Ok so it appears to be a bug in XBMC. You just can't really do DTS + 24p without running into sync issues. More reading:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=80247&pid=1122081#pid1122081

Who in here actually runs XBMC and knows enough to have run into this issue?

Quote :

""Why not just run your display @ 120hz? Then you don't have to worry about pulldown or material switching. Even mid-range tv's are 120hz or higher these days.""

Also Noen

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=125181

If you want a pretty straight to the point explanation why HDTVs that advertise "120hz" or "240hz" don't really accept those frequencies just artificially create them (unless it's 3D).

A 120hz computer monitor is really the only way to display true 120hz (with the exception of 3D Bluray content on HDTVs).

You just can't get higher than 60hz with HDMI. The bandwidth is there but it's not really a standard because computers are the only thing that really output higher than 60hz.

Even the new HDMI 1.4a spec for 4k resolution still only goes up to 24hz.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason : So right now displayport and dual link DVI are the only way to get 120hz.]

6/7/2012 11:19:56 AM

The reason to have a 120Hz display (or 240 for 3D) is because it's the lowest common denominator of 24Hz (movies) and 60Hz (TV.) When receiving a 60Hz signal it can double each frame, and when receiving a 24Hz signal it can quintuple each frame. If, however, you send a 24Hz signal to a 60Hz TV, it can't keep the same relative frame rate because 60/24=2.5. So basically, you don't need to send a signal greater than 60Hz (or 120 for 3D,) you only need for the signal to divide evenly into the display's refresh rate.

I'm not an expert, but this is the explanation I've long accepted.

6/7/2012 12:21:46 PM

Yeah I didn't think about that. You don't really NEED to send a 120hz signal to an HDTV to get 120hz because it's just duplicating the frames anyway.

I guess the only reason you would NEED to send a true 120hz signal to an HDTV is for gaming in which case you'd have to use a true 120hz computer monitor.

I think the point is when you hook up a computer to an HDTV the max you can set the OS to is 60hz so you get dropped frames. It's maybe possible to force the TV do take the computers 60hz and convert it to 120hz or something.

I can set my HDTV to 24hz and it displays 24hz movies perfectly. It just switches back and forth between 24hz and 60hz when needed.

6/7/2012 12:35:55 PM

^ You CAN go over 60hz with HDMI. You get 8.16gbit/sec of bandwidth over HDMI 1.4a

HDMI 1.4a officially supports 2560x1600@75hz (@24bpp). 1920x1080@120hz(@24bpp) is well under that ceiling. I've personally pushed LCD's to 85hz via HDMI @ 1080p with no problems whatsoever.

I was just suggesting an alternative solution to your issue. Yes, this should be entirely solvable in software, by setting the refresh rate on content switches. There will be a delay every time you do this as your TV/Monitor swaps, but it sounds like a price you're willing to pay.

Alternatively, if you have an HDTV with DisplayPort or Dual Link DVI, those will absolutely work.

And again, the "need" for 120hz is exactly what Dakota said. It gives you a common divisor so that 24p content can be played back "true" as will 30p and 60p content without having to do any hardware switching or software pulldown processing.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 2:00 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2012 1:58:12 PM

I said you could do 60hz over HDMI.

Quote :

"I've personally pushed LCD's to 85hz via HDMI @ 1080p with no problems whatsoever."

Just for fun? My computer LCDs running at 120hz via DVI @ 1080p.

Quote :

"Yes, this should be entirely solvable in software, by setting the refresh rate on content switches. There will be a delay every time you do this as your TV/Monitor swaps, but it sounds like a price you're willing to pay."

Correct, right now software switches the display to match the content.

Quote :

"Alternatively, if you have an HDTV with DisplayPort or Dual Link DVI, those will absolutely work."

Don't think HDTVs have those. Only monitors.

Quote :

"And again, the "need" for 120hz is exactly what Dakota said. It gives you a common divisor so that 24p content can be played back "true" as will 30p and 60p content without having to do any hardware switching or software pulldown processing."

Yes but my problem is currently you can only do 60hz over HDMI from a computer. So the solution is to switch to 24hz. I don't think you can tell the HDTV to take the 60hz from the computer and do 120hz correctly when playing a 24hz file. (so 24hz movie playing through a 60hz input to a tv trying to play it at 120hz...)

Is there an advantage of 120hz over 24hz? Aren't you seeing 5 frames for every true frame if you're viewing it at 120hz. Wouldn't that look different than just watching it at 24hz? aka the smooth motion effect? Wouldn't the only advantage be your tv doesn't swap refresh rates every time you switch between content?

6/7/2012 2:17:41 PM

Quote :

"Yes but my problem is currently you can only do 60hz over HDMI from a computer. So the solution is to switch to 24hz. I don't think you can tell the HDTV to take the 60hz from the computer and do 120hz correctly when playing a 24hz file. (so 24hz movie playing through a 60hz input to a tv trying to play it at 120hz...)"

You just completely ignored my last post. YOU CAN GO OVER 60HZ OVER HDMI.

I have personally done 85hz ON A LCD TV OVER HDMI. The specs allow for it, it's a matter of bpp, cable and tv support. If you have a 1.4a compliant TV and cable, you should be able to manually set 120hz@1080p@24bpp.

Quote :

"Is there an advantage of 120hz over 24hz? Aren't you seeing 5 frames for every true frame if you're viewing it at 120hz. Wouldn't that look different than just watching it at 24hz? aka the smooth motion effect? Wouldn't the only advantage be your tv doesn't swap refresh rates every time you switch between content?"

Think about what you're saying. Yes you are seeing 5 frames for every true frame. Which is EXACTLY the same as seeing 1 frame for 5 times as long. No that is not the "smooth motion" effect, "smooth motion" is secondary processing that attempts to "fill" subframes. Yes the advantage is that you're tv doesn't have to swap refresh rates AND that your computer doesn't have to detect or deal with content having different refresh rates.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 2:43 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2012 2:41:01 PM

Just for my knowledge. Does anyone know why we are using HDMI when displayport is a better standard that carries more bandwidth? I am guessing its because HDMI has more market penetration and not wanting to change plugs on the average consumer again.

6/7/2012 2:58:34 PM

Quote :

"You just completely ignored my last post. YOU CAN GO OVER 60HZ OVER HDMI."

I didn't think you can do it. I'm not saying you didn't I'm simply saying I can't find anywhere online that suggests you can do it.

http://3dvision-blog.com/1731-hdmi-1-4a-specifications-with-updated-stereoscopic-3d-support/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

No where in there does it say HDMI 1.4a supports 1080p @120hz.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1092386/why-cant-hdmi-support-real-120hz

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/90

So current HDMI spec for Blurays doesn't even go above 24p for 1080? All this hype is over 1080/60p per eye for 3D which translates to 120hz signal from a GPU or AVR. So this suggests that receivers are just now coming out that are capable of it.

Quote :

"Most of the displays today do what we want, it is just a matter of getting the data to the display. Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort can drive a display with that bandwidth requirement right now. Current HDMI seems to be capped at 155Mhz or so (this is from my real world tests) 1080P @120Hz needs 285Mhz of bandwidth. The new 300Mhz chips would fill that need. I agree that they aren't just making those chips for no reason, they are going to find their way into displays and displays are going to start supporting 1080P 3D @ 60Hz per eye."

Quote :

"Think about what you're saying. Yes you are seeing 5 frames for every true frame. Which is EXACTLY the same as seeing 1 frame for 5 times as long. "

I understand what you're saying now. I think I was confusing myself. Because of how LCD technology works the frame isn't actually "blinking" 5 times it's just sitting there. So it's essentially the exact same.

Now if you had a CRT at 120hz playing a 24hz signal it would actually refresh the frame 5 times rather than remaining static. I know that's a silly analogy but that's just interlaced versus progressive scan...right?

Quote :

"I have personally done 85hz ON A LCD TV OVER HDMI. The specs allow for it, it's a matter of bpp, cable and tv support."

So after what I've read I'd have to say no the specs actually don't allow for 120hz 1080p over HDMI 1.4a.

http://forums.us.ncix.com/forums/topic.php?id=2469243

Actually at this point I don't know. I can't find anyone online who's actually done it w/ 1.4a.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 3:24 PM. Reason : s]

6/7/2012 3:07:45 PM

HDMI 1.4a increases bandwidth to a 340mhz cap. Which is why it's possible. Again it may not work on every set, but it IS possible.

Quote :

"Now if you had a CRT at 120hz playing a 24hz signal it would actually refresh the frame 5 times rather than remaining static. I know that's a silly analogy but that's just interlaced versus progressive scan...right?"

It would be the same on a CRT if you disabled v-sync, because the crt would tear the updated frames resulting in the same effective no-refresh. This wouldnt matter for interlaced vs. progressive either.

Quote :

"So after what I've read I'd have to say no the specs actually don't allow for 120hz 1080p over HDMI 1.4a. "

Yes, they do. The resolution cap for 1.4a is 4096×2160 and the bandwidth cap is 8.16 gBit/sec. There are "accepted" frame rates (24hz, 30hz, 50hz, 60hz and 75hz) but there is no cap or set intervals for these. If your TV's processing unit can handle arbitrary refresh rates (like 55hz for instance) then your only limitation for setting a higher frame rate is the bandwidth cap of the cable and processing unit.

I've seen many folks who are running 1080p over hdmi at 100hz+.

6/7/2012 3:31:09 PM

Ok you're right. I just wasn't convinced because I kept running into people who tried to run the 3D computer monitors over HDMI 1.4a and had to switch to display port or dual link DVI because the video card didn't want to run 120hz over HDMI.

Well I can't get it to work. I'll have to double check that my cable is 1.4a. If I could get this working it would eliminate the refresh rate switching and dropped frames I got from running at 60hz.

Ok how about this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/352211-33-radeon-6970-1080p-running-120hz

Quote :

"The TV itself may refresh at 120Hz, but it isn't capable of accepting a 120Hz signal via HDMI. This is a limitation of the HDMI chip that is being used. Chips with the requisite speed to support 1080p120 or even formats like frame packed 1080p60 for 3D content (60 fps per eye) were only released recently and are only beginning to trickle into hardware. For example, here is a press release for a 300Mhz chip that was introduced in May 2011 - as you can imagine it takes time for such technology to become commonplace. http://www.siliconimage.com/news/r [...] spx?id=647 Your video card is the second limitation. The Radeon 7970 was the first video card to support such formats over HDMI."

http://www.siliconimage.com/news/releasedetails.aspx?id=647

So the actual chip in my GPU doesn't support 120hz over HDMI only dual link or display port? But to your point it's possible...

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 3:41 PM. Reason : s]

6/7/2012 3:35:44 PM

AFAIK, there's no such thing as a true-120Hz LCD HDTV on the market, only true-120Hz monitors.

120Hz LCD's as currently marketed are merely 60Hzx2, they reduce jitter and frame drops from 24fps sources.

There's no LCD HDTV that currently accepts anything above a 60Hz signal, so this is a moot point. With 120Hz HDTV you should not notice jitter or frame drops even though it's not a true-120Hz source, it doesn't have to be.

Doesn't matter if it's possible or not over HDMI as no current LCD HDTV is true-120Hz input, so whether or not your computer is outputting >60Hz, it's not being used by the HDTV, only up to 60Hz.

And the latest HDMI standard is 1.4a which is 340 MHz of bandwidth which is plenty to handle more than 60Hz, it's just whether or not the HDTV/Monitor can handle it.

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 3:57 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2012 3:41:45 PM

^^ and ^ agreed. It's a limitation of the chips, not the cable or the medium or the standards.

but ^ is not quite right. Like I said, I've actually pushed beyond 60hz on an LCD TV. It is possible (though I only went to 85hz and that was the limit for me before it just stopped working).

Sounds like the software refresh switching is going to be your best bet Neo. Good resources you found about the 1.4a compliant hardware just now starting to trickle on the market.

6/7/2012 3:53:24 PM

Hey Noen, how did you push your TV (and which TV) to above 60 Hz? I know you can push the content to it, but to hack/modify your TV's native refresh rate is something requiring reprogramming the chip isn't it?

[Edited on June 7, 2012 at 4:00 PM. Reason : ,]

6/7/2012 3:59:28 PM

If only my HDTV had dual link DVI or displayport. No wonder I get smooth video playback on my 120hz computer monitor.

Going to stick with switching between 24, 30, and 60hz.

6/7/2012 4:39:27 PM

^^Well fucksticks. My Samsung 7xxx series plasma (the 6xx series LCD TV's have exactly the same processing internals) only supports it up to 1440x900 (I must have been @1280x720 and not realized it). So I guess it wasn't at 1080p after all

Samsung is one of the few manufacturers that seem to still process all input through the same circuitry (IE: VGA, HDMI, DVI all support the same resolution and frequency ranges). My Panasonic tv only supports VGA up to 1366x768 even though it's a 1080p panel.

Maybe that's why my Samsung set allows me to choose arbitrary refresh rates (and to go above the listed specs)? I'll goof around with it a bit more this weekend and see what happens.

6/7/2012 6:13:45 PM

Yeah I can get up to 75hz with my Samsung HDTV.

6/7/2012 6:30:05 PM

so not high enough to actually benefit than I take it.

6/7/2012 6:56:11 PM

SiliconDust HDHomerun Prime 3x cable card tuner is on sellout.woot.com today for $129. Hella good deal for anyone looking. I love mine

7/10/2012 11:27:24 AM

So I'm building a small form factor HTPC for my friend. What does everyone think?

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=17288711

Was going to go micro but couldn't find any good micro cases with lots of drive bays for expansion. This LIAN LI fits 6!

Thinking the Intel HD 3000 on the i3 will be plenty for video playback.

Also getting a Logitech Harmony 650 ($58) to be used with the IR/USB receiver.

7/10/2012 11:28:23 AM

I prefer the AMD apus over the i3 for an htpc. But your wish list looks good to me

7/10/2012 12:30:18 PM

I was considering AMD because the graphics do win over the Intel HD 3000 solution but the i3's still take a heavy lead in processor intense tasks and this will be used for a variety of server software as well (encoding etc). Intel 3000 is plenty for h.264 or Bluray playback and if he wants to game or anything more graphically intensive he can always throw in a pci-e card for cheap that blows either solution of the water. If I went with AMD now I'd be stuck with the CPU and motherboard.

7/10/2012 12:36:22 PM

I might get a blueray drive instead of the dvd drive.

What HTPC software is he going to use? WMC/XBMC/PLEX

7/11/2012 11:30:55 AM

He's going to use XBMC which plays Blurays just fine but his sound system is built into the Bluray player so that's got to stay anyway.

7/11/2012 11:45:31 AM

Western Digital now has Red drives (2Tb is $129.99). I think it will be a better harddrive for a HTPC for always on access. Which typically eliminates the WD Green drives from anything but storage purposes. Its also only $10 more dollars for an extra terabyte storage over the 1Tb Black editions.

Quote :

" From this review http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_red_nas_hard_drive_review_wd30efrx "The obvious question may be then, what's wrong with the WD Greens and other low power drives that have been performing NAS duty to this point? The answer is really about projected use. The WD Green for instance, while the leading low power drive on the market, wasn't designed for the 24x7 access requirements that NAS systems require. The WD Red was engineered specifically for this duty, complete with customized NASware firmware which includes critical features like intelligent error recovery controls that prevent drives from dropping off the RAID due to long recovery cycles. The drives also are engineered with "3D Active Balance technology" which tunes the drive to eliminate vibration leading to improved reliability and overall performance. WD has also gone to great lengths to ensure a great user experience. They've worked with Synology, QNAP and other NAS providers to make sure the WD Red was qualified as competible with these popular systems and host chipsets. The drives also offer a good blend of performance and power consumption, which is key given the always on nature of NAS drives. For that little extra push on the performance side, the drives feature a 64MB cache that's been migrated from DDR to DDR2, which should be twice as fast." "

7/11/2012 8:29:17 PM

Yeah might do 2TB one.

7/12/2012 3:21:08 PM

So I'd like to setup a mini/booksize system to hook up to my TV (via HDMI).

In general I just want something to store video files on to watch on TV, as well as be able to browse the internets on my TV via wireless keyboard/mouse.

So first I need the box. I don't know much about these types of computers so I'm hoping you all can provide some recommendations and things I need to be considering. I'm thinking about going the barebone route, mostly so I can pick my own HHD (but I'm open to whatever).

This one looks pretty good: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119070

What other computers should I be considering? I'm somewhat interested in having one with room for two drives, but that's not the highest priority.

7/14/2012 3:47:12 PM

You'll get your kid a $15-20k car but want to cheap out on an HTPC?

[Edited on July 14, 2012 at 9:34 PM. Reason : s]

7/14/2012 9:33:23 PM

If you're looking for all in ones and don't want to build your own:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nettop-performance-review,3211.html

Otherwise mini-itx motherboards with a case like this is great:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112265

I prefer an i3 or i5 other an Atom or AMD solution. Especially if you want to run other stuff. Those mini cases have 6 HDD bays.

7/14/2012 10:08:09 PM

Anyone mess with getting Netflix to work nicely with a remote?

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=129091

Works with XBMC Flix (Netflix plug-in for XBMC) or stand alone. Going to give it a shot later. It basically maps keystrokes to work with the Netflix Silverlight app so you can assign the keystrokes to a remote.

7/23/2012 2:49:56 PM

^ i bought this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UE52ME/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00 a few weeks ago to use with my living room htpc+tv. works great for navigating either the win8 netflix app or just netflix in the browser. even my 4 year old uses it.

1/17/2013 12:59:21 PM

i want to upgrade my htpc hardware (it's 4 years old now )

i want something about the size of a mac mini. i'm hoping there's a cheaper PC equivalent, but i'm ok with getting an actual mac mini too. i'm ok with building my own with a mini-atx or something, but seems like most of the cases are still pretty big. would be great if i could get something with slot-loading dvd like the mac mini had.

suggestions?

1/17/2013 1:04:37 PM

what are you using it for? for 90% of what an HTPC does a simple combination of a network-based Blu-ray player & set-top box (Roku/WDTV/AppleTV) does just fine for <$150. Add a network-based TV tuner like HDHomeRun for $90 and you can record from any desktop on the network and play the recording on your TV via the set-top box.

heck a lot of times i just plug in my tablet via HDMI in on my TV and i can browse, game, view movies, pictures, etc.

[Edited on January 17, 2013 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2013 2:17:08 PM

Yeah but XBMC running on a fast computer makes any integrated device look/feel like poop. It's not only about functionality it's about ease and speed of use.

1/17/2013 2:24:28 PM

Nothing a Logitech Harmony can't handle when it comes to speed and ease of use.

But like I asked it depends entirely on what you use it for.

[Edited on January 17, 2013 at 2:43 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2013 2:42:23 PM

I love my XBMC setup. I have everything automated now, and I can start anything from my iphone app which is free.

I know Plex is cool, but it's smartphone app is 5 bucks.

I have spent ZERO on my XBMC setup, and it's fucking amazing.

1/17/2013 4:07:45 PM

Finally perfected my 24p playback. For some reason the latest stable version of XBMC (Eden 11.0) still doesn't do 24p correctly. If you vync the video the audio/video is always off by about ~250ms (if you're not syncing playback to display at 60hz - so playing naively at 24p).

Set a 250ms offset in the advanced settings and it plays 24p content butter smooth now. Now when I watch anything at 60hz with the pulldown I notice it really badly though.

1/17/2013 4:15:46 PM

Quote :

"what are you using it for?"

storage for home videos/photos, a couple dozen ripped movies, backups for other computers in the house. i particularly want this stuff to be accessible to other devices in the house (via plex server or even regular network share is fine)
connecting it to the living room tv to watch ^ripped movies, netflix, playing DVDs and listening to mp3s/last.fm/pandora
occasionally web browsing

[Edited on January 17, 2013 at 6:25 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2013 6:25:12 PM

anyone looking for a SFF htc, I must recommend this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16859107052

I'm using it for SAN/NAS in my house, but if I used cable or OTA this would fit the bill as well.

1/17/2013 8:40:38 PM

i'm on the lookout for 2010 mac minis on ebay (they stopped included DVD drives in 2011 and unfortunately i still need dvd for my kids' movies), they are going for about $500

the best mac mini alternative i can find is hp compaq 8300 ultra-slim which is a bit bigger than the mac mini (10"x10"x2.5" vs 7"x7"x1.5") but it has more modern components, is easier to get into and swap internals, and i can get one on ebay for $300-350. the look is still very traditional PC compared to the very simple and appealing look of the mac mini


[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 1:55 PM. Reason : .]

1/19/2013 1:53:46 PM

i'll have 10TB RAW when it's all said and done, but likely have ~5TB with zpools

1/20/2013 10:29:27 AM

^^Why cant you rip the DVD's and put them in a network folder?

That's what I do with all my DVD's so I can watch them on my Rokus in the bedroom/garage.

1/20/2013 11:40:40 AM

this will be the only computer in the house with a dvd drive.

i guess i could take DVDs to work, rip it there and bring it home on a flash drive...

1/20/2013 2:46:02 PM

or just buy a usb dvd drive for ~$30. I can imagine you'll be ripping often enough to keep the drive out all the time

1/20/2013 5:21:11 PM

yeah, thought about that too. wife scoffed mildly at that suggestion originally, but it's probably worth looking at again

1/20/2013 6:18:11 PM

I started ripping me movies a year ago, then got tired of doing it. It can be a pain, but I suggest doing it, especially if there's not too many. I have it where I have the whole DVD ripped so everything including special features and what not is there. Definitely worth it if you have the time as my storage in my apartment was limited in storage area, so cutting out a lot of DVDs was great.

1/22/2013 6:12:18 PM

ok so i just bought one of these

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/desktops/ideacentre/q-series/q190



at $500 it was a bit more than i wanted to spend, but it has an i3, a 1 TB drive and built-in DVD player. and i can mount it behind my tv, which is nice

1/27/2013 10:29:27 PM

$500 for a last gen i3 with 4GB of ram and a 5400rpm HDD? I guess if you're paying for the form factor...Just seems like you could build a much cheaper HTPC with Ivy Bridge in a micro or mini ATX form factor that does the same thing.

1/28/2013 8:53:21 AM

^^

I guess you bought that for convenience? That's pricey for what it is.

1/28/2013 9:13:22 AM

indeed, form factor was an important part of this purchase. I've looked at Mac Mini 2010, Mac Mini 2012, Acer RL80-UR318, Acer RL100, HP 8300 ultra-slim, Zotak Zbox, Dell Zino HD and custom builds, and though it was $50-100 more than i originally wanted to spend, this ended up being the best choice for what i was looking for

1/28/2013 9:41:49 AM

I think the best HTPC is a tower hidden in a closet. Don't have to pay a premium for size, get plenty of drive bays, and don't have to sacrifice anything. In fact putting the receiver, blu-ray, consoles, etc all in a closet is awesome. Obviously not available for everyone. I just hate trying to cram everything near the TV.

-On a side note I just set up the new Drobo 5N for my mom's business for storage. I'm really jealous. It's a 5 bay NAS that requires no set up. Can use any drive of any size and it creates redundancy on the fly. Pretty neat. Much less of a hassle then traditional Nas/raid set ups or doing a motherboard raid or something.

[Edited on January 28, 2013 at 9:50 AM. Reason : s]

1/28/2013 9:46:24 AM