The New Deal had little economic impact but it did give people hope.

10/22/2005 5:14:19 PM

discredited? by some, yes. but on the broad scale, no. thats about as widely accepted as intelligent design.

people gained employment when they otherwise would not have. i gues you would prefer that jp morgan and his cronies take over and assure that they make a buck while the rest of the nation stayed in the crapper?

[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 5:42 PM. Reason : .]

10/22/2005 5:42:08 PM

Quote :

"And you must wonder why John Maynard Keynes and FDR have both been discredited. "

Discredited by whom? I know people like you who disagree with him say he's wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that their ideas shaped, and continue to shape the worldwide economy.

Quote :

"As individuals become wealthy they become more capable of defending their own liberty against that of the Democratic State."

I will always value democracy. We have gotten a lot farther by using a system that focuses on the needs of the majority.

Quote :

"You must decide if you believe individuals should be free or if the government should be free."

I'd always rather have the government telling me what to do rather than an individual or a business, at least I can vote for the government.

Quote :

"A functioning military takes a specific amount of troops, I could buy that. Since wages in America are several times that of Cuba it would make sense that we spend several times more on defense than Cuba. But to argue that as wages increase military spending should remain the same sounds silly."

Funding the military take a lot more than just wages.

Quote :

"The New Deal had little economic impact but it did give people hope."

It was one of the greatest steps forward in economic history. It's success proves keynes right, as well as other things.

10/22/2005 8:20:46 PM

You can't argue that nor can anyone else. Economic recovery did not fully occur till WWII.

10/23/2005 4:38:29 AM

Of course we must ignore what started the great depression... blah blah blah
etc. etc. etc.
Communist...
Capitalist...
Keynes...
Hayek...

Quote :

"I'd always rather have the government telling me what to do rather than an individual or a business, at least I can vote for the government."

I'd always rather have the individual or a business telling me what to do rather than the government, at least I can tell them to "FUCK OFF!" without winding up in jail.

If Food Lion tells me to do something and I don't do it, that's their problem. If the state of North Carolina tells me to do something and I don't do it, that's my problem.

10/23/2005 8:56:09 AM

If you don't already understand why communism is a terrible governmental system then you're not going to learn much from this thread.

10/23/2005 11:50:55 AM

Quote :

"I'd always rather have the individual or a business telling me what to do rather than the government, at least I can tell them to "FUCK OFF!" without winding up in jail."

And you'll starve to death, what a wonderful option. The facism FDR is refering to is monopoly.

10/23/2005 12:49:27 PM

ah yes, the classic loneshark ideal.

replace government with corporations

nothing bad will ever happen then

10/23/2005 1:02:46 PM

I don't care what we do as long as it doesn't cripple what's left of our innovation.

10/23/2005 1:34:13 PM

communism doesn't cripple innovation

10/23/2005 1:59:55 PM

the russians only beat us to space, for god's sake.

10/23/2005 2:02:56 PM

Quote :

"And you'll starve to death, what a wonderful option."

Because obviously Food Lion is the only place in North America to get food.

As for nutsmackr, when did I say anything remotely similar to that? What is it called when someone does what you just did? It's one of those logical falacies...

Quote :

"the russians only beat us to space, for god's sake."

True, they may develop technology, but their dispersal of technology left much to be desired.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 2:13 PM. Reason : ,.,]

10/23/2005 2:10:59 PM

no, it is not a logical fallacy

you stated it right here

Quote :

"I'd always rather have the individual or a business telling me what to do rather than the government, at least I can tell them to "FUCK OFF!" without winding up in jail."

I also find it funny how loneshark thinks himself and expert on Russia.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 2:14 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2005 2:14:01 PM

uhhh weapons technology??

10/23/2005 2:15:47 PM

Quote :

"I'd like to remind you of who invented the satelite, one of the most important inventions of the 20th century.Soviet German innovation was only later surpassed by American more German innovation."

I know somebody already beat me to this, but counldn't resist...P.S. I don't beleive our German scientist were under the threat of violence unlike Mother Russia.

10/23/2005 2:22:39 PM

Quote :

"Because obviously Food Lion is the only place in North America to get food."

It will be once it price gouges and monopolizes.

Quote :

"True, they may develop technology, but their dispersal of technology left much to be desired."

They disperse it rather well, give it to everyone. That tends to be the prefered way for any institution to spread knowledge. That's why our libraries don't charge you for reading a book.

Quote :

"I know somebody already beat me to this, but counldn't resist...P.S. I don't beleive our German scientist were under the threat of violence unlike Mother Russia."

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. The soviets, just like the americans took advantage of hitler's military research, but it wasn't even nearly german development alone that got the soviets to where they were. The soviets continued their own rocket, nuclear, and electronic research, the germans didn't build the rocket that launched the sputnik, the soviets did, the germans just gave them a starting point.

10/23/2005 3:01:25 PM

Quote :

"They disperse it rather well, give it to everyone. That tends to be the prefered way for any institution to spread knowledge. That's why our libraries don't charge you for reading a book."

Im sorry this gave me a pretty good laugh.

They dont give information to everyone, it was always the goal of the soviets and every other communist regime that has existed to suppress information because of its subversive nature.

This really isnt debatable but I gurantee you will try, even though what you just said is an absolute farce.

10/23/2005 4:15:21 PM

Quote :

"It will be once it price gouges and monopolizes."

Because price gauging is the quickest way to build a monopoly. Nevertheless, although no evidence exists to suggest monopolies are endemic and not self eliminating, trust-busting doesn't seem too intrusive, as long as it is rarely if ever utilized.

If I dislike Food Lion and what it has done to my home town I can pull up stake and move away. If I dislike what the Government has done, pulling up stake and moving away would be considered a criminal act, I'll be put in prison! Doesn't everyone remember what happened when the air-traffic controllers refused to come to work during the 1980s? Reagan ordered them all to either come to work or report to jail! Could you imagine Wal-Mart issuing warrants for the arrest of discruntled employees? Well, if Wal-Mart is ever nationalized like Kris prefers, that will be the next step.

10/23/2005 4:32:53 PM

as I said earlier, loneshark wishes to replace government with corporations.

10/23/2005 4:43:53 PM

emigration is illegal?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

10/23/2005 5:13:21 PM

^it is in the countries that Kris so loves unless youve forgotten about the berlin wall and floating pick up trucks.

10/23/2005 5:18:30 PM

Quote :

"They dont give information to everyone, it was always the goal of the soviets and every other communist regime that has existed to suppress information because of its subversive nature."

Care to back that up? I mean if it isn't really debateable you should have no trouble proving it, right?

Quote :

"Because price gauging is the quickest way to build a monopoly."

Not neccesarily, it's just a way that the monopoly defeats the free market. Just one example of the free market destroing the open competition it thrives upon.

Quote :

"If I dislike Food Lion and what it has done to my home town I can pull up stake and move away."

This isn't really an option for the masses of poor. They are just as tied down by economic forces as your example is of physical ones.

Quote :

"Could you imagine Wal-Mart issuing warrants for the arrest of discruntled employees? Well, if Wal-Mart is ever nationalized like Kris prefers, that will be the next step."

Communists have always been aligned with worker's unions. We would never betray ourselves. We are the workers, and that is who most people are, we should have the power because we are in the majority.

10/23/2005 6:28:34 PM

Quote :

"Care to back that up? I mean if it isn't really debateable you should have no trouble proving it, right?"

I cant believe this, does nothing ever phase you Kris? I have to wonder whether you just refuse to concede or back down from points youve already made or whether you actually believe all your bullshit and genuinely think that it is impossible for you to be wrong.

The fact that the Soviets, Chinese, etc. suppress information should be as painfully obvious as saying the sky is blue.

Now seriously are you going to continue to actually say that there was a free flow of information available to everyone in these regimes and that they never suppressed or censored anything?

10/23/2005 7:00:21 PM

Quote :

"I cant believe this, does nothing ever phase you Kris? I have to wonder whether you just refuse to concede or back down from points youve already made or whether you actually believe all your bullshit and genuinely think that it is impossible for you to be wrong."

I'm sorry I didn't cave in to the powerful arguement of "UR WRONG!". I believe the statement to be true or I wouldn't have made it. Unless you can provide some compelling evidence/arguement to the contrary, I'll continue to believe it.

Quote :

"The fact that the Soviets, Chinese, etc. suppress information should be as painfully obvious as saying the sky is blue."

And you believe this why? Did you live in one of these countries? Did you do extensive research on them? Do you have any more reason to believe the contrary than you say that I have? You are just taking the lazy method rather than argueing. If you didn't want to say anything besides "UR WRONG" you shouldn't have bothered to post anything at all.

Quote :

"Now seriously are you going to continue to actually say that there was a free flow of information available to everyone in these regimes and that they never suppressed or censored anything?"

That changes the arguement we are having a bit, let's try and stay focused, there isn't much point in chaning the arguement when you haven't presented one to begin with. We are discussing the free transfer of technology and knowledge, information implies something different.

Now if you have some evidence that the soviets had patents or something of the like I'd love to see it.

10/23/2005 7:11:00 PM

How can you work hard to get more for yourself/family in a communist system?
How is it decided who gets how much?

10/23/2005 7:17:27 PM

Quote :

"^it is in the countries that Kris so loves unless youve forgotten about the berlin wall and floating pick up trucks."

in a hypothetical, economic situation, i don't see how the berlin wall comes into play.

10/23/2005 7:19:19 PM

Quote :

"How can you work hard to get more for yourself/family in a communist system?"

What more would you want?

Quote :

"How is it decided who gets how much?"

Everyone gets what they need.

10/23/2005 7:23:20 PM

I like having more than I need.

10/23/2005 8:26:59 PM

Your wants are a product of the environment you live in. You are conditioned to want more than you need. In many civiliazations people live perfectly happily with only their needs being served. Greed and superfluous desires are in no way an innate part of "human nature", they are simply products of conitioning from living in a culture that encourages overindulgence.

10/23/2005 8:54:25 PM

well, now that I'm used to overindulgence, I'd rather not go back to mayonaise or fried bologna sandwiches.

10/23/2005 9:01:18 PM

That would change over generations of socialism.

10/23/2005 9:02:22 PM

Quote :

"I'm sorry I didn't cave in to the powerful arguement of "UR WRONG!". "

Well when somebody says something as absurd as your statement, "UR WRONG" is actually quite enough.

I dont think too many people would take time to provide sources to someone who believes the nazis won the second world war, the same applies here.

Quote :

"We are discussing the free transfer of technology and knowledge, information implies something different."

Information implies a specific type of knowledge that would include technology.

10/23/2005 9:17:24 PM

Quote :

"Your wants are a product of the environment you live in. You are conditioned to want more than you need..."

I would love to witness the frugality with which you live. What with all the computers and all, your needs must be great.

10/23/2005 9:26:38 PM

If you're one who really believes they should live their life with only what they need, there are plenty of places you can go to achieve this right here in the US.

If you're one who thinks that people should be forced to live with only what they need, there are plenty of expletives for you as well.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 9:28 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2005 9:27:46 PM

Quote :

"Well when somebody says something as absurd as your statement, "UR WRONG" is actually quite enough."

Oh, you're dodging again.

Quote :

"Information implies a specific type of knowledge that would include technology."

We both know where you were going with that, and it didn't involve technology.

Quote :

"I would love to witness the frugality with which you live. What with all the computers and all, your needs must be great."

I don't live meagerly, I was conditioned in a capitalistic society, I want all kinds of things, a new motherboard, a Nord lead 3, a fender P bass, a new car, and 2 of those sweet LCD monitors, oh and a new tv, one of those plasma ones. I know damned well I'm conditioned with wants. That doesn't imply that these wants are innate.

Quote :

"If you're one who thinks that people should be forced to live with only what they need, there are plenty of expletives for you as well."

Does it frighten you that badly? You are a robot, you wouldn't even have these crazy wants and greeds and such if you were conditioned properly.

10/23/2005 9:53:09 PM

Ahh...so you would live frugally, satisfying only your needs but your conditioning in a capitalistic societ prevents you from doing so? Seems like an excuse to me.

I would say that the desire to live better is an innate trait. If it were not, we'd still be grunting at each other in the back of a cold cave, hoping that tomorrow's hunting-and-gathering is better than today's. Everyone is looking for something more, something bigger, something better. Certainly an individual's concept of what is bigger and better is a product of up-bringing and the environment, but each and every one of us strives for our own ideal of betterment.

10/23/2005 10:07:56 PM

Quote :

"Ahh...so you would live frugally, satisfying only your needs but your conditioning in a capitalistic societ prevents you from doing so?"

That's pretty much the fundemental belief of my system, that no one is ever independent of their conditioning.

Quote :

"I would say that the desire to live better is an innate trait."

That's not the same thing as greed. Progress and excess do not neccesitate one another.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 10:17 PM. Reason : ]

10/23/2005 10:17:23 PM

So you're saying that people are a product of their environment? I don't think anyone can deny that, but you also seem to be saying that people are incapable of changing learned behaviors. That is definitely wrong.

Quote :

"That's not the same thing as greed."

One man's greed is another's neccessity.

10/23/2005 10:23:59 PM

yes, kris, the thought of someone forcing me to live on mayonaise sandwiches frightens me. I must be the world's biggest pussy.

10/23/2005 10:31:52 PM

Quote :

"Progress and excess do not neccesitate one another."

History: What we consider "Past Progress" past generations would consider "future Excess."

I'm curious Kris, what would we have? With full conditioning, of course, what do you envision to be the perfect future state of mankind? For the sake of simplicity, assume no new technology, although I do recognize you believe your economic system would be quicker at developing technology I feel it is too subjective to speculate.

For example, just a quick listing:
How many hours does the average person work per week?
Preferred mode of transportation (short/long haul)?
Urban/rural?
Average number of offspring? Who raises them?

This sort of thing. Purely a mental exercise, non-binding. I just want to know what you have in mind with all this. Oh, and do your best to isolate your answer from your capitalist training. Thanks

10/23/2005 10:39:43 PM

he wants us to stop being "robots" and have the same stuff as everyone else.

10/23/2005 10:45:47 PM

Quote :

"but you also seem to be saying that people are incapable of changing learned behaviors"

No, I am saying they are capable. We are conditioned for greed, this could be changed.

Quote :

"One man's greed is another's neccessity."

Needs are objective, wants are subjective.

Quote :

"yes, kris, the thought of someone forcing me to live on mayonaise sandwiches frightens me. I must be the world's biggest pussy."

It's ok, the ideas of electricity and democracy scared primitive people as well.

Quote :

"History: What we consider "Past Progress" past generations would consider "future Excess.""

Negative.

Quote :

"How many hours does the average person work per week?"

40-60 probably, scientists would determine the optimal work week.

Quote :

"Preferred mode of transportation (short/long haul)?"

Mostly public transportation, buses trains etc.

Quote :

"Urban/rural?"

Both. But more urban.

Quote :

"Average number of offspring? Who raises them?"

As many as the women want to have. The state raises them.

Keep in mind this would be many generations in the future and things would probably change, but that's kind of an idea.

Quote :

" Oh, and do your best to isolate your answer from your capitalist training."

I'm not all capitalist, the capitalists have a rather choatic conditioning so it's far from perfect.

Quote :

"he wants us to stop being "robots" and have the same stuff as everyone else."

You're a robot in any system. My system just takes advantage of our robotic brain.

10/23/2005 10:56:02 PM

Quote :

"The state raises them."

disturbing.

Quote :

"My system just takes advantage of our robotic brain."

hahahahahahahahaha

10/23/2005 11:06:10 PM

Now now, don't laugh too hard. If you believed the reasons he does then you too would sound just as silly. He has just never met any babies at play and noticed any common tendencies.

10/24/2005 8:01:12 AM

Observing children might lend to the obvious conclusion from someone like you, who knows nothing of psychology or sociology, that the childs actions are inate. Something like an obvious conclusion from someone who knows nothing of science might be that the stars are gods in the heavens, while we know that they are burning gaseous balls in space.

I think the "Little Albert" experiment lends credit to the idea that humans have few, if any innate tendencies. It's too bad that the code of ethics was later instated that ended these kinds of studies on babies.

[Edited on October 24, 2005 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ]

10/24/2005 1:51:29 PM

Some find a problem with the "stars are gods" theory, learn the theory they are burning gasses and stop learning about them.

Some keep going and find out that some stars are actually other planets or solar systems.

10/24/2005 5:43:14 PM

Way to overextend the analogy to the point it becomes meaningless. You understood what I was saying. I didn't name what each star was because that's irrelevant to the point.

10/24/2005 6:46:03 PM

I didn't say you don't know what stars are any more than you were claiming anyone here believes stars are gods.

10/24/2005 9:09:27 PM

I don't understand that sentence.

10/24/2005 9:34:04 PM

reread it. you might also try saying it out loud sounding out the words.

10/24/2005 9:42:24 PM