Quote :

"but yeah, I mean we put a mjority of our energy infrastructure in one place, and not only is it all in one place, but it's in one place that should technically be covered in water, if nature has anything ot say about it"

Idiot. They didn't build the refineries in downtown NO. The refineries were hit with ABOVE sea-level flooding, wind damage, and power failure. Most of them reported negligible damage, but the power grid was devastated by wind.

Quote :

"in my scenario, we don't use gasoline."

So you are going to ban the use of gasoline? Or are you still clinging to the theory that we all should volunteer to give up this stuff? If that is the case, and you don't want to use gasoline anyway, then what are you complaining about? That a product you don't personally use is getting expensive?

That said, the vast majority of our refinning infrastructure is intact, safe in california, washington state, texas, Canada, Mexico, and elsewhere. A measily eight refineries were KO'd. Why, have you noticed fewer cars on the road than usual? Yesterday, I was trapped in 5:30 rush-hour traffic, so obviously gasoline is deathly scarce right now.

[Edited on September 2, 2005 at 10:12 AM. Reason : cor]

9/2/2005 10:10:10 AM

greece: and eventually became the small, but successful country it now is
rome: and it totally collapsed

Quote :

"So you are going to ban the use of gasoline? Or are you still clinging to the theory that we all should volunteer to give up this stuff? "

i should really just start ignoring you. you KNOW I don't advocate bans.

[Edited on September 2, 2005 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

9/2/2005 11:03:37 AM

Fine, so what do you care if gasoline is scarce now? You're not using it. Or, at least, you shouldn't be judging from your advocation. If the rest of us choose to use gasoline, you're not going to stop us, we're only shooting ourselves in the foot.

BTW, how is it going getting through life as you advocate? Not using gasoline, not using centralized electricity, etc. etc.?

Do you not see what it is I am getting at? As long as your ideal world is without bans and heavy handed government intervention, your ideal world will look and act exactly like our real world. Decentralized infrastructure gets under-bid by centralized producers in the marketplace, just as it has done in the real world. People will go for the cost effective instead of the local, the asymetric knowledge of the marketplace makes them do it whether they want to or not.

[Edited on September 2, 2005 at 11:42 AM. Reason : simplify]

9/2/2005 11:41:22 AM

Quote :

"greece: and eventually became the small, but successful country it now is rome: and it totally collapsed"

To refrain from quibbling about history and detracting from the integrity of your thread I would like to point out that the legacy of Rome has been further reaching than that of Greece could have dreamed. And it didn't "totally collapse".

9/3/2005 8:11:20 AM

Well, you just did "quibble" about history. That impact you say is greater than greece is arguable, for instance democracy came from greece. Not to mention the brunt of philosophy of human kind. Plato, Aristotle, arithmatic formulas out the ying yang, etc, etc. Rome was just a war machine in comparison.

9/3/2005 7:28:19 PM

Quote :

"BTW, how is it going getting through life as you advocate? Not using gasoline, not using centralized electricity, etc. etc.?"

Lonesnark, I think getting through life would be a hell of a lot easier. The unprecedented volume of polution your v6's and v'8 pump out wouldn't be altering our climates for one. Not to mention, we wouldn't be trading with countries that we obviously shouldn't be involved with. Advancements in technologies would come with the new ways of powering our country such as better energy producing solar panels, the unlimited potential of hydrogen gas as a fuel would come to realization, and many other ways of harnessing energy as well. Also, the economy would rise due to the new jobs these fields would open. I think your holding on to this gasoline based economy a little too much. Decentralization does not mean we dismember all utilities such as your sprint's and general electric's, it means, primarily, finding something other than petro as a primary fuel to run America Lonesnark. Read these statements from the American Centrist Party with an open mind to get a better idea of what we're talking about. http://www.americancentristparty.com/pos-for-oil.htm
http://www.americancentristparty.com/pos-sci-ocean.htm

[Edited on September 3, 2005 at 7:54 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 3, 2005 at 7:55 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 3, 2005 at 7:56 PM. Reason : gramma]

9/3/2005 7:53:20 PM

Ying yang?

9/3/2005 8:12:26 PM

EXCUSE ME....
Wazoo, or is that too retro for you

9/3/2005 8:16:50 PM

supercalo, once again, you like him have missed the point. His world has my "v6's and v'8" and the resultant climate change, so you say. Because, my point being, that his world is without bans or governmental intervention. Hence, if his world and this world have the same rules and the same people occupying the same place, then the results MUST be the same. Because, and I stress this, he hasn't stated a single aspect of our society's rules he would change.

9/4/2005 12:00:21 AM