Quote :

" I want more gun control, I’d like it to be regulated like owning and driving a vehicle with enforced insurance and excessive registration. But saying that the majority of gun violence is ignored by the majority of the population Is not “distracting” from the debate. Saying it distracts from the debate is awfully distracting tho. "

I think the point is, usually you’ll see conservatives spout off about “black on black crime” or “x number of people shot in Chicago this weekend, but you don’t hear liberals talking about that” are using it as a distraction from actually putting forth any policies to fix these issues. It’s done by conservatives to make gun control advocates look hypocritical. It’s generally just a bad faith argument when used in that context.

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 11:38 AM. Reason : G]

8/6/2019 11:37:08 AM

I think there’s a communication issue here.

I mentioned 4 people were shot a few miles from where I live. This news did not escape local news bc shootings perceived as “gang violence” do not receive coverage like racially charged shootings in a WalMart. I don’t find this to be a relatively controversial thing to say. Why something’s thinks this is happening obviously can be problematic.

The shootings near me and in Chicago as well as the recent mass shootings are issues that need to be addressed as one massive issue. Now the underlying issue for these shootings are different but gun control can impact both.

8/6/2019 11:55:46 AM

^^ correct. It's also a dumb distraction because mass shootings carried out by white male domestic terrorists are NOT the same type of gun violence as we see in rough parts of cities like Chicago, Baltimore, St Louis, etc which have a lot more to do with other factors like poverty, lack of education, mass incarceration, etc.

8/6/2019 11:58:27 AM

^^the people bringing up shootings in chicago aren't doing so because they have a genuine concern about shootings in chicago

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

8/6/2019 11:59:06 AM

Also, let's not ignore the reality that a lot of racist white people are happy to see high homicide counts in cities with high populations of black people. They bring it up almost gleefully at times.

A lot of white people would be happy to have restrictive gun control to prevent the mass shootings of their own, but it's pretty clear they see mass shootings in a much different light than they do gang violence. I've actually heard white folks say things like "well at least they're killing each other off in Baltimore/Chicago/Detroit/etc, so we may as well let them."



[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 12:06 PM. Reason : .]

8/6/2019 12:02:24 PM

I think we’re on the same page here.

8/6/2019 12:10:00 PM

And I'm pretty sure the media is reporting about the violence in chicago, just google "chicago violence"

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/43kg59/chicago-had-so-many-shootings-this-weekend-that-an-er-had-to-shut-its-doors

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/04/us/chicago-mount-sinai-hospital/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/us/chicago-violence-guns.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/05/el-paso-shooting-dayton-chicago-gun-violence-reporting-varies/1920237001/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/people-shot-gun-chicago-weekend_n_5d47baade4b0aca3411ffcb7

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chicago-mass-shootings-continue-lawndale-neighborhood-seven-dead-40-wounded-weekend/

8/6/2019 12:14:57 PM

They cover it, sure. But not a 24 hours a day, 3-5 days at a time news cycle like CNN does each time a mass shooting happens.

It's sad, but Americans are far more outraged by seemingly 'random' mass shootings that happen with alarming regularity than about entire communities that kill themselves on a more predictable basis.

One is a seemingly preventable tragedy (cue the mental illness excuse), one is an angry reminder of failed governance and lawlessness (essentially racism exposed).

8/6/2019 12:23:03 PM

I see TT's single post resulted in exactly what he intended.

8/6/2019 1:06:34 PM

https://www.wral.com/experts-mental-illness-not-main-driver-of-mass-shootings/18551971/

8/6/2019 1:11:54 PM

^^ he made 2 posts about chicago, his 1st was ignored

8/6/2019 1:43:47 PM

Meanwhile, people fear monger mass shootings despite the ridiculously low chances of them happening, while not giving a shit about the gun violence that happens every day. Mass shootings are a drop in the bucket when it comes to overall gun violence, but they are the most publicized and politicized by far.

8/6/2019 2:20:36 PM

what do you think should be done? how do you know that people who support gun control don't give a shit about gun violence that happens every day? i think you're wrong.

8/6/2019 2:26:02 PM

TT do you think the number of mass shootings has stayed the same since Columbine, gone up, or gone down?

8/6/2019 2:34:28 PM

How often are people bringing up gun control or gun legislation other than shortly after a mass shooting? Why do you think that's the case?

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ^dunno, probably increased]

8/6/2019 2:34:36 PM

So if they've increased, which btw they absolutely have, one might say the problem has gotten worse, no? If so, why hasn't anything changed?

8/6/2019 2:37:53 PM

Quote :

"How often are people bringing up gun control or gun legislation other than shortly after a mass shooting? Why do you think that's the case?"

Well of course it gets louder after a bunch of people are killed by a nut with a gun. That doesn't mean they don't care about inner-city gun violence. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. Do you even have a point? What do you think should be done? Would you be happy if the media talked about gun control constantly, even if there hadn't been a mass shooting in a month? (which btw, doesn't happen, there's an average of more than one a day in 2019)

8/6/2019 2:42:27 PM

Quote :

"It's sad, but Americans are far more outraged by seemingly 'random' mass shootings that happen with alarming regularity than about entire communities that kill themselves on a more predictable basis. "

I think it’s more that we all agree that gang violence of opioid deaths are a tragedy and huge amounts of resources and times are spent trying to solve these problems including localized gun bans.

But for guns we can watch an elementary class get killed execution style, and not only do we do nothing, we disagree if something should be done, and we even pass laws granting special privileges for gun manufacturers so they can’t be sued, and some places are further relaxing gun restrictions.

Unlike gang violence and other crimes, mass shootings are the only issue where an incident causes half the country to support politicians that make policy to create more crime.

This is the main reason you see so much reporting on mass shootings.

8/6/2019 2:58:53 PM

So TT is basically doing the “but what about black on black crime?!?” thing.

8/6/2019 4:10:55 PM

Not basically, is

8/6/2019 4:24:22 PM

but what about Chicago?!?!?!

8/6/2019 5:00:47 PM

when did i ever mention race? it's at best ignorant that people care so much about the 2% of gun violence from mass shootings, but are quiet as mice during the other 98% (even though much of that is suicide). The same people that will be quick to point out how rare it is for a terrorist attack to take place, want to act like mass shootings are the main problem when it comes to gun violence.

8/6/2019 5:18:13 PM

are you incapable of caring about both?

8/6/2019 5:20:18 PM

I like how I'm the bad guy for trying to point out that the majority of gun violence doesn't register on most people's radar

8/6/2019 5:22:18 PM

All that violence in the no go zones you learned about on fox

8/6/2019 5:42:37 PM

Quote :

"when did i ever mention race?"

I’m not saying you did.

I’m equating what you’re currently doing to what others say when there’s an outcry about, say, a cop killing a black person and lazy conservatives say “oh you get all upset about this but nobody’s out protesting black on black crime?!?” I realize you didn’t explicitly mention race...I’m just equating it to that argument.

8/6/2019 5:49:53 PM

^^https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-minorities-insight/in-poor-new-york-neighborhoods-residents-ask-where-are-the-police-idUSKBN0KI27320150109

after a couple police shootings, police presence all but disappeared for a few weeks. damn that right-wing reuters.

^I'm not trying to shit on anyone for being appalled and upset about a mass shooting. I just think it's hypocritical when people get gung ho about gun control after the rare occurrence of a mass shooting, while seemingly ignoring the vast majority of gun violence the rest of the time


[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 6:38 PM. Reason : .]

8/6/2019 6:25:32 PM

Quote :

"the rare occurrence of a mass shooting"

Get back to us when there are more terrorist attacks than there are days in the year.

8/6/2019 7:03:28 PM

^^ that recently-googled article does nothing to support your claim of no-go zones for cops

8/6/2019 7:09:20 PM

my comment about cops being afraid to go into certain neighborhoods at certain times of day was in response to JHC's post that 100% of gun rights benefit white people and systemic racism

^^hell, the majority of mass shootings don't even get publicity. If 4 people who know each other have an argument and shoot each other, that's considered a mass shooting by the definition, but barely gets any air-time unless it's at a school or shopping mall.

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 7:21 PM. Reason : .]

8/6/2019 7:17:21 PM

Quote :

"^I'm not trying to shit on anyone for being appalled and upset about a mass shooting. I just think it's hypocritical when people get gung ho about gun control after the rare occurrence of a mass shooting, while seemingly ignoring the vast majority of gun violence the rest of the time"

Critics of gun laws are louder and more outspoken after a mass shooting than they are every other day of the year. That doesn’t seem shocking to me.

It’s not an issue that is only debated after mass shooting events. I think it’s a pretty hot button issue in general - it’s obviously magnified after mass shootings though.

8/6/2019 7:18:10 PM

Quote :

"Get back to us when there are more terrorist attacks than there are days in the year."

When I, and I think a lot of people, think of a "mass shooting" I think of situations like this weekend, where a crazy person(s) goes and tries to basically inflict as much carnage as they can, indiscriminately. Where someone goes into a public place and just starts shooting. Those are especially scary because there often isn't much rhyme or reason as to why they're doing it, other than not being right in the head. It doesn't matter what you're doing, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you could end up dead.

But the definition of a mass shooting is an incident where at least 4 people are shot. No one has to even die to fit the definition, but at least 4 people have to be shot. The majority of mass shootings, by this definition, are things like armed robberies gone wrong, home invasions gone wrong, a guy decides he's going to kill his cheating girlfriend and her new boyfriend and it turns out they had friends over at the house. The majority of these mass shootings, just like the majority of "non mass shootings", occur where the shooter(s) know the victim(s). Most of the time, if you haven't pissed anyone off or stolen from anyone, you usually don't have to worry about being a victim of this.

So yes, while there have technically been more mass shootings than days in the year, it's a very rare occurrence that someone just indiscriminately starts shooting up a place, which is what most people think of when they think of a "mass shooting."

8/6/2019 7:53:56 PM

Quote :

"it's a very rare occurrence that someone just indiscriminately starts shooting up a place, "

It happened 3 times in a 7 day span last week.

It’s rarer than other gun violence. But I wouldn’t call it rare.

8/6/2019 7:58:57 PM

Last week was especially bad, no doubt, but most weeks aren't anywhere near that.

And for comparison, there have been 248 mass shootings in the US this year, according to the "at least 4 people are shot" definition.

Of those 248 mass shootings, 129 of them resulted in 0 deaths and 68 of them resulted in "only" 1 death. So nearly 80% of mass shootings result in 0 or 1 deaths. 3 of the 248 resulted in double digit deaths, and 2 of those 3 happened to occur last week

So the notion that there have been more mass shootings than days in the year so far is technically true, it's also a bit of fear mongering, at least based on what I think most people think of when they hear the term "mass shooting."

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 8:09 PM. Reason : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019]

8/6/2019 8:09:02 PM

So I know nobody gives a shit on TWW, but nobody gives a shit nationally, either. Congrats to Oakland for not being Baltimore is the common refrain.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/jun/03/gun-violence-bay-area-drop-30-percent-why-investigation

TL; DR

Oakland's murder rate has basically been cut in half over the past few years, and nobody cares-- even people who live here.

There's a real big problem in the US with seeing not being able to view gun violence as a universally undesirable problem. If there's a hierarchy to it, which there totally is, mass shootings get tons of coverage/hysteria, while urban crime is seen as quite a different problem. In the end, the causes of gun violence may be very different, but the result is basically the same.

The fact that TTYL pivots from mass shootings while pointing to black on black crime in inner cities isn't at all surprising. In fact, it's probably how most Americans feel about the issue.

Clearly, it's a systemic problem and potential solutions would require widespread and collective changes, but nobody even wants to admit that the problems of mass shootings and gang violence are actually more similar than they are different.



[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 8:42 PM. Reason : calling mass shooting coverage "fear mongering" proves my point]

8/6/2019 8:40:13 PM

Mass shooting coverage isn't fear mongering. But lumping in a bunch of criminals shooting each other one night as the exact same thing as some lunatic going ham in a walmart is absolutely disingenuous.

8/6/2019 9:04:15 PM

Quote :

"But lumping in a bunch of criminals shooting each other one night as the exact same thing as some lunatic going ham in a walmart is absolutely disingenuous"

8/6/2019 9:31:03 PM

I’m glad TT exposed the issue in his dumb brainhole.

11 people shot/1 killed in Brownsville Brooklyn at a day time festival similar to Gilfords. The target happen to be a Blood (who died) who recently got out of jail while innocent people (10+) were shot. It seems everyone is a criminal when you’re shot in a shitty neighborhood?

Also that article TT posted is 4 years old and the area in question is one I’m in regularly. You’d be hard pressed to find a 1bed cheaper than $1500/month and it’s hardly a NOGO Zone.

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 10:09 PM. Reason : Zones]

8/6/2019 10:06:09 PM

10 innocent people being shot in one situation is one of the rare instances that not only fits the definition of a mass shooting, but also what people think of when they hear the term. But that is not indicative of the majority of "mass shootings"

8/6/2019 10:16:22 PM

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/1-dead-4-wounded-brooklyn-hookah-lounge-shooting-nypd-article-1.2340218

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-metro-man-shot-groin-brooklyn-20180903-story.html

https://pix11.com/2017/10/27/2-women-shot-in-crown-heights-brooklyn/

https://gothamist.com/2019/06/21/crown_heights_shooting.php

These are just ones near me I remember off the top of my head.

8/6/2019 10:26:38 PM

Innocent people getting hurt or killed is the worst. But I don't believe the majority of shooting victims, who live or who die, are innocent bystanders.

8/6/2019 10:31:39 PM

Well. I disagree.

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 10:41 PM. Reason : Unless you have a weird Marxist view of innocence. ]

8/6/2019 10:39:40 PM

I mean most people who get shot are intended targets, not innocent bystanders. whether or not the target did anything to increase the odds of getting shot at

a guy who runs a convenient store and gets shot during a robbery is probably innocent, but it probably wasn't an errant bullet that hit him so i wouldn't call him a bystander

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 10:53 PM. Reason : .]

8/6/2019 10:50:49 PM

Quote :

"I’m glad TT exposed the issue in his dumb brainhole"

It's called trolling, but he'd probably try and apply a more nuanced term than that.

8/6/2019 10:59:21 PM

Quote :

"But I don't believe the majority of shooting victims, who live or who die, are innocent bystanders"

Is factually true, but nobody is making the counterargument.

8/6/2019 10:59:59 PM

I was clarifying my previous post to DentalDamn since he seemed to misconstrue my use of innocent/bystander. Neither of us needed you to come in and moderate our civil conversation.

8/6/2019 11:00:58 PM

Quote :

"The majority of mass shootings, by this definition, are things like armed robberies gone wrong, home invasions gone wrong, a guy decides he's going to kill his cheating girlfriend and her new boyfriend and it turns out they had friends over at the house."

I don't think that a victim needs to be killed in order for a shooting to be considered a mass shooting.

If a botched armed robbery at a bank results in multiple people being shot and injured, that's a mass shooting. If a family is sitting at home alone, and a botched burglary results in multiple people being shot and injured, that's a mass shooting. If a group of friends are hanging out at someone's house, and a jilted lover arrives and shoots and injures multiple people, that's a mass shooting. If a disgruntled employee shows up to work and shoots and injures multiple colleagues, that's a mass shooting.

They may not involve a shooter's manifesto or ideological intent, but I would still consider them mass shootings.

To your point comparing mass shootings and acts of terrorism, I agree that mass-casualty mass shootings occur at a similar frequency, and I would mostly consider them acts of terrorism, as well.

[Edited on August 6, 2019 at 11:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/6/2019 11:06:57 PM

I'd consider them acts of terrorism as well. And objectively they're much worse than the botched robbery, etc scenarios.

I think maybe if the news called the couple recent big shootings "mass killings" or something, which would be maybe the 3rd this year in the US, depending on what the definition of "mass killing" was, that would be more honest journalism and wouldn't lump a 20+ casualty shooting in the same group as inter-family murder suicide or a drug deal gone wrong.

8/6/2019 11:15:15 PM

Quote :

"Neither of us needed you to come in and moderate our civil conversation."

Ain't no moderation happening here boss.

8/6/2019 11:15:49 PM

Quote :

"^^https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-minorities-insight/in-poor-new-york-neighborhoods-residents-ask-where-are-the-police-idUSKBN0KI27320150109 after a couple police shootings, police presence all but disappeared for a few weeks. damn that right-wing reuters."

you claimed the cops are too afraid but posted a link about them stopping their broken windows occupation

it's okay, i know you heard about it on fox news

8/7/2019 9:17:18 AM