That would work, too.

11/18/2005 8:02:00 PM

God damn this kind of shit pisses me off. Our country is collectively fucked.


I was actually thinking today about how long till the ol' US goes down in flames. 100 years? 200? 50? I'm as much of an American homer as there is but EVERY huge country/empire/state eventually goes to the shitter.

11/18/2005 8:03:24 PM

Quote :

"No, their problem has been that they have let the Republicans shape the debate for too long. And now you suggest that they continue to do so, and call it a strategic initiative"

pwnt

11/18/2005 8:06:11 PM

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html

Quote :

"My plan calls: - To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. - To create a quick reaction force in the region. - To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines. - To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq "

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 8:21 PM. Reason : ...]

11/18/2005 8:20:46 PM

cspan is funny right now

11/18/2005 8:26:51 PM

No shit. Who is this dumbass bitch?

She's terrified that Iraq might become the center of terrorist activities if we leave now. Somebody should really tell her what's going on there now...

11/18/2005 8:30:01 PM

I'm streaming the audio.

11/18/2005 8:30:20 PM

Quote :

"God damn this kind of shit pisses me off."

11/18/2005 8:33:19 PM

gamecat posted it while I was spacing out on a reply.

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 8:36 PM. Reason : ]

11/18/2005 8:34:28 PM

That link looks familiar.

11/18/2005 8:34:50 PM

Yes. I thought it bore repeating. sorry.

11/18/2005 8:35:37 PM

haha he cut and paste in the same thread

11/18/2005 8:37:09 PM

oh shit
mr freedom fries is on

11/18/2005 8:48:40 PM

ahahahahahah

the dems just gave jones a fucking standing o

11/18/2005 8:51:05 PM

KY congressman just blamed Clinton for 9-11.

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 8:56 PM. Reason : for]

11/18/2005 8:56:29 PM

the speaker sounds like ben stein.

11/18/2005 8:58:59 PM

Quote :

"Murtha's position is to pull out as soon as is practicable, not as soon as humanly possible. This not only isn't "close enough" to what he propsed, it's not even in the same area code."

Well, the Republicans' stance all along has been that the Iraq war should end as soon as practicable, and their stance has also been that "practicable" means a long time.

The Republicans have not said, to my knowledge in any public statement, "let's continue this war in perpetuity because war is so great and we love it." What they've been saying all along is "it's not practicable to put a timeline or a specific date down on paper for when we can end the war, because of its nature."

So quite obviously the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on this issue boils down to one of timeline. Otherwise it was pointless, stupid, and redundant for Murtha to have made the statement he did. If timeline weren't the point of conflict between the parties, then they were otherwise in total agreement.

And if the difference is timeline, then what timeline is more practicable than the one the administration has proposed? As far as I can tell, the definition of practicable seems to hinge on a few basic factors:

* willingness to let Iraq go to shit, and
* ability to move troops out

I would assume that for both Democrats and Republicans that the latter is pretty much constant. Troops can move at the rate they can move; I doubt Murtha suggested that the troops have any transporter machines.

So then, if the difference in what's "practicable" hinges on timeline, it must hinge on a willingness to let Iraq go to shit.

Does anyone here doubt that quelling this insurgency is going to take an indeterminably long time?

Then obviously, immediately is as good as any time to the Democrats, since if you're willing to take a timeline--as a top priority--over Iraq's stability, then what's the difference?

I am not making any kind of "with us or against us" statement. I am talking about pure logic. Either the war is going to be fought until Iraq is stable -- which will take an unknown amount of time -- or we are going to set a timeline which is not based on Iraq's stability. We cannot set a timeline based on an unknown amount of time, can we?

11/18/2005 9:02:13 PM

Quote :

"the Republicans' stance all along has been that the Iraq war should end as soon as practicable"

got any proof?

11/18/2005 9:06:45 PM

to louie

11/18/2005 9:09:21 PM

i love when congressmen rock the blue-blazer-and-khakis look on the floor

11/18/2005 9:12:12 PM

^^

You're asking me if I have any proof that the Republicans think the war should end when it is practicable to do so?

Uh ... gee, that's hard.

Most recently President Bush says:

Quote :

""So we will fight the terrorists in Iraq and we will stay in the fight until we have achieved the victory our brave troops have fought and bled for""

Given some basic tenets, such as:

* the point of fighting a war is to win it

It seems pretty reasonable for the President to suggest that we should fight the war until we have attained "victory." That doesn't sound like a call to impracticability to me.

Again, the issue here rather hinges on your definition of "practicable," and perhaps more so, "victory." And if your notion of "victory" does not include the ultimate end of the insurgency, why not just call to pull out immediately?

11/18/2005 9:13:55 PM

wow i like her

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 9:17 PM. Reason : pelosi]

11/18/2005 9:16:49 PM

this c-span cunt just said this "mirrors" the murtha statement

11/18/2005 9:22:42 PM

what if victory is impractical?

11/18/2005 9:23:31 PM

and i fo'got that tom osborne is a congressman now

11/18/2005 9:24:26 PM

WHY ARE SO MANY REPUBLICANS VOTING IN FAVOR OF THIS RESOLUTION!?!?!?

I'm confused as fuck right now.

11/18/2005 9:28:24 PM

^I WAS ABOUT TO ASK THAT

11/18/2005 9:29:17 PM

the yea's are only losing by 18 votes????

11/18/2005 9:30:46 PM

this is a vote on whether or not to debate the actual bill`, if this passes, THEN there's an hour debate, then they vote on the bill

i was confused as hell at first too

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 9:34 PM. Reason : n]

11/18/2005 9:33:32 PM

this isn't the vote on the bill, this is to vote to allow discussion on the bill, then to vote on the bill.

11/18/2005 9:34:03 PM

omg cary
nc represent

11/18/2005 9:34:14 PM

Ok. The world makes sense again.

11/18/2005 9:34:21 PM

yeah, thats what happens when you come into the debate late

and walk out at the beginning of the vote to flip the chicken on the grill

11/18/2005 9:36:44 PM

so they just had a one hr debate on whether or not to have a one hr depate?

11/18/2005 9:36:51 PM

God Bless Beuracracy

and this guy just talked about overtime....wtf

11/18/2005 9:39:10 PM

i wanna punch this Yuma woman in the gut

11/18/2005 9:41:29 PM

so what happens if this vote remains 203-203?

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 9:46 PM. Reason : oh shit, vote switch time!]

11/18/2005 9:45:22 PM

the fucking streaming thing won't stop being fuzzy so i can read the vote totals

damn you lack of cable

11/18/2005 9:49:34 PM

I thought they were voting to continue debate on the resolution.

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 9:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2005 9:50:40 PM

and debate carries on

[Edited on November 18, 2005 at 9:52 PM. Reason : oh boy]

11/18/2005 9:51:17 PM

the repubs just finally called the dems bluff

they are gonna buck now

11/18/2005 9:58:52 PM

henry hyde just used the term "freedom fighters"

11/18/2005 9:59:15 PM

which part of the debate continues? the part where they are authorized to continue to debate, or the actual bill. or are they still debating on the debating bill? if someone could keep us updated i would appreciate it. thanks

11/18/2005 9:59:45 PM

Didn't someone move to give 5 legislative days to work on comments

the gentleman from georgia?

11/18/2005 10:01:25 PM

I don't get the ultimate point of them doing this

11/18/2005 10:04:18 PM

This Reps straight representin'

So I just started watching. What's the executive summary? Who's winning?

11/18/2005 10:06:20 PM

Quote :

"I don't get the ultimate point of them doing this"

The Republicans are playing politics.

11/18/2005 10:07:16 PM

i like murtha a lot now

is he too old to be someones VP?

11/18/2005 10:08:47 PM

Murtha Obama!

From what I'm seeing, it's a Democratic love fest.

Backfired?

11/18/2005 10:09:52 PM

heh

55% is still a higher approval than the president has

11/18/2005 10:11:23 PM