^^The Green party may not win the major elections like governor etc, but the green party has won.

As of right now, I'm voting for the party. It comes down to Democrat and Green (I will not vote Repub since they do not share my values). Once the Democratic Party gets some sort of focus and platform, I will change my stance of not voting for them. But as of right now, I'm totally unenthused by any member of the Democratic party. Therefore they recieve none of my votes

2/7/2006 1:29:26 PM

Keating 5, anyone?

2/7/2006 1:43:13 PM

so

you openly admit that you don't even care who runs, as long as they have a (G) next to their name

2/7/2006 1:44:25 PM

^^^ An eighteen year old high school student won an election this last cycle but that doesn't mean that I'm going to take him seriously as a political force.

I think both McCain and Obama are just taking posturing and taking potshots at each other. I'm a bit suprised by McCain's reaction, but I don't think it's merely just a calculated attempt at character assassination; I think McCain really was a bit miffed by Obama's actions.

Considering how politically charged the current environment is, I'm pretty sure the reactions to his comments will once again fall along party lines. That is inevitable.

For those who say McCain is a broken has-been, I say that he's probably the Republican frontrunner for 2008... if he decides to take a stab at it.

2/7/2006 1:50:52 PM

Quote :

"Shake his career? This won't even make cable news."

Funny, b/c i heard about it watching CNN this morning while eating breakfast.

2/7/2006 1:55:12 PM

>.<

2/7/2006 2:09:15 PM

Quote :

"you openly admit that you don't even care who runs, as long as they have a (G) next to their name"

Greens are good about nominating candidates who stand up for the core principles of the Green Party. And I will not vote for a Democrat until the Democrats get their act together. the individual may be great, but in the end he is still apart of a party of no ideas, no direction, and lost. All of which will make the candidate lost. I'd rather vote for the Green party because they at least have a platform and stick by it.

2/7/2006 2:48:55 PM

well

thanks for helping start the reign of W

2/7/2006 2:56:32 PM

I didn't help in the least. When I lived in Pennsylvania, it went overwhelmingly Gore. therefore; voting for Nader didn't hurt.

In 2004, NC went overwhelmingly Bush, therefore, voting Nader didn't hurt (didn't like the Green Candidate that year).

[Edited on February 7, 2006 at 3:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2006 3:22:59 PM

whoah whoah whoah

you mean you looked at a candidate based on his personal merits and chose to break from your chosen party?

this is completely unheard of

2/7/2006 3:25:29 PM

Completely

2/7/2006 3:32:17 PM

im all for revoking curly j's voting privs.

2/7/2006 4:40:49 PM

I could have sworn the green party was one of the all time political jokes -- right up there with clinton and blowjobs, dan quayle and spelling, and bush and fiscal responsibility.

Silly me.

[Edited on February 7, 2006 at 7:35 PM. Reason : sdf]

2/7/2006 7:34:55 PM

i saw the irony

2/7/2006 7:46:14 PM

you thought THAT was ironic, ask him what his major is.

2/7/2006 8:16:24 PM

Voting for Greens (or Libertarians, or Socialist, or any 3rd party) at the national level is just fucking retarded. stay home on voting day because you might as well not vote. Our two-party system is defined in the framework of the Constitution. Like it or not, that's all you get.

If you want to make a difference in progressive politics, work to help change the Democratic Party. if you want to bring more libertarian policies, work on getting the Jesus-freaks and Bible thumpers out of teh Republican Party.

2/7/2006 10:09:23 PM

Quote :

"Our two-party system is defined in the framework of the Constitution."

Where? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately curious.

2/7/2006 10:23:35 PM

good question

2/7/2006 10:49:01 PM

Quote :

"I could have sworn the green party was one of the all time political jokes -- right up there with clinton and blowjobs, dan quayle and spelling, and bush and fiscal responsibility."

this is where you fail in reading comprehension. I called Barak Obama a joke. Furthermore, you should at least know something about the green party before you carte blanche call it a joke. You'd be surprised about it and it's rapid growth.

And no, you still don't understand the concept of irony.

2/7/2006 11:54:56 PM

^^ , ^^^ what i mean, is the voting process as defined in the constitution guarantees a two party system by its "nature", not that the constitution explicitly says "thou shalt have only two parties".

but i am somewhat mistaken... what i was thinking of is in actually only specified in the 12th Amendment, and through that precedent used in later US Code (ie the Voting Act of 1970, et al), it's not actually in the framework of the Consitition proper.

Amendment XII: The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President...

this system, which has been pretty much in effect nationally, since the early 19th century, is called Plurality Voting, or "First to the Post", and is mathematically shown (by Duverger's Law) to force a system with only two political parties. On the other hand, the most common voting method in the world, "Proportional Representation", all but guarantees the survival of multiple political parties.

theres a lot of information about Duverger's Law and various voting methods. heres one of many:

http://math.temple.edu/~wds/crv/Duverger.html



[Edited on February 8, 2006 at 12:15 AM. Reason : ~ broke link]

2/8/2006 12:08:25 AM

"Neither Bush or Kerry have gotten a flu shot and both said today they won't get one. Ralph Nader also said he wasn't getting a flu shot. Though in his case he doesn't need one because he doesn't come in contact with any large crowds." --Jay Leno

"Ralph Nader's latest complaint - he says he's being held back by special interest groups working against him. I think they're called the American people." --Jay Leno

^^ the consensus is clear, loser.

Enjoy

"As you know, we've been having some wild weather, and that could affect the vote on election day. For example: if there's a hurricane in Texas, Kerry could win. If there's a rainstorm in Massachusetts, Bush could win. And if it snows in hell, Ralph Nader will win." —Jay Leno

"Presidential candidate Ralph Nadar picked Peter Camejo to be his running mate in the presidential election. Experts say by picking Peter Camejo, Nader is guaranteed to win the vote of Peter Camejo" —Conan O'Brien

"Presidential candidate Ralph Nader has finally picked a running mate. He picked a man by the name of Peter Camejo from the Green party, and this guy has all the qualifications Ralph Nader was looking for in a candidate. He said yes. ...They plan to be the candidates against special interests and apparently it's working for them because no one has any special interest in them." —Jay Leno

"Ralph Nader choose the man with whom to share the responsibility of running a distant third, California activist Peter Camejo. You may remember that Camejo ran for president in 1976 on the Socialist Workers Party ticket. Actually, you might only remember that if you run a lesbian, vegetarian, bookstore." —Jon Stewart

"Ralph Nader announced his running mate for the upcoming presidential election. ... The guy's name is Peter Camejo – an investment advisor from here in California . He ran for Governor in the recall election and finished just below Gary Coleman, but 200 votes ahead of Gallagher — so that's a strong addition to the team. Nader says the election is theirs to lose, and that's their plan." —Jimmy Kimmel

"Nader says he chose Camejo because he has experience, wisdom, plus his parents have a garage where they can practice." —Craig Kilborn

"John Kerry raised all of that money and bought himself an airplane, campaign plane, for $10 million. Ralph Nader, not to be outdone, is having himself shipped across the country in a crate." —David Letterman

"John Kerry and Ralph Nader met face-to-face, it was a historic meeting. Astronomers said today their meeting actually created what is called a 'charisma black hole.'" —Jay Leno

"Earlier today, John Kerry had a meeting with independent candidate Ralph Nader. Afterwards, Kerry said 'The meeting didn't go as well as I had hoped, because my gun jammed.'" —Conan O'Brien

"You ever take a good look at Ralph Nader? Don't you think he looks like Kerry if you left him in the dryer for couple of days?" —Jay Leno

"Ralph Nader has called for President Bush to be impeached for deceiving the American people about the war in Iraq. Ralph Nader wants Bush impeached? Hey Ralph Nader got him elected in the first place. If it wasn't for Ralph Nader we wouldn't have this problem!" —Jay Leno

"Consumer activist Ralph Nader announced he would run for president. When he heard about it, Dennis Kucinich was furious and said, 'He's going to steal my voter away.'" —Conan O'Brien

"Ralph Nader announced he's running for president after a new poll found he'd get .5% of the vote. Nader's slogan: 'Eat my dust Kucinich.'" —Craig Kilborn

"You know your candidacy is marginal when the Green Party thinks you're too out there." —Jon Stewart, on Ralph Nader's decision to run for president as an independent

"'Conservatives for Nader.' Not a large group. About the same size as 'Retarded Death Row Texans for Bush.'" —Jon Stewart, on Nader's claim that conservatives who are furious with Bush will back his candidacy
"On tomorrow's 'Meet the Press' Green Party leader Ralph Nader will announce whether he will sit out the 2004 election or enter the race and cause George Bush to win by three votes. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say stay home Nerd, you're the reason we're in this K hole to begin with." —Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update"

"Ralph Nader says he is testing the water and hasn't decided on whether he'll run for president in 2004. Actually, he doesn't really need to run because I think the Democrats feel they can lose without him this time." —Jay Leno

"Apparently Ralph Nader has a new slogan — 'You won't ever have to worry about me getting laid in the Oval Office.'" —Craig Kilborn

"Ralph Nader is so serious running for president this time, he's actually thinking about pressing his suit." —Jay Leno

"Nader says he is launching a campaign based on the Internet. Well, that certainly worked out well for Howard Dean, didn't it?" —Jay Leno

"A big weekend for the candidates. President Bush highlighted his foreign policy, and then John Kerry emphasized his war record, and then Ralph Nader bragged about an article he wrote on toasters that explode." —Craig Kilborn

2/8/2006 12:11:38 AM

Do you realize that comedians joke about everyone? I can pull just as many jokes about dems or republicans.

2/8/2006 12:13:16 AM

awww, crying because your wittle gween party is not taken seriously?

2/8/2006 12:16:56 AM

yeah, late night comedians prove you wrong.

no, but seriously, our voting laws are such that 3rd Parties are GUARANTEED to fail.. Its mathematically proven. Duverger's Law. check out the link i posted above.

2/8/2006 12:17:31 AM

i like a lot of the green platform. im looking forward to the dems getting some balls on some of those issues, because greens will never be elected anywhere outside of city or county governments.



[Edited on February 8, 2006 at 12:25 AM. Reason : censored. ]

2/8/2006 12:18:03 AM

I think that arguing against the two party system is both novel and insightful!!!!

2/8/2006 12:20:37 AM

^^It's an issue of getting the third party to such a level as to replace one of the traditional parties. if you remember the Republicans started out as a third party

2/8/2006 12:22:03 AM

actually if voting laws could be changed, we could easily move into a multi party system.

what i said earlier, about the constitutional framework, was incorrect. plurality voting, which guarantees a two-party system, is actually only based on precedent from the 12th amendment.

it could be changed.

2/8/2006 12:23:13 AM

Quote :

"if you remember"

well, it was a long time ago.

Quote :

"the Republicans started out as a third party"

oh yeah, but that was precipitated by the confilict Slavery, Emancipation, and a national Civil War. the Whigs tried to play both sides of the fence and lost. Thats kind of like an exception to the norm, i think.

ifespan of a 3rd party is shown to be 1-16 years before they completely die out. the libertarians are a noteworthy exception, however they have never enjoyed the popular vote that other 3rd parties have received at their peaks (socialists, progressives, et. al.)

2/8/2006 12:31:07 AM

still my original point is, if you vote for 3rd party candidates at the national level, youre tossign your vote in the trash.

youve basically got two choises

(1) you can help work on the party from within to incorporate policies in the platform. In washington state, we have primary caucuses. My district, we contributed some planks to the national platform. and they werent ever incorporated. mind you, i live in one of the most liberal districts in the city of seattle. i could have gone to the state level as an elector, but i was too busy. you can get involved, its a lot of work with little reward.

(2) you can work towards changing voting laws, with the goal of proportional represenation, or range voting, that will allow third parties to win more seats in congress. this is theoretically possible, but i reckon is gonna be really tough to sell.

2/8/2006 12:42:27 AM

as long as someone votes, they're not throwing anything away. it might be more strategic to vote this way or that way, but then again, that depends on your strategy.

for example, I oppose the corrupt two-party system. Therefore it would be more of a waste for me to vote rep/dem than to vote for a third party candidate.

I'm not under the illusion that the third party will win, but I do hope that my vote will contribute to that mandatory 10-15% that is required for future public funding and ballot access.

2/8/2006 1:47:39 AM

^^lincoln was a repub. his election caused the civil war. so to say the civil war was the reason why repubs won is laughable.

2/8/2006 1:52:33 AM

10-15 %

heh.

Ross Perot got something new in the works?

2/8/2006 1:53:55 AM

Quote :

"lincoln was a repub. his election caused the civil war"

jesus, dude. black-and-white much? i'm glad you can take an immensely complex historical event down to a level you can understand.

every time i hear statements like that, its from someone who still calls it "the war of northern aggression".

Quote :

"so to say the civil war was the reason why repubs won is laughable."

hey laughingboy, i said the civil war was ONE of the REASONS why the WHIGS LOST. you cant play both sides of a polarizing issue like slavery, emancipation, and civil war, and expect to have ANYONE like you after that. im not making shit up here, this is widely understood by political historians. read much? y'oughtta.
.

2/8/2006 2:00:32 AM

You cannot say the civil war was the reason why the whigs lost considering that the whigs became the repubs. preceding lincolns election. And yes, Lincoln's election was the final cause for the civil war. Shit, they didn't even wait for him to be sworn in before they attempted secession.

Admit it, you are wrong and I am right

2/8/2006 2:02:57 AM

the whigs became the republicans?

how utterly simplistic and naive. get your political history from coffee table books?

2/8/2006 2:09:40 AM

you keep reverting back to the whole, "simplistic and naïve" line. Jesus Christ dude, calm down. Do you want my seminar thesis I wrote on the civil war and the causes and effects posted? I highly doubt the Soap Box readers would approve of over 25 pages of pure dry academic research.

2/8/2006 2:11:02 AM

i like dry.

post me a link.

2/8/2006 2:15:08 AM

Do you honestly think my paper is on the internet?

2/8/2006 2:18:21 AM

Quote :

"Do you realize that comedians joke about everyone?"

Indeed.

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Ghandi

Only one more stage to go!

2/8/2006 2:23:39 AM

^^ ill agree with you on one point: the soap box is not prepared to handle any sort of meaningful debate on a topic that scholars spend entire careers researching.

therefore i was not, and am not, trying to start a debate on the causes of the civil war. yes, succession happened after lincolns election, but for you to say one caused the other is post hoc ergo propter hoc, and doesnt even consider the complex politics of the preceding 20 years. and you cant say that the Whigs became the Republicans any more than you can say the Federalists became the Democrats. even less so, because for one thing the Whigs and the Republicans existed at the same time.

but im not going there any more.

3rd party voting as a form of political dissent, at the US federal level, is a waste. go walk around with a sign saying "Bush and Kerry R teh Evil"... youll have more effect.



[Edited on February 8, 2006 at 2:25 AM. Reason : 2^'s]

2/8/2006 2:24:57 AM

Quote :

"Do you honestly think my paper is on the internet?"

no but i honestly think you are tech enough to have access web or ftp server where you could put it for a limited time.

if not, i'll give you my email.

2/8/2006 2:28:12 AM

I'm a paranoid individual. I don't give out shit I've written.

2/8/2006 2:29:32 AM

A true history major.

^^

Quote :

"joe_schmoe All American 1596 Posts user info edit post"

2/8/2006 2:31:23 AM

leave us history majors alone.

2/8/2006 2:37:58 AM

No problem with the history majors. I've just noticed you cats are generally tight-fisted with your research (even when your friends are incredibly interested in reading the results) and usually paranoid.

2/8/2006 2:40:20 AM

who you callin friend?

2/8/2006 2:43:38 AM

Sayer, actually.

2/8/2006 2:57:21 AM