Quote :

"Well part of the problem is a toxic culture that glorifies "hustlin" and the gang life. And it's reinforced when kids who try to do the right thing are told they're "acting white". Change needs to start there. You can pump all the money in the world into schools and it's not going to change anything if the culture is still rotten."

this is something that is consistently said but isn't really backed up by facts

can't believe you didnt also blame rap

root causes, my man

8/17/2015 5:59:29 PM

Quote :

"where? nobody said that it's utterly impossible for them to succeed. you made that up."

Whenever folks hand wave away the "change comes from within" argument and lament the hopelessness of the situation, that's essentially what is being done. "Oh but white people did this", "oh but slavery", etc. does nothing to fix the problem and, repeated often enough reinforces in youth the hopelessness of the situation. No one is saying "it can be done", all you see in this thread, the media, and coming from the government is "whitey be holdin' y'all down".

Quote :

"How do you suggest that an infant and young child born into that life make that change?"

Better parenting and, as bad as it sounds on the surface, community shaming. The same sense of shame that turned "stop snitching" into a thing needs to be turned on its head. DO SNITCH. Foster a collective psyche that denigrates gangs, teen pregnancy, and drug use. These are all things in black culture that are at best considered acceptable and at worst considered cool. That needs to change and as they like to say "it takes a village".

Or just blame whitey instead of looking inward. Whatever.

Quote :

"this is something that is consistently said but isn't really backed up by facts"

So you really think black culture can remain as it is and lead to successful outcomes so long as we just throw money at the problem? OK.

Quote :

"can't believe you didnt also blame rap"

Kind of implied.

[Edited on August 17, 2015 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ...]

8/17/2015 6:00:41 PM

other that the fact that rap isn't an all-encompassing term/monolithic, it's a reflection of life in certain areas. blaming it for anything is pretty fucking ignorant on a few different levels.

it's also dumb to target any art form as a reason for societal problems of any kind

but keep up with the ignorance. it suits you.

8/17/2015 6:14:00 PM

oh we're now blaming genres of music for social and race problems.

8/17/2015 6:29:38 PM

Quote :

"oster a collective psyche that denigrates gangs, teen pregnancy, and drug use."

you get a fatter welfare check though when you have more kids. DUH!

8/17/2015 8:15:00 PM

I bet HURs great grandparents were bitching about all the micks and WOPs 100 years ago.

8/17/2015 8:22:19 PM

And then the spics. Dude, the spics.

Nevermind the dagos, japs, and kikes.

8/17/2015 8:31:29 PM

No probably not

8/17/2015 9:06:08 PM

Maybe HUR's family was once a group of immigrants working in factories and he's buttthurt about it.

8/17/2015 9:36:44 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/business/racial-wealth-gap-persists-despite-degree-study-says.html?smid=tw-share

Rasist

8/17/2015 10:24:34 PM

"The blacks" clearly have an uphill battle compared to "the whites" but anyone dismissing the crabs-in-a-bucket I'd-rather-go-to-prison-than-someone-disrespect-me "hood culture" element is just as delusional as people who don't think white folks have it easier, generally speaking.

Unless all the black community leaders trying to change that are full of shit

I mean, let's go back to rap for a second. Look at the Wu. They have songs about how slinging rocks isn't the path to go, and listen to me, I've been through hustling, going to prison, seeing friends die, that's not how you should live your life shorty, learn from me. Then the next track is about how they're still killers and don't take anyone disrespecting them. Lots of hypocrisy. God body not supposed to poison their people

[Edited on August 17, 2015 at 11:19 PM. Reason : .]

8/17/2015 11:15:45 PM

Wu Tang is a horrible example to use, considering that they consist of 9 rappers and dozens of associate artists. They cover the spectrum from ODB overdosing on coke to Raekwon dreaming of being a coke kingpin to Ghostface bitching about how he's tired of selling coke.

8/17/2015 11:34:31 PM

That's why they are a perfect example. Because they give you one perspective on how to do things, then a completely opposite perspective.

How is someone influenced by their music supposed to decide or know if they should live the ganster lifestyle or go straight? Their songs sure as hell don't give consistency. But their music is dope.


[Edited on August 17, 2015 at 11:45 PM. Reason : and it sounds like eleusis isn't a Cappadonna fan]

8/17/2015 11:43:02 PM

Here's an example of a positive song by the Wu that contradicts all the coke sling shit you mentioned



what is a child to think

8/18/2015 12:46:45 AM

The gangster lifestyle has looked like a great idea to multiple generations of people in the US. The Irish in the 20's, Italians from the 50's and 70's, and Eastern Europeans currently. "hood culture" is shared amongst a large amount of people in the US it just seems black people get the honor of being labeled "hood". There are multiple active again gangs in NYC doing all kinds of illegal shit but your average suburban white person is not scared of Asians so it's NBD.

8/18/2015 7:27:28 AM

I've never seen a video of an Asian kid get getting jumped by his peers on wshh for getting good grades.

8/18/2015 10:40:32 AM

Oh you found a video of something on the Internet!?

8/18/2015 10:49:23 AM

WSHH is probably all staged, right?

8/18/2015 10:53:50 AM

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/summer-jobs-are-slowly-disappearing/

I'm pretty sure music is a reactive factor, not a predictive one... Not to mention modern mainstream hip hop isn't very pro gang, and black people listen to more than hip hop anyway.

8/18/2015 10:55:21 AM

I have no idea what WHSS is.

8/18/2015 10:57:29 AM

World Star Hip Hop

shows how in touch you are with the urban youth

8/18/2015 10:59:44 AM

Ha. I'm 30!

8/18/2015 11:10:07 AM

Quote :

"tty sure music is a reactive factor, not a predictive one... "

You are joking right? Perhaps reactive for the artist but you are kidding yourself if you think African American, white, Asian, etc listen to gangster rap as a reaction to their socio-economic status. Hell sometimes when I'm jamming 2Chainz or playing that old school tupac I want to be a gangsta too. Then I remembered I have to be responsible for my own actions and that going to college seemed like a more reasonable career pursuit that dealing drugs, playing NBA or becoming a hip hop artist myself.

8/18/2015 11:45:28 AM

Something tells me these are, by far, bigger factors:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/business/racial-wealth-gap-persists-despite-degree-study-says.html?smid=tw-share

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/summer-jobs-are-slowly-disappearing/

8/18/2015 11:52:04 AM

^just wait til we get $15/min wage. Teens wont be able to get a job all 4 seasons not just the summer

8/18/2015 12:30:33 PM

^ that's probably true. We should do like Australia and have an exemption for workers under 18.

8/18/2015 12:39:18 PM

Quote :

"Something tells me these are, by far, bigger factors: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/business/racial-wealth-gap-persists-despite-degree-study-says.html?smid=tw-share"

Has anyone explored other variables for this instead of just blaming mean racist employers for not hiring more African Americans.
For example tendencies of African Americans to stay closer to family (whom may not live in thriving economies) rather then seeking the best jobs. For example returning to semi-rural Mississippi instead of going to more economically thriving areas like Seattle (This would be a hypothetical cultural cause).
Another one that the article even mentions is African-Americans and Hispanics college grads entering government jobs, social-work, or teaching positions.
Entering these positions is a way of helping others, giving back, or helping the community since they may be more awareof the struggles that are faced by those in disadvantaged socio-economic situations. Choosing these careers instead of going into more higher paying lucrative careers.

No matter what how do you reason we fix this alleged problem moron. Should employers be forced to hire potentially less qualified candidates
(which many companies that rely on government contracts are already are forced to do) to create more "diversity". Should African-American mothers be more
sensitive of naming their children LaQuinta or some other derivation of an African sounding name, knowing that their is a chance this could impact their
future job prospects. Many Asian mothers already choose to name their children very stereotypical American names for this reason i.e Harold, Karen, John, etc.

8/18/2015 12:51:59 PM

Quote :

"Has anyone explored other variables for this instead of just blaming mean racist employers for not hiring more African Americans."

Yes, as posted previously in this thread.

When you considering the compendium of research on this issue, it's pretty clear that racism (systemic bias, white privilege, majority benefit, whatever you want to call it) is a big factor in these broad trends.

Quote :

"No matter what how do you reason we fix this alleged problem moron. Should employers be forced to hire potentially less qualified candidates (which many companies that rely on government contracts are already are forced to do) to create more "diversity"."

We should fix the policing issues, fix the criminal justice disparities, stop teachers from treating black students harsher than white students for the same actions (we should also stop kids from being labelled as "behaviorally handicapped" in elementary school that follows them up through high school), we should have prisons that push reform, we should support and encourage what Intel has been doing with investing their own money into college engineering programs in HBCUs and programs for women (this would naturally encourage recruitment from these areas to increase diversity- no need for quotas), we should prime jurors on how to handle bias and prejudice, prime HR hiring managers, universal preschool is a good tool to solve this problem too.

there's even more than this.

But we can't even get people like you to even admit theres a problem that needs solving, that we created as a society, that we can fix as a society.

[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

8/18/2015 12:55:15 PM

Quote :

"Something tells me these are, by far, bigger factors: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/business/racial-wealth-gap-persists-despite-degree-study-says.html?smid=tw-share"

This is just like when liberals say "Women earn 77cents on the dollar" but they are comparing waitresses to male brain surgeons, it's a garbage stat.

From the same article you posted:

Quote :

" Blacks have fewer advanced degrees, and the ones who do are more often in lower-paying fields or graduates of colleges with lesser reputations. Blacks and Hispanics are also less likely than whites to inherit money or receive help from their parents to cover a tuition bill or a down payment on a house."

But I'm sure it's just because a racist manager saw "Tyrone" on the resume and said "fuck this guy, offer him less".

[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/18/2015 1:12:16 PM

Quote :

"Women earn 77cents on the dollar" but they are comparing waitresses to male brain surgeons, it's a garbage stat."

Holy fuck you are dumb.

That's not how it works, and I'd like to see a waitress who earns 77% of a brain surgeon's pay.

8/18/2015 1:16:01 PM

^ we stopped caring about individual racism on like page 2 of this thread, yet you're still hung up on it. You also quoted thing that demonstrate a facet of systemic racism, but didn't take the next logical stop of wondering why those other factors matter.

After 13 pages of this, you don't have any excuse to not understand what all these things together mean.

Your main interest seems to be shirking any feeling of responsibility for the maintenance of our society, rather than trying to understand where these problems come from and supporting solutions.

8/18/2015 1:18:30 PM

Quote :

" "Women earn 77cents on the dollar" but they are comparing waitresses to male brain surgeons, it's a garbage stat. "

i want to be a waitress so i can make 77% of what a brain surgeon makes. that seems like a p good gig

8/18/2015 1:27:06 PM

Quote :

"But I'm sure it's just because a racist manager saw "Tyrone" on the resume and said "fuck this guy, offer him less""

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

8/18/2015 1:29:15 PM

The "77% argument" is a broad claim that women make less than men on average, accounting for "sexism" as the reason for all 23 cents of disparity.

If you account for occupations (brain surgeon and waitress example), college majors, length of time in workplace, the gap nearly disappears. The same applies for the racial wealth gap, as I just posted from your article.

If you are a bleeding heart liberal looking to point fingers and play victim, sure you can ignore relevant factors and dismiss it as discrimination.

8/18/2015 1:34:26 PM

Source

8/18/2015 1:44:50 PM

Quote :

"ok...what's the plan? how do I start from zero and make it successfully in this 2015 of which you speak?"

[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 1:56 PM. Reason : side note...can't pay college tuition with mom's food stamps.]

8/18/2015 1:55:22 PM

Quote :

"But I'm sure it's just because a racist manager saw "Tyrone" on the resume and said "fuck this guy, offer him less"."

that is actually a very real thing. but keep fucking that chicken.

8/18/2015 2:27:07 PM

^ Racist wage negotiation =/= less call backs with an African sounding name.

Quote :

""ok...what's the plan? how do I start from zero and make it successfully in this 2015 of which you speak?""

Simple. Don't make poor choices.

All of moron's solutions above were all dependent on poor choices.


^^^Even the HuffPost shared it, so it must be true.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html


[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 2:52 PM. Reason : .]

8/18/2015 2:50:25 PM

Quote :

"All of moron's solutions above were all dependent on poor choices. "

o.O

O.o

[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 5:17 PM. Reason : ]

8/18/2015 5:17:19 PM

Quote :

"Simple. Don't make poor choices."

Seriously. It's 2015. It seems that kids would quit choosing to be born into abject poverty, or born to absentee parents, or born into environments where they're constantly surrounded by drugs, gangs and crime as a way of life. Come on kids, use your brains!

8/18/2015 5:21:54 PM

Quote :

"^^^Even the HuffPost shared it, so it must be true. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html"

I can also find articles that help me make my points...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/opinion/lets-expose-the-gender-pay-gap.html

Quote :

"...found that the gap persists for identical jobs, even after controlling for hours, education, race and age. Female doctors and surgeons, for example, earn 71 percent of what their male colleagues make, while female financial specialists are paid just 66 percent as much as comparable men."

and this one even talks about unconscious bias (which some of you can't seem to separate from blatant racism)

Quote :

"About 20 percent of large companies now train employees to recognize unconscious bias, spending billions of dollars to try to stamp out unintentional discrimination."

8/18/2015 5:29:40 PM

naw...seriously, I was hoping you'd answer the question with specifics.

8/18/2015 5:35:18 PM

Quote :

"...can't pay college tuition with mom's food stamps"

Interesting from what I remember there was a shit ton of need based grants and federal subsidized loans. All things that I never qualified for because my parents made above "x" amount. After my first semester (to give me time to adjust to college life ) I never saw a dime. From my parents perspective it was my education so I was responsible for financing my education *gasp* through part time jobs, co-ops, and interest loans. I know this is a tough concept for hardcore liberals who think everything should be handed out. Sure I think education costs are put of control but in 2015 one can find means (probably moreso if from both an under privileged family and being a minority) to afford higher education even if ones mom is on food stamps.

8/18/2015 6:56:19 PM

I'm happy nothing was given to you.

You'd probably complain about it.

8/18/2015 6:59:25 PM

yeah my bootstraps are about worn out. I better go shopping at REI tonight.

8/18/2015 8:10:36 PM

Walmart boots for poors bruh.

8/18/2015 9:45:37 PM

Look, I'm as Republican as anybody here. But at some point we have to get real about a few things. Lets say you're a black dude from a poor neighborhood in Goldsboro. Let's step through your life.

1. There's a good chance you were born to a single mother, who probably flirted with the idea of an abortion, but decided to keep you. She gets an occasional child support payment, but not enough to pay the bills, keep you clothed, fed and diapered. Because she chose not to make you into $$ for planned parenthood, she has to work at least 2 jobs to make ends meet. Her mom might be able to take care of you a couple of days a week. Other times she leaves you with her friend. She comes home exhausted at night, brings you in her bed, and cuddles with you b/c that's all the time she really has with you. As a result, you grow up never seeing your mother, not having a father figure, and just generally start out on the wrong side of the bed.

2. Fast forward a few years. Mom has been able to find a pretty good pre-school program that assists in tuition for low-income familes, so you're in a pretty good little school. A school that has mostly white kids, white teachers, and parents who, for the most part have been there with their little toddlers. Because your mom loved you so much she was never around, you start to act out somewhat aggressively from never having a set of parents that were around much. The teachers try to work with this little toddler aggression, but soon they grow tired with it, they let you be, and start to ignore you. This makes the behavior even worse. You get punished, but you also crave the attention they give you when you get in trouble.

3. Fast forward a few years. The same as above, except you're in an elementary school in a bad part of town, staffed with tired teachers, stocked with crappy computers, and just generally a poor learning environment. Your dad has virtually stopped paying child support, so your mom hasn't really gotten a break from her two jobs. As such, she's not really there to help you with your homework, so when you don't understand some of the things you're asked to do, you just don't do it. You could stay after school, but if you miss the buses that leave at the normal time, there's no one around to pick you up.

4. Fast forward a few years. Middle school. Mom still works a lot. You're a latchkey kid now. You've established a pattern of not doing your homework in elementary school, and you've found some friends to hang out with after school, so you're not that interested anyway. These friends, they aren't necessarily bad influences, but most of them have similar backgrounds, so your behavior seems somewhat normal - being able to do what you want at home for the most part, nobody at home supporting school work, etc.

5. Fast forward a few years. Your mom got fed up with your lack of caring for school, so she moves away from your friends who she thinks is a bad influence, breaks her fucking back trying to get you into a better school district....and it works. You start applying yourself in high school, you find a subject you really like, you hunker down, and start learning the shit out of it. Let's say you're in the 10th grade at this point. 9th grade was a shit year at the old school.

6. Fast forward a few years. You're applying to college. You've done well for yourself since the 10th grade, but that 9th grade year really hurt your GPA, and because you've had to work a part time job to help your mom pay bills, you haven't really had a whole lot of time to do extracurricular activities. Your high school transcript is college-worthy, but not necessarily scholarship-worthy. There are some minority scholarships you can apply for, but those won't pay for the $22k that NC State now costs. Yea, you're a State fan. Your mom fills out FAFSA forms and you take out loans.

7. Fast forward a few years. You've done it. You've graduated. And you owe $100k in school debt. It wouldn't been $88, but you changed majors and took a summer of summer school to catch up.

Now you have to find a job, and I'm not even gonna start about the white privilege in the work force, because words. There are already too many of them.

Edit: Sure, I used some stereotypes in my narrative above, but they aren't far fetched, and the ones I use do happen too often.



[Edited on August 18, 2015 at 10:19 PM. Reason : sadfa]

8/18/2015 10:17:05 PM

But all of that is dependent on the mother's choice to have a child that she can't support.

8/18/2015 10:28:14 PM

What a lovely story you've written.

8/18/2015 10:31:56 PM

^^So you would have preferred this person get an abortion?

^Why so sarcastic?

8/18/2015 10:37:10 PM