They need to make an official version, but not call it a Contract with America

11/9/2005 2:14:34 PM

Or even "New Covenant with America". It sounds too much like the original Republican Contract with America. How about something like the "American Promise" or "Renewing the Dream".

11/9/2005 2:19:43 PM

Quote :

"This reminds me of arguments made in the late 1800s. Imagine, if everyone gets a 4 horse carriage, how much HORSE SHIT (literally!) will be piling up on the streets. We're doomed!!1 I generally love how peopl pretend they have the slightest clue as to what the technology will be 50 years from now. Because 50 years ago everybody knew what today would look like."

right on! We humans are hysterical beings bent discovering the unknown and when we cant' discover that, we scream, cry, yell, and preach doom.

11/9/2005 2:19:46 PM

Ha. #10) and the article is "The New Covenant with America". Not 100% reserved for religious use but it conjures up those thoughts.

If they did tax oil to make it uber-expensive in an attempt to try to lower consumption/change lifestyles then that would be in direct conflict with #6. The middle class are the people that are suffering the most right now. Nevermind the fact that purposely tripling the price of gas would all but guarantee that you will not be a good candidate for reelection.

1) Duh.
2) I tend to agree. I will say that if they take away too much corporate welfare then the corporations may decide to outsource some of their labor. That coupled with the free trade zones could spell trouble. A complicated balance is needed - and that is putting it lightly.
3) Yeah. We need to come home. We need to purify the inner vessel before trying to set the world straight.
4) This should be another no duh.
5) Sounds good. The bit that scares me is the "America will utilize 20-percent less fuel than today." What does that mean? 20% less oil. 20% less anything? If they are refering to oil, then yeah.
6) This is where the focus from both parties needs to be. Gas prices, health insurance, inflation. All chipping away at the middle class. At this rate I often wonder just how much longer the middle class will last.
7) Well I'm all for it, but that is easy to say considering I will never see 300k/year.
8) Something needs to be done about double digit percentage cost increases for several years, I'm just not sure what. I don't even pretend to know the answer to that one.
9) Wow. I don't know the ramifications of that. I have a feeling that it would translate to a loss in value of a college degree. The old market may have required a 4 year degree for a decent job but the new will require a masters. We are probably headed down that path anyway.
10) I'm sick of hearing church v. state at this point. People use this to attack religious freedom instead of protect it. That said there are too many groups trying to interject religion into everyhing and are just trying to stir up trouble IMO.

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 2:48 PM. Reason : -]

11/9/2005 2:27:15 PM

Quote :

"I generally love how peopl pretend they have the slightest clue as to what the technology will be 50 years from now. Because 50 years ago everybody knew what today would look like."

I'm not trying to predict how technology will change, I'm just saying that I don't want to roll the dice and assume that new miracle technology is going to replace the internal combustion engine in time to prevent an economic crisis.

Quote :

"^^ you talk in a way as if to assume that one day: lots and lots of oil then the DAY AFTER TOMORROW: bam. no oil. It won't be like that."

I only have to go to the beginning of September to show you from firsthand experience exactly how much "like that" it can be.

Quote :

"It is arguable that because of the New Deal, the depression lasted much longer than it had to."

"Arguable" is the key word there.

And I'm not talking about keeping the depression as short as possible, I'm talking about preventing it altogether.

11/9/2005 3:01:05 PM

Quote :

"I'm not trying to predict how technology will change, I'm just saying that I don't want to roll the dice and assume that new miracle technology is going to replace the internal combustion engine in time to prevent an economic crisis."

Because you really have a viable alternative.

11/9/2005 3:33:35 PM

Quote :

"I only have to go to the beginning of September to show you from firsthand experience exactly how much "like that" it can be."

That had nothing at all to do with a shortage in supply of crude oil. It had to do with the refining process and some refineries that were shut down. Nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with us not having oil in the ground.

Quote :

"And I'm not talking about keeping the depression as short as possible, I'm talking about preventing it altogether."

You're not going to prevent cyclical shifts in the economy! Read an econ book! What you can do is keep from extending those cyclical depressions! That's what FDR did wrong. Hoover was just fucked that his time came when he was president, and thus, blamed for the depression.

11/9/2005 3:37:28 PM

And there's abosolutely nothing government can do to make depressions and the hardships they cause less severe, either.

No sir.

11/9/2005 3:40:32 PM

Didn't say nothing. See how extreme you are? It's all or nothing and I never said either.

Ex: great depression

A big problem was that people were buying stocks on credit (now illegal and was made illegal shortly after the depression). That is one thing the government can do to keep an economy from crippling. What we shouldn't do is burn crops to make the price of wheat go up so farmers can get paid while people literally starve on the streets (new deal), massive new gov't spending plans (new deal), printing money out the woo wa (new deal), stacking the courts so you can get your stuff made legal (new deal).

That's what government shouldnt' do.

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2005 3:44:32 PM

Should I even go into the Phillip's curve with you people?

11/9/2005 3:45:40 PM

Quote :

" A big problem was that people were buying stocks on credit (now illegal and was made illegal shortly after the depression). That is one thing the government can do to keep an economy from crippling. What we shouldn't do is burn crops to make the price of wheat go up so farmers can get paid while people literally starve on the streets (new deal), massive new gov't spending plans (new deal), printing money out the woo wa (new deal), stacking the courts so you can get your stuff made legal (new deal)."

FDR's New Deal was an unmitigated success and saved lives.

11/9/2005 4:34:37 PM

nope...it was a terrible thing and is the cause of many social problems of today

11/9/2005 4:38:33 PM

and many more lost lives. Do you realize that under the new deal, they were burning crops while people starved to death?

And it is the cause of many of our social problems today (especially social spending). However, I don't fault FDR entirely for that. He had envisioned the New Deal expiring. Of course, once gov. grows, it is next to impossible to reverse that. I blame Lyndon Johnson and his New Deal II a.k.a. The Great Society for many of our social spending problems.

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2005 4:53:40 PM

Quote :

"nope...it was a terrible thing and is the cause of many social problems of today"

Nope...it was a wonderful thing and is the salvation of many social ills of today.

11/9/2005 6:05:04 PM

ummm.....

Quote :

""nope...it was a terrible thing and is the cause of many social problems of today""

11/9/2005 6:17:30 PM

-libby is a pedophile
-no WMB
-lyne cheney is a pervert
-dick cheney loves turture
-libby and rove committed treason
-fema lets people suffer
-troop deaths hit 2k
-crony harriet mies fiasco
-cheney lies about iraq (again)
-the deficit soars
-the investigation by fitzgerald still goes on
-....i could go on....

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 6:53 PM. Reason : -]

11/9/2005 6:52:29 PM

Quote :

"And it is the cause of many of our social problems today (especially social spending). However, I don't fault FDR entirely for that. He had envisioned the New Deal expiring. Of course, once gov. grows, it is next to impossible to reverse that. I blame Lyndon Johnson and his New Deal II a.k.a. The Great Society for many of our social spending problems."

yeah, i think the same thing. i'm cool with FDR. I view LBJ, however, as quite possibly THE worst President in American history.


i looked at that list...had my hopes up as i read the first few...then was abruptly reminded that "Hey, dumbass, this list did, after all, come from the Democratic Party...of Dumbass Socialists."

11/9/2005 7:02:26 PM

Quote :

"Nope...it was a wonderful thing and is the salvation of many social ills of today."

Our own people starved to death while the government burned crops. It certainly was a wonderful thing. Your ancestors weren't affected.

LBJ was perhaps as close as we'll get to Communism without changing our red, white, and blue flag completely red with a hammer and sickle.

11/9/2005 7:17:42 PM

Quote :

"What we shouldn't do is burn crops to make the price of wheat go up so farmers can get paid while people literally starve on the streets (new deal), massive new gov't spending plans (new deal), printing money out the woo wa (new deal)"

I love how some people pretend that economists knew what the hell was causing the Great Depression as it was happening.

The American people demanded action, and popular economic theory supported an expansion of governmental power.

BUT LIEK OMG NOT EVERY PROGRAM WORKED

Quote :

"LBJ was perhaps as close as we'll get to Communism without changing our red, white, and blue flag completely red with a hammer and sickle."

And you accused me of being extreme.



[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 7:28 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2005 7:26:31 PM

out of curisosity, have you read about the Great Society?

11/9/2005 7:38:45 PM

Why would I have?

It's not like I'm a history major or anything like that.

11/9/2005 7:41:04 PM

I forgot that along with my computer science major I had telekinetic powers that could read the minds and tell exactly when and where you studied the Great Society.

11/9/2005 7:41:38 PM

That's odd, I didn't have to check your profile to guess your major.

11/9/2005 7:43:12 PM

insanely odd. I just don't care enough about you to take the extra click. My question towards you was more of a condescending message. It's obvious that the details of the Great Society escape you.

11/9/2005 7:44:42 PM

I confess.

I am indeed failing to see the Great Society/Communism link.

Please elaborate.

11/9/2005 7:49:01 PM

It is funny that the democrats having a set of ideas to rally behind is news. Wow, what momentum Really these are all old ideas, give people stuff so they'll like the government and keep your party in power, yawn. ... basically little changes and the evil rich people are punished, woo-hoo the politics of envy that's gotta be a healthy ideal to base your party on.

It seems that the conservatives are actually progressive nowadays, we'd like to see the government radically overhauled. So we are the progressives. To bad Bush isn't more fiscally conservative...

11/10/2005 1:43:33 AM

Quote :

"ohnson's landslide re-election victory over Republican opponent Barry Goldwater in 1964 added to the momentum of Great Society reforms. Over the next four years, Johnson enacted a flurry of legislation. One of the most ambitious efforts was the establishment of Medicare to provide health care for America's senior citizens. In 1964, 44 percent of seniors had no health care coverage, and with the medical bills that come with older age, this propelled many seniors into poverty. In fact, more than one in three Americans over 65 were living below the poverty line -- more than double the rate of those under 65. Medicare was an important and big change in American health care -- it was called the "biggest management job since the invasion of Normandy" -- and it was up to John Gardner to make it work. He helped shepherd Medicare to reality, and the results have been extraordinary: virtually all seniors now have health care, and the poverty rate for the elderly has fallen to approximately one in ten -- a rate lower than that of the general population. Along with Medicare, the Johnson Administration established the Medicaid program to provide health care to the poor. Education reform was also an important part of Johnson's Great Society, and a particular passion of Gardner's. In 1964, 8 million American adults had not finished 5 years in school; more than 20 million had not finished eight years; and almost a quarter of the nation's population, around 54 million people, hadn't finished high school. In 1965, Congress passed the groundbreaking Elementary and Secondary Education Act which for the first time provided federal funding for education below the college level passed the Higher Education Act, which created a National Teachers Corps and provided financial assistance to students wishing to attend college. Urban renewal and conservation was the third major component of the Great Society. Ever since the end of World War II, cities faced a shortage of good, affordable housing, At the same time, the suburbanization of America along with the changing economy meant that many businesses began to leave city centers, an exodus that was accelerated by urban rioting that began in earnest after the Watts riot in 1965 in Los Angeles, and continued throughout Johnson's term. As part of a response, Johnson signed the Housing and Urban Development Act of 1965 that established the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) and expanded funding for public housing. In addition, he provided aid to cities to rebuild blighted areas. "

http://www.pbs.org/johngardner/chapters/4c.html

11/10/2005 7:20:26 AM

I have a question about this:

Quote :

"A big problem was that people were buying stocks on credit (now illegal and was made illegal shortly after the depression). That is one thing the government can do to keep an economy from crippling."

How do they enforce that? Seriously. It would seem that the obvious work around would be to buy stocks with your entire paycheck and then pay the mortgage/bills/etc. with credit. You could even get a cash advance, loan, whatever and use the money to buy stocks.

[Edited on November 10, 2005 at 7:36 AM. Reason : -]

11/10/2005 7:36:19 AM

At least we can continue to sell short.

11/10/2005 8:34:59 AM

^^ That's not a problem. Buying stocks on credit gave them no "real" value. So if you have all this stock on credit, the market crashes, that leaves a pretty poor situation.

You can also spin the Great Society to any way you want. Of course, if you view communism in a positive light, I'm sure insuring everyone, educating everyone, giving everyone government benefits is a great thing. Me, I'm on the opposite specturm. I stress personal responsibility. Do for yourself and don't expect your neighbor to do for you. For those individuals who bust their ass working 50 hours a week at McDonalds and can't put food on the table for their kids, we have a responsibility to help those. But the social programs started under LBJ's administration is about as close to communism as America has ever gotten.

11/10/2005 9:01:42 AM

Quote :

"You can also spin the Great Society to any way you want. Of course, if you view communism in a positive light, I'm sure insuring everyone, educating everyone, giving everyone government benefits is a great thing."

First off, that is hyperbole.

Secondly, HOW THE HELL IS EVEN YOUR EXAGGERATED SCENARIO COMMUNISM?

11/10/2005 2:48:03 PM

Quote :

" Because you really have a viable alternative."

You all are confident that everyone and his brother is working hard to come up with alternative energy sources because it would earn $texas. That's probably true. But I see no problem in trying to give them as much time as possible to come up with their miracle toy. In fact, I think that to do anything else would be inexcusable.

Quote :

"That had nothing at all to do with a shortage in supply of crude oil."

No shit. But it shows you how one event can radically impact the whole system. What happens if a few years down the line, when we still have enough oil to get by, but not by much, there's some massive disaster in the Middle East? Or a coup of the Saudi Government by people who would rather screw us than make money? Or a war? Or any number of other things we can't predict?

Quote :

"You're not going to prevent cyclical shifts in the economy!"

Running out of the overwhelmingly most important fuel on the planet without a backup is not a cyclical shift in the economy.

11/10/2005 6:50:23 PM