Quote :

" wait, most of these were children...THEY MUSTVE ATTACKED US FIRST!"

nuff said.






30thAnnZ, just because xyzabc put pictures of Iraq from a differnet perspective doesn't mean he's acting "like there's a systematic intent to kill as many civilians as possible."

Rather, he's just showing that there are sides to the war that we don't see. There are thousands of lives that could have been saved if it weren't for the war. Whether the injuries to civilians are intentional or not, that's not the question. The main point here is to get you to at least to realize and accept the fact that both guilty and innocent Iraqis are being hurt....

What if this was your daughter or sister? What if this was you? Would you think it was fair to be permanently physically and emotionally scarred just because Bush wasn't brave enough to kick Sadam into jail in the first place w/o the war?


[Edited on October 19, 2005 at 1:39 AM. Reason : sheesh]

10/19/2005 1:32:21 AM

life's not fair

10/19/2005 1:35:01 AM

Quote :

"ahahaha wtf? Maybe you should talk to some of the T-dubbers who have actually been to Iraq and have been personally thanked by many Iraqis for liberating them before you post bullshit like this. "

aight, before you start swearing, realize what you're talking about. the dude said muslims are praying "to stop the opression." True, a lot of muslims are thanking God that Sadam is out. But thousands of Iraqis are furious that their loved one (grandmother, wife, son, mother) were killed for the sake of Sadam. If I was an Iraqi and was living in Iraq and met a US soldier... the last thing I'd do is cuss him out. I mean, i'd be making sure i'm kissin his ass so he saves mine. Nobody would know who he is if he took me to a corner and raped/killed me.

10/19/2005 1:38:29 AM

our soldiers aren't gay ok?

10/19/2005 1:58:22 AM

Quote :

"Ain't war hell?!"

10/20/2005 12:26:09 AM

ok

many of those show the agony, but the actual casualty is not as bad as what the camera captures


these got to me. don't wish this on any child.















this one shows the soldiers in a different light, and there's many more of these out there





i saw this one a long time ago, and it still gets me

10/20/2005 12:40:21 AM

OH GOD YOU DIED IN 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!

LIFE ISNT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG BOMBINGS BY TURRISTS!!!!!!!!!!


this thread has gotten fuckin silly.

10/20/2005 1:01:10 AM

^^ GOOD RIDDANCE

Those "kids" would have grown up to become terrorists anyway.

NIP IT IN THE BUD.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 7:13 PM. Reason : That should teach them a lesson]

10/20/2005 7:13:07 PM

Quote :

"“We kill innocent Iraqi civilians all the time. That’s the way it is. I believe they need to withdraw all foreign military troops in Iraq right away. And I say this about other soldiers: to avoid punishment or reprisals by the military, they don’t want to talk and admit that killing terrorists is not our mission. It’s to kill innocent civilians.” "

-Massey 'That’s me, a marine, a murderer of civilians’

site http://colorado.indymedia.org/newswire/display/10620/index.php

10/20/2005 8:10:36 PM

And another shocking interview with Massey:
some txt was cut to fit this post.


http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html


Atrocities in Iraq: 'I killed innocent people for our government'
By Paul Rockwell -- Special to The Bee
Published 2:15 am PDT Sunday, May 16, 2004

The Iraq war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged with full severance last Dec. 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, N.C.

When I talked with Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved.

Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq?

A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion.

Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?

A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn't see any humanitarian support.

Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines?

A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?

A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks.

Q: He spoke English?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right?

A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That's what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren't in uniform. We never found any weapons.

Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties?

A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch.

Q: Over what period did all this take place?

A: During the invasion of Baghdad.


'We lit him up pretty good'
Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"?
A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn't stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn't really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives.

Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case?

A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot.

Q: A demonstration? Where?

A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn't. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it."


Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out?

A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials, including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government.

Q: What kind of firepower was employed?

A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns.

Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out?

A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don't shoot." Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off.

Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident?

A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this.

Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details.

A: That's all right. It's kind of therapy for me. Because it's something that I had repressed for a long time.

Q: And the incident?

A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don't know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with his hands up." Man, I forgot about this.

Embedded reporters
Q: How are the embedded reporters responding?
A: I had embedded reporters in my unit, not my platoon. One we had was a South African reporter. He was scared s---less. We had an incident where one of them wanted to go home.

Q: Why?

A: It was when we started going into Baghdad. When he started seeing the civilian casualties, he started wigging out a little bit. It didn't start until we got on the outskirts of Baghdad and started taking civilian casualties.

Q: I would like to go back to the first incident, when the survivor asked why did you kill his brother. Was that the incident that pushed you over the edge, as you put it?

A: Oh, yeah. Later on I found out that was a typical day. I talked with my commanding officer after the incident. He came up to me and says: "Are you OK?" I said: "No, today is not a good day. We killed a bunch of civilians." He goes: "No, today was a good day." And when he said that, I said "Oh, my goodness, what the hell am I into?"

Q: Your feelings changed during the invasion. What was your state of mind before the invasion?

A: I was like every other troop. My president told me they got weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam threatened the free world, that he had all this might and could reach us anywhere. I just bought into the whole thing.

Q: What changed you?

A: The civilian casualties taking place. That was what made the difference. That was when I changed.

Q: Did the revelations that the government fabricated the evidence for war affect the troops?

A: Yes. I killed innocent people for our government. For what? What did I do? Where is the good coming out of it? I feel like I've had a hand in some sort of evil lie at the hands of our government. I just feel embarrassed, ashamed about it.


Showdown with superiors
Q: I understand that all the incidents - killing civilians at checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally - weigh on you. What happened with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?
A: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when we went back down south. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these things were going through my head - about what we were doing over there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him and told him: "You know, I honestly feel that what we're doing is wrong over here. We're committing genocide."

He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.

Q: What happened then?

A: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I was basically put on house arrest. I didn't talk to other troops. I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to jeopardize them.

I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the sergeant major. He's in charge of 3,500-plus Marines. "Sir," I told him, "I don't want your money. I don't want your benefits. What you did was wrong."

It was just a personal conviction with me. I've had an impeccable career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the president of the U.S. It's not the grunt. I blame the president because he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.

10/20/2005 8:12:46 PM

This Massey guy is saying some things that are pretty fucking suspect without any corroboration, and even if he's telling the truth as best he knows it there are some pretty fucking subjective lines in there that you seem to be gobbling up like candy.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people are surprised when innocent people die in wars, just like it doesn't that they expect me to be.

10/20/2005 8:57:31 PM

^ there will be more. these servicemen cant handle the murdering trauma they have inflicted upon these people. the nightmares of the crimes they committed will haunt them for life. more will come out and speak. just give it time.

Quote :

"Well, this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks."

10/24/2005 5:37:43 PM

^ they didn't do anything wrong? the stupid fucks didn't stop at a checkpoint. how were they supposed to know the car wasn't packed with explosives.

people do stupid shit every day and end up dead for it.

10/25/2005 8:35:07 AM

So If This Was Your Daughter How Would You Feel ? taken from


again.. pictures dont lie... harassment of women and children, ... ?











http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3916.htm

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 12:14 AM. Reason : ..]

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 12:14 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2005 12:11:06 AM

CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER

YOU DO NOT KNOW THE CONTEXT OF THOSE PHOTOS. SO QUIT WITH THE "PHOTOS DON'T LIE" BULLSHIT.

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 8:13 AM. Reason : *]

10/26/2005 8:13:06 AM

Quote :

"So If This Was Your Daughter How Would You Feel ? taken from again.. pictures dont lie... harassment of women and children, ... ? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3916.htm"

10/26/2005 8:46:49 AM

Quote :

"war with iraq was highly illegal in the first place. (even said by the un, too bad they dont have a voice"

So tell me, how many UN sanctions did Sadam break again?

Quote :

"they hate us. when you have innocents opressed and at least 100,000 dead, murdered, imprisoned and thousands women, men and children humilated in every way shape and form, no one can ignore this not in the name of 'liberation' rather 'opression'. wake up and see what is happening"

Did you just miss the past election where more of their people voted than us in the last elections? You dont think Sadam "murdered, imprisoned, and humilated in ever way shape and form" these people to begin with?

10/26/2005 9:06:34 AM

We went to war over fictitious WMDs, not UN sanctions.

btw, Israel broke more UN sanctions/resolutions than Iraq

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 9:12 AM. Reason : l]

10/26/2005 9:11:14 AM

A war is a war and there will be casualties right and left, but its just not right to destroy everyone including chidren and women!

HEY AMERICA, HOW ABOUT DESTROYING THE ONES WHO ARE IN CHARGE AND NOT THE INNOCENT! OR HOW ABOUT DESTROYING SADDAAM AND HIS ALLIES (ALLIES:YOURSELF) AND GET THE FUCK OUT? OH WAIT YOU WANT THE OIL, THE CONTROLL AND OH WAIT SADAM IS EATING MUFFINS AND PANCACKES EVERY MORNING WHILE HIS COUNTRY FOLKS ARE BEING KILLED, AND OH WAIT THERE IS NO ONE IN CHARGE OVER THERE!!! SO WTF ARE YOU UPTO NOW!?

and how about doing the same mistake of training the Iraqis to fight in combat and police training like you did in Afganistan with Osama Bin Ladin?? Hmm..that must be good since there not ever gonna turn against you since their not gonna remember what you did to them...

why?

sincerely,

a dear citezen of the united states of America

God I love this county and hate the people who run it! (its not us BTW)

10/27/2005 2:18:36 AM

this whole war is fucked up. those photos are deeply disturbing.

10/27/2005 12:17:32 PM

More on what the 'liberating' us soldiers are doing; .... this paper was presented in geneva this year by Kristen McNutt, a humanitarian lawyer ; highly credible, you can e mail/contact her yourself and check her references. im happy that she is letting people know the truth. the entire article could not fit. see the link for more.


http://www.humanlaw.org/

SEXUALIZED VIOLENCE AGAINST IRAQI WOMEN BY US OCCUPYING FORCES
A Briefing Paper
OF INTERNATIONAL EDUCATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Kristen McNutt, Researcher, Association of Humanitarian Lawyers
Presented to The United Nations Commission on Human Rights
2005 Session March
Geneva


Contact: ied@igc.org

Iraqi female detainees have been illegally detained, raped and sexually violated by United States military personnel. Women who stay at home in traditional roles are more likely to be imprisoned as bargaining chips by US troops seeking to pressurize male relatives, according to the New Statesmen (UK)[1]. In December 2003, a woman prisoner, \"Noor\", smuggled out a note stating that US guards at Abu Ghraib had been raping women detainees and forcing them to strip naked. Several of the women were now pregnant.[2] The classified enquiry launched by the US military, headed by Major General Antonio Taguba, has confirmed the note by \"Noor\" and that sexual violence against women at Abu Ghraib took place. Among the 1,800 digital photographs taken by US guards inside Abu Ghraib there were, according to Taguba's report, images of naked male and female detainees; a male Military Police guard \"having sex\" with a female detainee; detainees (of unspecified gender) forcibly arranged in various sexually explicit positions for photographing; and naked female detainees.[3] The Bush administration has refused to release photographs of Iraqi women prisoners at Abu Ghraib, including those of women forced at gunpoint to bare their breasts (although these have been shown to Congress). [4] UK Member of Parliament Ann Clwyd (L) has confirmed a report of an Iraqi woman in her 70s who had been harnessed and ridden like a donkey at Abu Ghraib and another coalition detention centre after being arrested last July. Clwyd said: "She was held for about six weeks without charge. During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey."[5]
The Italian journalist, Giuliana Sgrena, reports that In the middle of the night, American soldiers broke into the home of Mithal al Hassan and arrested both her and her son. \"The soldiers later ransacked the apartment. Denounced as part of a vendetta, Mithal was condemned without trial to eighty days of horror in the company of other women prisoners who, like her, were subjected to abuse and torture. She has since spotted her tormentors on the internet.\" [6] A culture of honor prevents many women from telling stories of rapes. The account given by \"Selwa\", illustrates this. In September 2003, Selwa was taken by US military personnel to a detention facility in Tikrit, where an American of?cer lit a mixture of human feces and urine in a metal container and gave Selwa a heavy club to stir it. She recalls, \"The ?re from the pot felt very strong on my face.\" She leans forward and sweeps her hands through the air to show how she stirred the excrement. \"I became very tired,\" she says. \"I told the sergeant I couldn’t do it.\" \"There was another man close to us. The sergeant came up to me and whispered in my ear, \'If you don’t, I will tell one of the soldiers to fuck you.’\" Selwa could not continue with the story.[7]An Iraqi girl, Raghada, reports that her mother, imprisoned at Abu Ghraib, was forced to eat from a toilet and was urinated on[8].
Iman Khamas, head of the International Occupation Watch Center, a nongovernmental organization which gathers information on human rights abuses under coalition rule, has said; \"one former detainee had recounted the alleged rape of her cell mate in Abu Ghraib.\" According to Khamas, the prisoner said; \"she had been rendered unconscious for 48 hours.\" She claimed; \"She had been raped 17 times in one day by Iraqi police in the presence of American solders\".[9]

Another woman, "Nadia," reported that she was raped by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison. She continues to be "imprisoned" by painful memories that left her psychologically and physically scarred. [10]
Late last year, attorney Amal Kadham Swadi, one of seven female lawyers now representing women detainees in Abu Ghraib, began to piece together a picture of systemic abuse and torture by US guards against Iraqi women held in detention without charge. This was not only true of Abu Ghraib, she discovered, but was, as she put it, "happening all across Iraq". Amal Kadham Swadi states that \"sexualized violence and abuse committed by US troops goes far beyond a few isolated cases.\" [11]It is unknown as to exactly how many female detainees there are. \'The International Committee of the Red Cross reports that 30 women were housed in Abu Ghraib last October, 2003, which was reduced to 0 by May 29, 2004\".[12]
Swadi visited a detainee held at the US military base a Al-Khakh, a former police compound in Baghdad. The detainee disclosed that, \"Several American solders had raped her and that she had tried to fight them off and they had hurt her arm\".[13]
These and other incidents are being covered up for US domestic consumption. President G W Bush has insisted that these were the actions of a few and were not the result of military policy. However, a fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, points to complicity to sexual torture by the entire Army prison system. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of \"sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses\" at Abu Ghraib.[14]
The cover-up by the Bush Administration appears to include the silencing of victims. Professor Huda Shaker al-Nuaimi, a political scientist at Baghdad University, who is interviewing female prisoners as a volunteer for Amnesty International, reports that the woman, called \"Noor,\" who smuggled the letter out of Abu Ghraib, is now presumed dead. \"We believe she was raped and that she was pregnant by a US guard. After her release from Abu Ghraib, I went to her house. The neighbors said that her family had moved away. I believed that she was killed\".[15]
It is well known that the US has a culture of rape: one in six women in the United States has experienced an attempted or completed sexual assault.[16]

http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=11094&s2=15

10/27/2005 4:16:01 PM

i'm sure everyone of those people are completely honest and without agenda.

good job, there's proof!

10/27/2005 4:20:33 PM

we've got fucked up assholes in our country too. doesn't mean we should torture everyone just because there's a few bad apples in the bunch.

10/27/2005 4:24:40 PM

Quote :

"Did you just miss the past election where more of their people voted than us in the last elections?"

maybe you didnt pay attention to whats really going on. the vote is messed up and is not representative of the iraqi people; it could even be fixed with a pro-usa agenda, who knows ...

i suggest you read these 2 websites ....

October 18, 2005
“Elections” and other Deceptions in Iraq

for example,

Just before Saturday’s so-called constitutional referendum vote in occupied Iraq, one of my close friends in Baghdad wrote me, “I would like to point out that we are three days away from the referendum, yet very large sectors of Iraqi people couldn’t receive part of the five million copies [of the constitution] from the UN, ie- they will not know what the constitution contains. Subsequently, they will vote according to their backgrounds or religious or political preferences. Many people who will vote yes do not know why they will vote yes...what kind of vote is this?”


http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000302.php#more



Iraq referendum produces a divisive and illegitimate result
James Cogan, WSWS
October 27, 2005


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/iraq-o27.shtml

10/28/2005 7:22:30 AM

this is more of what the world needs to know... you may check references...

Quote :

"Sacrifice is essential to winning war," he said, "and this war will require more sacrifice, more time, and more resolve."

-GWB

Iraq’s civilians paid a higher price




http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9902





the view from the other side, those who had to suffer; this person was mentioned in general taugbas report of detainee abused, her letter was smuggled out by visitors and put in the hands of people who would let the world know what has happened, and continues to happen at the hands of us forces, i do realize there are some 'anti- american' themes in the beginning of her letter, but if you were put in the same situation, you would probably feel the same against anyone who opresses...





[Edited on October 28, 2005 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 28, 2005 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2005 4:59:27 PM

Photographs of grinning GIs crouched over the iced-down, battered corpse of Manadel al-Jamadi





Jamadi's wife and son hold a photo of an American GI grinning over his corpse



courtest of NAVY Seals-- Hmm.. i wonder what this little boy is goign to grow up thinking.. ?

reported on NPR
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4977986

[Edited on October 31, 2005 at 12:15 AM. Reason : .]

10/31/2005 12:15:15 AM

http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/world/2005/10/30/raman.iraq.casualty.numbers.cnn

Well, despite the Liberal vs Conservative name calling, the media still comes through now and again. So despite what I and other have always been saying, belive it or not......its the insurgents killing most of the Iraqi's. But of course, what else would xyzabc and others have to say if they couldn't tear down our efforts in Iraq.

11/1/2005 3:18:38 PM

well, if there had been no war, there'd be no crazy insurgents setting off all these car bombs and causing this.

the price we pay to revome a 3rd world dictator...wonderful.

V so youre saying none of this is directly related to occupation? that they just want have a urge to kill people, not to protect anything or to lash out at something they object to (not to protect their terrible actions)?

OMG I MUST HATE FREEDOMS!!11



[Edited on November 1, 2005 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

11/1/2005 8:13:45 PM

they'd be doing crazy shit somewhere else

11/1/2005 8:14:20 PM

This is by far the worst. Let the moron 30thAnn provide a hypothetical context that would justify that.

11/1/2005 8:22:56 PM

FREEDOMS ISNT FREE

11/1/2005 8:24:34 PM

^^ we have no idea.

perhaps he had just beheaded six kids.

perhaps he was walking his dog.

we don't know.

11/1/2005 8:28:26 PM

i just found out my freedom costs about 100 dead babies.

11/1/2005 11:39:37 PM

^just real quick... to all you guys talking about insurgents... to you what is an insurgent? ill say what i have to say, but want to hear your thougts first..

11/2/2005 12:29:04 AM

this is another one... how troops humiliate and get the support of iraqi citizens. only if these kids knew what they were holding up, maybe one day they will. its pretty sad if u ask me. demoralizing. pathetic.

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1444.shtml


i wonder how we would feel, the equivalent, someone coming on hillsboro st. and holding us up? is that insane or what? just a view from the other side



[Edited on November 2, 2005 at 1:05 AM. Reason : .]

11/2/2005 12:37:35 AM

so are you anti-war or anti-american soldier?

11/2/2005 12:42:52 AM

^anti-war for sure,

as to answer your question about soldiers... they could be your neighbor or a person who sits next to you in class, young kids right out of high school as young as 18 . could be really wonderful people. no worries here. nothing against them.

when they become part of the opression, ie ) from raping women, abuse, torture of people, humiliating them, destroying/killing/murder/trying to create disunity among the iraqi people (us and british soldiers dressing in arab clothing etc/deception) ...ie) basra connection --see any news source a few weeks back..

it becomes a problem. they are aiding in opression, and they DO know it in their hearts, even if they say otherwise. if u still think your liberating people, well then ... perhaps they are still brainwashed.. i dont know... and it appears troops are enjoying humilating others with delight (not everyone, but it seems that is the case--remeber abu gharib, how big is that prison again, how many thousands of people were held there? how long were the abuses goign on until 1 soldier stood up and spoke up?) ,

Once they realize that they are part of the opression ;then, in my opinion, it becomes an incumbent duty upon them to get away or stop assisting the opression. we all know now that going to war was based upon bogus fabricated information. lying and forgery in its finest. and that anyone and everyone in iraq now is a terrorist or insurgent or whatever u wana call it. so the whole idea is blast/bomb the hell out of every town that fights back. what about their freedoms? is it justified? if someone comes in and kills your family, rapes your wife, and then humiliates and urinates on you are you going to sit down and thank them? the troops need to be educated and perhaps then, they will understand the reality of what is really going on. if they knew, my guess is that they would not support the war now days.

[Edited on November 2, 2005 at 1:34 AM. Reason : .]

11/2/2005 1:32:24 AM

Quote :

"the troops need to be educated and perhaps then, they will understand the reality of what is really going on. if they knew, my guess is that they would not support the war now days."

My guess is that the troops "understand the reality of what is really going on" a little better than you.

11/2/2005 1:43:20 AM

^ perhaps yes and no, but at the same time, they are fed with lies. start telling them truth, and i would imagine a change. *see massey story for example,

11/2/2005 1:52:47 AM

wow...it means a little more when you realize it's real and not another war movie

11/2/2005 1:54:58 AM

^^ I asked because it sounds like you think that every soldier walks around shooting children for fun, then raping their mothers and urinating on their surviving family before burning their house down.

Your opinion sounds extremely one sided.

Quote :

"perhaps yes and no, but at the same time, they are fed with lies. start telling them truth, and i would imagine a change."

Troops have access to everything that you do. The military doesn't impose a media blackout on soldiers. Its ignorant to assume that you are better informed than they are.

[Edited on November 2, 2005 at 2:00 AM. Reason : .]

11/2/2005 1:58:32 AM

xyzabc... have some respect for some of the soldiers. like joshua said, you make this all look like every soldier is guilty of whatever happened in your pictures. i know a couple soldiers myself, including one that just got back. he could tell you what it was like, but you couldn't begin to understand. so, give some exceptions, or keep your anti-war agenda to yourself. tell the truth, but tell the whole truth.

11/2/2005 2:54:29 AM

^ on a kinder why dont you interview them, and post their experiences on here, we would all be interested?

Quote :

"but you couldn't begin to understand"

understand what? about the killing, murder, rape, bombings, stress, torture, trauma all the name of liberation? did I forget to mention the kidnapping of little orphanage girls?
help me to understand that. does 100,000 dead mean anything to you? dont u see whats happening, iraq and its people are being destroyed. nothing personal, the only reason i am opposed tothe war is because it is an injustice not only to mankind, but the americans at large.



about respect for the soldiers, i do understand your point, but, if they are doing something really wrong even if it is acting 'under orders'. they are doing it themself, hence part of the opression ie) assisting ...

[Edited on November 2, 2005 at 3:09 AM. Reason : .]

11/2/2005 3:06:04 AM

are you saying all the soldiers were ordered to rape and kidnap? that's how it looks.

all those things happening to iraqi civilians? been goin on a long time before we even went over there.

help you understand all that? no one can that hasn't really been there. but i know better than to think that the only things happening in iraq are in your pictures, and that's why i'm asking for something for the soldiers, the majority of them, that aren't responsible for these pictures.

11/2/2005 3:12:20 AM

Interview with an Iraqi woman and internal refugee
By: Alive in Baghdad
Published October 29th, 2005



From Brian | October 29th, 2005 |

Omar: Why did you leave your house?

K: We left our home because of the threat and killing and people used to call our area the Death Triangle, Mahmudiya, Thuluayah, and Yusifiyah.

Omar: Did the government provide food supplies, material aid or at least security?

K: No, there wasn’t any kind of support from the government, even the police checkpoints, they were not distributed correctly and it is an open area. Anyone can come and kill and no one will look after him.

Omar: Was the Resistance helping that area, by providing material aid or security?

K: Yes, we were having such things, but after the American forces and the Multinational Forces entered the area, everything was mixed. We can’t identify who are the terrorists and who’s the Resistance.

Omar: How is the life in Baghdad now?

K: Well the situation in Baghdad is chaos. All the people are afraid from the blasts. Even if a person gets back to his home, he will still be scared because he’ll feel that the next blast will be in front of his house.

Omar: How is the life in Baghdad for you as an individual?

K: Life has become so difficult, the prices are too high and there are no jobs. We are facing so many difficulties. From the financial side life became so difficult for us, because there is no work, no jobs, even if we found jobs, we can’t get there safely, because most of the roads are dangerous and we can’t go peacefully to workplaces and come back safe.

Omar: How do you describe the life in Baghdad before the Occupation?

K: I consider it Heaven on Earth.

Omar: How did you expect the War would be?

K: Well I expected that this war would be for Iraq’s good.

Omar: Did you think that this would be like the first Gulf War, without Occupation?

K: No, no, no. I didn’t expect that one day I would wake up from my bed and see the Americans filling the streets.

Omar: How was the Iraq situation after the first Gulf War?

K: Well the situation was much better, at least we used to have security, the prices were kind of low, and everything was available. Education was available, but now we can’t let our children or our brothers to go to the school or the college, because of the blasts and the dangers hidden in the street, or the kidnapping. Or anything else similar.

Omar: So do you think that the education fell down because of the blasts, because of the security, because of the financial condition for each individual?

K: Yes because of the Occupation, the Occupation made a lot of effects on the education and the financial state of all the people.

Omar: What is your message for the American People?

K: I would send a call, a rescue call. To the American people and especially to the mothers to not let their sons to come to Iraq. Because we are completely destroyed, and we are wounded. We want to feel rest, and we are requesting to all the American forces to pull out from Iraq, and also all the occupying forces, in order to live in peace, to get security. To let our children have a better future.

Omar: Is there anything else you would like to say?

K: We want to have a rest because we are so tired and so sick.

Omar: Can you be more specific about how the life was in Mahmudiyah before the war?

K: Life was so natural in Latifiyah, we used to have a lot of relationships with the people around us, because you know the tribes they are the people who rule that area. There was no fear, no terrorism, but we started to be afraid after the events take place. We started to be afraid of everything and we lost our trust in the things that we used to trust. We even started to be afraid from the usual people, that they would send a report about us, that we are terrorists, so they can detain us. So our life there became so bloody, at least there were ten people killed daily. Even when they were killed there was no one who came to carry the dead bodies. My own opinion is that the terrorism came along with the Occupation. In the past we didn’t have anything like racism or a civil war. We didn’t think about all those things at that time. The occupation is the one who brought the terrorism and also it is the one who brought the prejudice. So why are they talking about the terrorism, when they are the terrorists themselves?

Omar: According to what you’re saying there was no race war between people before the occupation, so can you describe how the Sunna and Shi’a lived before the war?

K: Well this is a very funny thing. I can describe it for you right now; I will give you a small example. I am Sunni and my husband is Shiite. We built a family and I didn’t think one day that I’m Sunni and he is Shiite. And also we used to have a Christian neighbor, we were very good friends. We didn’t have any problems with any other people who had a different religion or a different race. Everyone was living happily together with the different types of people; we were just living like one family, with nothing dividing us. And the only one who benefited from this change was the Occupation.

Omar: So the problems between Sunni and Shiite happened after the Occupation?

K: Yes.

Omar: Do you think that the new Iraqi Constitution will make any difference in life?

K: Well for me, I’ll give you my personal opinion that, I don’t believe in the Constitution and I didn’t vote for the Constitution either. I don’t believe in any constitution written under the Occupation, because this is illegal and you can add to that, there are some Governorates that didn’t agree on the constitution. And also they gave ten days to find the results for the vote and I think this is not enough, because it doesn’t make any difference if they gave 2 days or 100 days, the results is clear, they will agree on the Constitution. And that’s why it won’t make any change in the Iraqi’s life.

Omar: So do you think there are people who didn’t vote because they didn’t read the Constitution? Like there are some Governorate who didn’t agree on the Constitution or because they didn’t think this Constitution is Iraqi 100%?

K: Yes. I agree with you. Because there are some people who didn’t read the Constitution, and at the same time, we believe that the Constitution was not written by Iraqi hands and I think that they needed more time to set up conferences and make long conversations about the Constitution, because a Constitution is not an easy thing. And even they started distributing the Constitution only a very short time before the voting process. And they started giving an explanation about the Constitution and giving books about the constitution only a very short time before the voting process.

Omar: So they didn’t give the Iraqi people enough time to read the constitution and to understand the constitution?

K: Yes. Yes. Even the one who put the Constitution, he might be an Iraqi, have Iraqi citizenship, but he didn’t live in Iraq. And he didn’t go through the bad conditions that Iraq has gone through because the Iraqis suffered a lot and he just go on the television then he talks about what he’s going to do and what he’s willing to do, and he doesn’t know anything about the Iraqi people. So the one who is supposed to create the Constitution, he’s supposed to someone who lived in Iraq, and gone through all the Iraqi’s suffering, not someone who came from outside Iraq.

Omar: Did you feel any kind of change after they agreed on the constitution?

K: You mean like anything serving the community? Absolutely not. And for example you have me, I’m a woman with my husband, and I have a very young child and we are still living here, nothing has changed, and the war is still happening in my area. And we are suffering a lot right now, and I’m wondering why the constitution didn’t serve me with anything.

Omar: So it didn’t change anything in your life, like material or security or anything?

K: Absolutely not. It didn’t change anything. It did not terminate the unemployment. And for example, I graduated from the teachers’ institution and I don’t have a job. I’ve been sitting for a year without a job and I’m still like this right now. So, where is my right as an individual in this Constitution? So you know that the Iraq community is having a lot of problems in their family because the father of any family needs to have a job to feed his kids and help them live. And even there are a lot of children who left the school, to find work, to live. So that’s why the suffering continues.

11/2/2005 5:29:40 AM

Continued Interview with iraqi women

Omar: How is your experience with Women’s Will?

K: Well, after god, they are the ones who saved me. When my family and I left, we didn’t know where we were going or where we were headed to, and my child was only nine days old. And I had a caesarean section. And after I went to Baghdad as a refugee and my husband was jobless, and if we wanted to rent a house we needed a lot of money, and we don’t have that money. So we found the Women’s Will Body with the manager Hanna Ibrahim and Fatima Abood and Wejdan Kareem. They took us in and considered us a family and they provided us accommodation and were like a shelter for us. The Women’s Will Body has been like a second family to me; they helped us a lot through the things we have suffered in.

Omar: So you have heard about Zarqawi and what he has done, do you believe in his existence and what do you think about him?

K: Well from my own opinion I think that there is no Zarqawi or he is an invisible character. And even if he was real, its here to take revenge on the United States, but where? On Iraq’s land.

Omar: So do you think all the beheading operations and all the bombing operations are pointed toward the US Military or is there a part of it toward the Iraqi people?

K: No I think its pointed at the US military, because since I was born, I haven’t heard about such stories or anything like beheading or killing this much. Also I didn’t expect that one day the Iraq condition would be so bad as today, what we are living in. So I think all those operations are pointed at the US Military.

Omar: Do you think that the Zarqawi groups and Zarqawi himself were invented by someone to create instability in Iraq?

K: Well the United States of America, they are the ones behind all of that, because they are the only one who benefits from the unstable situation in Iraq.

Omar: Who do you think benefits from the Occupation?

K: Iraq is a rich country. Anyone who occupies this country will be rich. He will have a lot of benefits from occupying this country, financially because there is a lot of oil in this country. And speaking about oil, we used to have a lot of problems with the gas and the oil. When we came here my child was nine days old and we didn’t have anything to keep her warm, so we used to hold her with a lot of blankets to keep her warm. So we were holding her and we were crying, because we couldn’t provide her oil to keep her warm. There are a lot of things that aren’t available like gas and oil.

Omar: So, speaking about oil and gas, do you think there is an invisible hand stealing those resources?

K: Yes, because we are an oil country, why is the gas not available? They want to make the situation unstable, to use it as a benefit for them. Even if we take the long gas line we will be shocked by a car bomb attacking us, or maybe killed by an exchange of gunfire. Or the driver will stay for one day without work.

Omar: Why do you think all the problems about providing gas and oil are happening? As far as we know Iraq is one of the countries that has a lot of oil in their lands.

K: Iraq is a very, very rich country, but it doesn’t get any of its rights and the Occupation forces, they are the one who decided what happened in here, and what happened tomorrow. The Iraq population started thinking that tomorrow will be worse, it will be chaos.

Omar: What will make the Occupation forces leave Iraq?

K: If Iraqis support each other and the Iraqi people become one group, and keep away anyone trying to mess with this country. And to think about our children and about their future, and to unify and if we are spread we will be weak, and that for sure will make the Occupation forces get out of Iraq. And make the Arab countries try to help Iraq instead of taking a negative stance towards Iraq.

Omar: A negative stance like what?

K: Like sending terrorists to Iraq. The Occupation helps those people to get into Iraq easily because when they occupied Iraq they opened those borders to help people get into Iraq.

Omar: What about the Civil War? Who is responsible and who benefits?

K: The Occupation forces. We didn’t have any of those things ever. It didn’t exist before in Saddam’s time it came with the Occupation. So that’s why they’re saying when one of the Sunni is killed they say one of the Shiites killed him. In my opinion, the Occupying forces are responsible for all these things; the invisible hands belong to the Occupation forces.

Omar: What do you think would make the Resistance stop using guns and come to the negotiation table?

K: Well very simple. Getting the Occupation forces out. When the Occupation will end, the peace will take place. We don’t need a Resistance after that, we will stay in peace.

Omar: So when the Occupation will go and there is a bad government, do you think there will be another Resistance?

K: Well my own opinion is that I don’t think this government will serve us. But if they leave and there are democratic elections as they say, we will vote for a government that will really serve Iraq. If that government will serve the population, there won’t be Resistance anymore.

Omar: That’s in the case if the election is from the population?

K: Yes if it is real.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/68632

[Edited on November 2, 2005 at 5:31 AM. Reason : .link]

11/2/2005 5:30:14 AM

great news. more 'once suspected terrorists/insurgents' rounded up by us/iraqi forces freed. thousands more await this, .... i wonder what their crime was ?... staying home protecting their family i would imagine.... look in to thier eyes, and see thier sincerity














http://english.aljazeera.net

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 9:29 AM. Reason : site]

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 9:37 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 9:28:40 AM

OMF THOSE EVIL AMERICANS LET THE INNOCENT GO TO RETURN TO THEIR FAMILIES

THOSE MONSTERS

11/3/2005 9:31:15 AM

Quote :

"^^ we have no idea. perhaps he had just beheaded six kids. perhaps he was walking his dog. we don't know."

You have to be a sick piece of shit to pose in front of a corpse, no matter whose. No, we don't know, you're right. Which is why I'll judge just what I see.

11/3/2005 9:52:13 AM

the 2nd one is from yahoo news.

11/3/2005 12:58:17 PM