Quote :

"Off the top of my head: K, Roy, Boeheim, Bennett, Brey in the ACC alone. Sean Miller, Self, Izzo, Pitino, Calipari, Bo Ryan, Mark Few, Tom Crean, Chris Mack, Dana Altman, Billy Donovan, Gregg Marshall, John Beilein, Lon Kruger. So it is not under 10....but nice try. I've got at least 19 that have just as many."

Many of those coaches also missed the tourney in the last 5 years

5/10/2016 9:09:10 AM

Oh yeah, LSU. I must not have remembered since I was still mad that we had lost to Wofford 3 months earlier, so I couldn't even enjoy our tournament run.

5/10/2016 10:41:09 AM

^^So has Gott what is your point? He was trying to say only 10 coaches have 2 Sweet Sixteens in the last five years. When it is nearly 20.

5/10/2016 10:52:31 AM

Were not going to the tournamwnt most years tho. Its about to be a huge dropoff after next year now that the lowe talent buffer has worn off.

5/10/2016 10:56:36 AM

Quote :

"The plan was to find a good coach that had some staying-power, surround him with a good recruiting staff, and start laying the foundation for the changing-of-the-guard that is about to happen in the ACC. K, Roy, Pitino, and Boeheim won't be coaching for much longer. So we either continue to let Gott make us a stable top 25 program where we make the tournament most years, or we burn it to the ground and hope we somehow magically find some amazing coach that can lay his foundation before that coaching change happens."

Mark Gottfried is a long-term solution? I don't think that is what most of the fanbase thought now or when he was hired. I think he pretty much has done what we expected/wanted. Make us relevant and improve recruiting. We have seen his ceiling.

5/10/2016 11:05:22 AM

What's his ceiling? Beating 4 HOF coaches in the same year and nearly making the Elite 8? Or is an Elite 8 his ceiling since he did that with shitty Alabama basketball?

5/10/2016 11:19:02 AM

Yes I think Mark was the long-term solution.

He wasn't even 50 when we hired him. No reason to think he can't coach at NC State for 10 years if the results are in accordance.

Boeheim - 71
K - 69
Larranga - 66
Roy - 65
Pitino - 63
Brey - 57
Gott - 52
Bennett - 46

I do believe that Gott was looked at as an experienced guy an talented recruiter that could come in and get us back in business and have us trending the right way when these guys start retiring and have our program established to take the reins.

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 11:31 AM. Reason : .]

5/10/2016 11:31:13 AM

Quote :

"Were not going to the tournamwnt most years tho."

4/5 isn't most?

Quote :

"So has Gott what is your point? He was trying to say only 10 coaches have 2 Sweet Sixteens in the last five years. When it is nearly 20."

Point is most of those coaches have also missed the tourney and should therefore be close to being fired.

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 12:50 PM. Reason : Aaa]

5/10/2016 12:49:19 PM

my beef has always been Gottfried's inability to build a program. He had success with Lowe's players...great, and programs have off years, but the state of the program now doesn't look like it is in place to be successful in years ahead. that is my real beef with him

5/10/2016 12:52:46 PM

That's ridiculous, he lost a bunch of close games this past year because he was down two players, one superstar he wasn't expecting to lose, and didn't have the pieces to bring it all together.

If his team improves this year, and I think everyone agrees that it will have improved personnel overall (with DSJ being a big question mark), then he can very well have a successful season and make the tournament.

You guys are pretending he's had 5 shit years when he's had 1.

5/10/2016 1:06:51 PM

Quote :

"He had success with Lowe's players."

He had success with his own players too....

Before last year his record with Lowe's players was 48-24 (20-14), with his own players was 44-28 (19-17) with identical tourney records, not a huge difference. Even ACC tourney performances were very similar.

5/10/2016 1:32:35 PM

^^I guess I'm missing the impact of potential 1 and done players and new recruits for 2017, but what we will have the 2017-2018 season looks pretty bad right now. I guess I have to evolve my expectations with the current state of the game. Could be ok to have to throw a ton of minutes at underclassmen, or it could end up like last season.

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 2:10 PM. Reason : .]

5/10/2016 1:55:53 PM

As it stands now the roster isn't bad, if I'm correct something like Dorn/Henderson/Abu/Anya/Freeman/DSJ/Rowan/Kirk?

That isn't horrible if that ends up being the line-up, and Gott gets things in order. It would be nice to add 1 more functional body to that for some depth, a PG that could play some minutes and develop would be nice. Our class next year has to be a very strong 4-5 player class though. We'll probably lose DSJ and maybe Abu, then Anya/Freeman/Henderson seniors. A roster 2 years from now of Dorn, Rowan, Kirk is a bit scary. Last year's thin class, this year's potentially 1 player class leaving early, the twins leaving, is just concerning. Creates the feel that Gott is always scrapping together a roster last minute no matter how functional it ends up being.

5/10/2016 2:09:53 PM

2017 is
Dorn/Rowan/Kirk barring transfer from rowan or kirk

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 2:11 PM. Reason : .]

5/10/2016 2:11:05 PM

Just means in 2017 we'll have a TON of PT to offer and we'll be a young team.

Still think we add at least 2 more players in the 2016 class, and likely one of them will be a transfer that will have to sit next year.

5/10/2016 2:13:54 PM

Offering a ton of PT shouldn't be our sales pitch every year though.

I hope more work is done this year, but if not talking about 2017 needing to be one of our bigger and best classes in a long time or that roster could be pretty bad.

5/10/2016 2:19:25 PM

The Sweet 16s should have been a stepping stone to building a Top 25 program. Gott is not achieving that. Many of our non-revenue sports are Top 25 already. I hope Gott does not get an extension till he

1. Finishes top 3 in the ACC regular season(which most likely means 3.)
2. Gets a top 4 seed in the NCAAs
3. Posts a season with single digit losses

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 2:26 PM. Reason : ]

5/10/2016 2:23:51 PM

[Edited on May 10, 2016 at 3:41 PM. Reason : Wrong thread]

5/10/2016 3:38:42 PM

To the haters...

1. Still no answer as to who the hell we'd be able to hire that's better than Gott, and 2. Still a lot of crying about how we aren't magically better now than we were in 85/86.

We have enjoyed (by far) the best run of success we've had in almost 30 years, and you're calling for the coach's head after one bad season where he lost a star player no one expected would leave. It's the epitome of the ignorant attitude of a 12yo who just found out what it's like to have to play nintendo without a game genie.

What's worse, is you're all your own worst enemy.. You are the reason no one wants to take a job here. It's one thing to be passionate and to hold a coach accountable... it's a completely different thing to vehemently hate any coach who has the slightest of stumbles or shows any sign of imperfection.

5/11/2016 2:26:02 AM

The reason we'll never hire a good coach is because you people ran off Sendek after 5 straight NCAA appearances.

5/11/2016 3:34:04 AM

The haters will get their wish when the future mugshot from the inevitable DUI appears.

5/11/2016 7:01:04 AM

I just don't understand the whole "Gott can't build a team for sustained success!", I mean, what more do you really want?

We had a team built to run up the score on fools and we lost TJ Warren. You don't think a team with Cat, Lacey, and TJ would have been a favorite to win the ACC?? Warren was a lottery pick, no way was he coming back, literally nothing Gott can do about that. He lands a 5* player everyone wants, and the dude goes pro early, that's how things are suppose to work with 5* players(not like Harrow, Leslie, or Purvis).

So he has a nice season with the remaining pieces as Cat comes into his own, Abu starts showing promise down the stretch, and Trevor Lacey slides in and we don't have a huge drop-off from TJ.
Trevor Lacey tells our staff he's coming back for one more season, so the staff plans accordingly. After the season he tells the staff the SAME THING and they start working up his offseason workout program. Two weeks later he changes his mind and goes pro. How is Gott suppose to recover from that? Does he spend a scholarship on a 3* guy telling them they'll take over for Lacey after he leaves? No 4* or 5* player is going to come here to play 5-6 minutes each game behind our All-ACC player. So Lacey leaves, and we convince a 2016 5* player to reclassify to 2015(changes to 4*) and we land a solid player. Don't forget we have Henderson coming in to offset the loss.

So you're looking at a team in 2015 that was suppose to be Barber, Henderson, Lacey, Abu, and Freeman(then the Martins and Anya backing them up). That team would have been really strong in the ACC this past season. So on paper, Gott was poised to have a big season with veterans and talented kids around them. So even without Lacey, we have a solid team on paper, and our #2 scorer goes down the first game for the whole season. So we went from thin to very thin and had to play our freshman a ton of minutes(should pay off later).

We're not a premiere program in college basketball, we're not on the same level with Duke. They lose 4* and 5* transfers every season or two, the difference is they can recruit over their 4*/5* guys with more 4*/5* guys. We HAVE to be able to offer PT to get serious looks. We don't have a HoF coach with multiple rings recruiting for us. We're starting to get guys in the league and that's helping, esp. if Cat gets drafted, we'll have a nice run of 3 straight PGs to get drafted(after Smith Jr. goes high next year).

So Gott is getting us to the tournament, landing big-name recruits, and beating some highly ranked teams each year(save for 2015). One season doesn't derail a program.

5/11/2016 8:58:00 AM

Where's Trevor Lacey anyway? brb google

5/11/2016 9:19:00 AM

Henderson could technically get a medical redshirt and still be here in 2017 right? Is that something they're trying? I don't know that he would want to or anything if it's even possible

5/11/2016 9:44:49 AM

^i think it's technically possible, even if unlikely.

5/11/2016 9:47:17 AM

^^^

Quote :

"Professional career Lacey declared for the 2015 NBA draft prior to his senior season, forgoing his final year of eligibility.[4] He would go undrafted, later playing with the Cleveland Cavaliers in the Las Vegas Summer League during July 2015.[5] The same month, Lacey joined Italian Serie A side Consultinvest Pesaro.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Lacey

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 9:51 AM. Reason : ]]

5/11/2016 9:51:39 AM

man, they just let anybody have a wiki page now huh

5/11/2016 10:39:54 AM

Quote :

"1. Still no answer as to who the hell we'd be able to hire that's better than Gott, and 2. Still a lot of crying about how we aren't magically better now than we were in 85/86. "

1) I've made it clear for a while now Archie Miller should be #1 and given what he wants (Not sure it will ever happen, especially with Deb)

2) I think a lot of the fanbase is pissed that Herb was ran off to hire an even worse coach (Sid) and now we have one that is arguably not any better than what Herb did his last five years. Herb has been gone ten years and the program is not in better shape than when he left.

5/11/2016 1:41:07 PM

Quote :

"We had a team built to run up the score on fools and we lost TJ Warren. You don't think a team with Cat, Lacey, and TJ would have been a favorite to win the ACC??"

No, I don't, because we had an offensive juggernaut one year that was a Top 10 preaseason team that finished 4th in the conference and got an 8 seed

5/11/2016 1:44:12 PM

Quote :

"I think a lot of the fanbase is pissed that Herb was ran off to hire an even worse coach"

The fan base that ran off Herb is mad that he got ran off. Oh, and this happened, what 15 years ago?

Quote :

"now we have one that is arguably not any better than what Herb did his last five years."

By all quantitative measurements, Gott's last 5 years were better than Herbs last 5. There is no rational argument against this.

5/11/2016 1:52:29 PM

Quote :

"2) I think a lot of the fanbase is pissed that Herb was ran off to hire an even worse coach (Sid) "

not exactly. yes - everybody agrees that sid was awful and that era of state basketball was a dark one and very obviously a step in the wrong direction. but the plan was never "let's run off herb and hire a shitty coach". the hiring process and its lack of preparedness and leadership is 100% the fault of Lee Fowler. those two things (not liking Herb, and being disappointed in his replacement) are separate altogether.

Quote :

"By all quantitative measurements, Gott's last 5 years were better than Herbs last 5. There is no rational argument against this. "

this is not true. tournament results and recruiting rankings favor Gott's last 5 years. higher finish in ACC standings and ranking systems like KenPom favor Herb. either side can be argued, imo.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 1:54 PM. Reason : f]

5/11/2016 1:53:15 PM

Quote :

"By all quantitative measurements, Gott's last 5 years were better than Herbs last 5. There is no rational argument against this."

What? Herb finished 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 5th, and 4th in the ACC. 46-34 in the ACC.

Gott 4th, 4th, 7th, 6th, 13th. He is 44-44 in the ACC.

RPI and KenPom both favor Herb's five years. How could it not be rational???

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 2:01 PM. Reason : Clear numbers say you most certainly can]

5/11/2016 1:58:46 PM

Let's hang some Kenpom banners in the PNC since that's more important than post-season success.

5/11/2016 2:13:43 PM

Okay Herb had 5 NCAA wins to Gott's 4 unless you wanna count the First Four win over Xavier.

Herb played for an ACC Championship when JJ Redick went lights out. I'm not doing the numbers, but I feel sure Herb had a better ACCT run in those five as well.

Dude said it is completely irrational to compare them....

5/11/2016 2:17:26 PM

^^nah that's not i'm saying. but i think you can reasonably argue that gott's 5 years here are not significantly better (or worse) than herb's last 5 years. don't get me wrong, the 2 sweet 16s are great and were very fun and all that. but even gott's tournament success is only a little better than herb's. better, no doubt, but it's not like he's gotten to the elite 8 or final 4.

herb's tournament record at state is 5-5, advancing to the Sweet 16 once in 5 tries. losing in the first round one time.

gott's tournament record at state is 5-4, advancing to the Sweet 16 twice in 4 tries (definitely better, no argument about it). losing in the first round once....but also lost in the "round of 64" after winning play-in game one year. so kinda two first round losses, but only went 0-1 one year in the tourney.

and i'm not even tryna shit on gott...i like him.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 2:20 PM. Reason : f]

5/11/2016 2:19:39 PM

I just think, and I believe I've mentioned it before, that with advanced statistics people start to lose sight of what goals you want to actually accomplish. OBVIOUSLY I'd like us to do better in the regular season standings. But the goals of the regular season are to win the ACC tournament and make the NCAA tournament. Sure you'd have an easier path as a #1 or #2 seed, but you just want to make the tourney. Then once you start making it, you want to advance. I'll take being an 8 or 9 seed and making the Sweet 16 every other year to finishing top 4 in the conference, getting a high seed, and not making it out of the first weekend except once in a decade.

5/11/2016 2:29:16 PM

yeah i don't disagree with you. there are multiple ways to measure a "successful season" or "moving in the right direction" or whatever. mostly just arguing HCH's point that by all quantitative measures Gott has been better than Herb's last 5 seasons.

5/11/2016 3:07:18 PM

its not a choice between gott and another coach. its a decision based on if gott is the right person or not. herb being the wrong person does not make gott the right person. they aren't the only two coaches in the world.

5/11/2016 4:01:07 PM

The goal is to win the NCAA Championship. We all had our laughs about Villanova constantly choking as a 1/2/3 seed but they won the whole fucking thing this year

Does anyone seriously think one of Mark Gottfried's 11 seeds is going to win an NCAA Tournament?

5/11/2016 4:08:40 PM

Quote :

"Does anyone seriously think one of Mark Gottfried's 11 seeds is going to win an NCAA Tournament?"

5/11/2016 4:13:50 PM

I'm mixed on Gottfried. I can't hate the guy since he did pretty well his first four years - a big improvement over Lowe. This year could have turned out a lot different if Henderson didn't go down in the first ten minutes of the season. Ditto that times a million if Lacey had stayed, but we all agreed back then that it didn't make sense for him to.

I think he's a great recruiter but he may oversell kids to get them here, which is why we get the attrition. He sucks at coaching defense but maybe our new assistants can help with that. If not, I don't see him winning (or even getting top 3) in the ACC or getting past the S16 or maybe E8 in the NCAA anytime soon. He's good at getting talent and having a decent offense although I wish we'd do more with screens and and actually run plays rather than pass around the perimeter until the shot clock runs out and force a shot.

My main concerns are whether there's something bigger going on behind the scenes with the program and the fact that if we do fire him, we probably won't be able to do much better unless Debbie has an ace up her sleeve.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2016 4:28:37 PM

i agree with a lot of what you said

Quote :

"He sucks at coaching defense but maybe our new assistants can help with that. "

on this point = Lutz was supposedly a good X's and O's coach while Moxley and Early were the big time recruiters. i don't necessarily put a ton of stock into Lutz being some kind of mastermind like some of the fan base does. obviously Gott was (and is) running the show, and surely the assistants help him coach...but Gott is the head coach so i also don't put a ton of stock into the idea of assistants coming in a significantly changing much in the way of philosophy, strategy, style, etc. but if these new assistants help us in recruiting and we start landing even better talent, then that's where they can really make a difference imo. it's apparent that Gott doesn't give a shit about defense. i honestly don't believe his assistants are gonna change that significantly. but yeah, i pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

Quote :

"although I wish we'd do more with screens and and actually run plays rather than pass around the perimeter until the shot clock runs out and force a shot. "

and to this point...it's hard to judge the offense this past season. it was pretty much just the Cat Barber show. and a couple years ago it was just the TJW show. i think when there are multiple scorers the offensive philosophy changes and you see more strategy and less one on one stuff. think back to Gott's first couple of seasons with Zo, Howell, Wood, etc. or two years ago with Turner, Lacey, Cat...those were strong, consistent offenses.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 4:52 PM. Reason : f]

5/11/2016 4:50:17 PM

If it didnt make sense for lacey to play his sr year then it didnt make sense for him to transfer in the first place
. Why nott just go straight to Europe.

All of these bad decisions by players just support the long held beleif that he has horrible relationships with most of his players.

5/11/2016 5:23:39 PM

Bc he hadn't maxed out before his Jr year. If he couldn't get drafted after his phenomenal Jr year, it wasn't going to happen.

LOL "long held belief" (citation needed)

5/11/2016 5:28:19 PM

Quote :

"All of these bad decisions by players just support the long held beleif that he has horrible relationships with most of his players."

that horrible relationship dating all the way back to the Lacey/Alabama recruiting? That still lasting relationship that got Lacey here in the first place?

5/11/2016 5:57:08 PM

Lacey is the exception. Every other player hates his guts.

And I do wish we'd play much better defense. But in basketball, good offense will beat good defense most of the time, so I don't have an issue with us running an offensive-heavy system, especially if we have more weapons on the court than we did last year.

5/11/2016 6:24:19 PM

Anybody else remember that random interview with anya where he was asked "What's one thing your coach doesnt know about you?" He answered with "He doesn't know anything about me."


Thats always stuck in my head.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 6:58 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2016 6:57:56 PM

Quote :

"Every other player hates his guts."

so why do they come in the first place? Not defending him, but I will say it seems everyone is blowing their comments way out of proportion unless you have some reasoning otherwise?

Does NC State sell itself that easily? Do our star recruits get no other offers? Yes we have more attrition than anyone it seems, but someone has to be in last place...

5/11/2016 7:29:22 PM

Sorry, was being sarcastic, wasn't agreeing with Earl's long held belief that all the players hate him.

[Edited on May 11, 2016 at 7:45 PM. Reason : add another note]

5/11/2016 7:45:10 PM

Quote :

"so why do they come in the first place?"

He's a good salesman. Tells recruits what they want to hear. His pitch centers around flattering recruits, telling them that they are the 1 missing piece to a championship team.

Then when they get on campus they find out that they were sold a bill of goods, that he's bad at player development, can't coach defense and has outdated schemes. Not to mention that he clearly has personality clashes with some players.

Just look up his tenure at Alabama. It's the same shit. He got fans excited, convinced good recruits to play for him and built up a lot of hype in a short time. But they never quite played up to expectations and seemed to get outcoached regularly. He played very shallow rotations and underclassmen left, ostensibly for more playing time elsewhere. The wheels came off when his star player just quit basketball rather than play for him again.

Very reminiscent of the shocking attrition we see here. Rats jumping off a sinking ship.

[Edited on May 12, 2016 at 8:06 AM. Reason : 3]

5/12/2016 8:06:07 AM