. The thing that you don't realize is that depression is not a rational disease. There is no hope. When you are at the point where you want (or in their case feel that you need) to commit suicide, you cannot see that there might be a better future or that you have a loving family and wonderful friends who care about you. All you can see is how much you hate living. That is it. You can't just snap suicidal people out of it by making them smile or telling them rational reasons why they should love life enough to remain alive. They have been down those avenues, they have exhausted every possible resource that they can think of. Like someone else on this thread said, suicide is not a split second decision. It is something that a person struggles with for a very long time and it takes complete desperation and lack of hope to fulfill. Just keep that in mind.

I'm sorry for your loss DirtyGreek and the losses of all of the other people who have been affected by suicide, and I understand everything that you are going through. But please understand that these individuals, if they felt like there was any other way, they wouldn't have ended their life.

R.I.P. Lindsay Marie Williams. December 26, 1981 - April 13, 2003.

3/17/2006 9:48:48 AM

Suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and i can take on leaving
if i pleeeeeaaaaasssseeeeee.

3/17/2006 10:10:15 AM