So if he loses this game or GT or a bowl, that will be 3 in a row and 6 of 8 without that ceiling, that would = fire?

11/28/2020 3:31:31 PM

Frankly he should be fired for that timeout but hey

11/28/2020 3:46:31 PM

^ ok yeah I can get behind that.

I think 8 is the more realistic number, that way we (thoeretically) have a >500 ACC record each year too but basically I think we keep him til his contract ends and then if he's not stringing together 8+ win seasons he's good to go

[Edited on November 28, 2020 at 3:59 PM. Reason : e]

11/28/2020 3:58:43 PM

Quote :

"I don't think we have a justification for firing Dave until his contract runs out"

Well major college coaches pretty much never have a contract run out. Having a coach with anything less than a couple years on a contract is extremely rare because it's used against them in recruiting. If you're letting a guy coach in the final year of his contract, you may as well have just fired him a year or two before.

11/28/2020 4:07:16 PM

Quote :

" In total, Dave's conference record is inexcusably bad. Despite that, I don't think we have a justification for firing Dave until his contract runs out *or* he starts consistently missing his ceiling (9 wins like 2017-18). Until then, while he's done worse than most of us would like in-conference,"

I get what you’re saying. DD has had two seasons go terribly off the rails (last year, and year 1). And even the good years felt underwhelming like we should’ve been better.

But. Nothing in NC State’s football history should tell us that his record is inexcusably bad. We aren’t a good program historically. Amato or TOB never won 6 ACC games....with Rivers, RW, and Glennon. Maybe it’s not fair to compare him to his predecessors because the landscape of the conference is constantly evolving. I don’t know. But, I’m not sure what you think we should be expecting. His lows have been very very bad. That’s a fair criticism. But as a whole, I think the program is on more solid footing now that has been in a quite some time. It’s frustrating to see UNC picking up steam, and I know we like to use them as a measuring stick. DD is not above criticism. But there’s not really anything in the history of NC State football to suggest that he’s been particularly bad or even just a step in the wrong direction.

Also, you mentioned letting his contract expire. That’s pretty rare in CFB. Not renewing a contract hampers you in recruiting, for one thing. Probably hamstrings you if you need to hire assistant coaches, too. I think the way colleges treat coaching contracts is sometimes dumb (gigantic buyouts that almost always inevitably get paid out, renewing it before you need to, etc) but it’s the reality we live in. His contract will likely never get below 3 years remaining because that’s just how it works almost always.

DD has his faults. But I think this year is probably the best coaching job he’s done. We should always strive to improve as a program and move up in the ranks, but ultimately...our history speaks for itself. We are not a perennial top 25 team. And our expectations should reflect that. That doesn’t mean we can’t improve our standing. But that’s our reality.

[Edited on November 28, 2020 at 4:18 PM. Reason : A]

11/28/2020 4:16:31 PM

People who want to fire DD: Who the hell do you want to hire?

11/28/2020 4:21:18 PM

Bill Cowher
Bill Belichick
Tom Brady
Philip Rivers
Andy Reid
Nick Saban

11/28/2020 5:42:01 PM

Saban got covid, doesn't have the discipline to coach here

11/28/2020 6:45:07 PM

I thought this was a very well coached game, aside from going for two when it was too early in the game to know what the situation would be like later. That one point (which really would have been two because he wouldn't have gone for it the second time if not for the first miss) would have made Syracuse's final drive not matter so much.

I don't have a problem with calling timeout near the end. Maybe he saw something that needed to be fixed, we don't know. But he's not an idiot, there was a reason.

This team came into the second half ready to play with heads held high after a terrible first half. That's good coaching.

11/28/2020 8:29:30 PM

Quote :

"But he's not an idiot"

Debatable. He's a decent football coach, but I'm not going to say he's not an idiot.

11/28/2020 8:44:35 PM

Going for two with 25 minutes left in the game was a terrible decision. The timeout late in the game was fine, it was the only way to get substitutes in. The decision to not bench Hockman for a series after throwing the ball backwards out of the end zone though... LOL

11/28/2020 9:09:49 PM

I think it worked out

11/28/2020 11:52:11 PM

dmspack -- that's very true, I agree with everything you said, and I pretty much added most of those caveats in my post. Hard to compare against the old ACC. I've said this before and I'll say it again, Dave's ceiling is roughly on par with our historical ceiling, so I don't have an issue with keeping him til it becomes clear that the team has moved up and he hasn't.

And yeah you're right about contracts not running out, but what I was getting at is that teams and coaches can mutually part ways sometimes without having to stomach the massive buyout. Sometimes the program and the coach can agree the coach needs to leave. That was basically what I was going for.

I think this year in particular makes it particularly hard to dislike Doeren. We'll see what next year brings, but, barring a catastrophic failure going into 2021, I'm looking forward to see what we can do.

[Edited on November 29, 2020 at 10:23 AM. Reason : e]

11/29/2020 10:23:19 AM

8-3. somebody find the pages where i was the only one defending him

12/5/2020 7:21:03 PM

Lol all you wan to fire the best nc state coach ever. First to win this many games

[Edited on December 5, 2020 at 7:43 PM. Reason : Games]

12/5/2020 7:40:21 PM

It’s true. We all want him fired. All of us.

12/5/2020 8:37:11 PM

Didn’t agree with him not taking the field goal when we went for it on 4th and 1 but overall a good year from Doeren.

12/6/2020 12:07:57 AM

the last 4 seasons (19-15) is the best ACC win % (55.9%) over a 4 year stretch for State since 1991-1994 (Sheridan and MOC combined for 21-10, 67.8%).

obviously last year's 1-7 mark really drags down that win %. and i'm not trying to proclaim DD the greatest coach ever. more just pointing out how mediocre State football is historically.

12/16/2020 6:38:28 AM

+ a couple points

Quote :

"8 Wins > ??. We don't forget! #GoPack https://t.co/N0QH3HwxH7"

12/16/2020 7:40:56 PM

Give him his respect but now you guys are going to have to resist the urge to compare him against UNC. That program is rising to a whole different level.

12/17/2020 1:23:51 AM

oh Earl

12/17/2020 2:24:37 AM

gag

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 9:21 AM. Reason : Today is our day]

12/17/2020 9:20:21 AM

If nobody else wants to address the elephant in the room, I’ll do it.

Dave is ok. We’ve had some good seasons. But I’m looking down the road at UNC and I just don’t think Dave can keep up with Mack. Time for a change...maybe get out ahead of this????

12/17/2020 2:52:56 PM

Good point they program seems to rising to a different level. After all they were close to making the acc championship game, and everyone knows sky is the limit after that

12/17/2020 2:55:34 PM

Do we really think Mack is going to be there more than a few more years before he retires?

12/17/2020 3:58:26 PM

worried more about those few years in the future or now?

no need to downplay what’s happening there now

we’d be ecstatic if the same was happening for us

12/17/2020 4:43:59 PM

Don't ever take earls side in front of strangers

12/17/2020 4:45:28 PM

don’t think that I am. just responding to those who should know better.

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 4:59 PM. Reason : .]

12/17/2020 4:58:51 PM

Nah it's dumb to judge Doeren based on UNC's success or lack thereof.

Besides they beat us pretty good (although we also had some nice nc state shit) but we finished with the exact same record and finished ranked. Non clemson teams live and die by the qb. In a year or two when Howell is gone we can talk again.

12/17/2020 5:11:23 PM

Yes, UNC currently has a generational talent at QB and finished 8-3.

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 5:30 PM. Reason : Kind of like when State had Rivers and still couldn't win shit.]

12/17/2020 5:29:54 PM

he’s their Rivers

he’s also better positioned for a nationally recognized junior year

it’s ok to admit it

12/17/2020 6:54:41 PM

^ I mean, that’s true. But they’re probably gonna go something like 9-3 and finish 16th in the country at best. Which is pretty good and nothing to sneeze at! But it’s nothing that I think we need to be actively concerned about. UNC historically always out recruits us. We’re still recruiting just fine. Everything is good here.

I don’t think he’s their Rivers. He’s really good, so don’t get me wrong. But they have such good RBs, they don’t have to ask him to do throw 30 times a game. He threw 19 passes vs Miami. He threw 30+ times in a game 3 times this year. In Rivers 2nd year he attempted 30+ passes in all but 1 game. It’s different offenses and I’m not trying to make a direct comparison. But those RBs probably haven’t been getting enough credit really

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 7:09 PM. Reason : A]

12/17/2020 7:04:21 PM

him being their Rivers shouldn’t be an excuse to compare stats

they’re both the best QB’s that their programs have ever had who own (or will own) a majority of their schools records

12/17/2020 7:16:07 PM

Quote :

"it’s ok to admit it"

It's not about admitting it's about why the fuck it's being discussed in the DD thread. What does one have to do with the other? It sucks that unc is good and I wish they weren't but what can DD do about that. Are we mad at DD for clemson being good too?

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 7:24 PM. Reason : Also Gg Earl your troll bullshit worked ]

12/17/2020 7:24:25 PM

you took the bait

I laundered my response through your posts

none of this matters one bit, though

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 7:37 PM. Reason : .]

12/17/2020 7:36:46 PM

Dms and I were being wildly sarcastic, tt10 was the only one mildly serious then you acted like it was something that must be addressed. I tried to turn it not serious again and you responded as straight faced as possible. When earl says it, it's useless trolling, I take it more seriously from a normal poster.

12/17/2020 7:42:31 PM

glad you were able to see my face as I posted

legit responded to the post above my intial post without seeing what went on beforehand

you decided to take it seriously after your initial sarcasm

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 7:49 PM. Reason : .]

12/17/2020 7:45:34 PM

Fair.

12/17/2020 7:49:22 PM

There were people who once said DD needed to win the division to keep his job. Yes that means beat Clemson. They didn't have a read on where Clemson was headed at the time or where FSU was at the time either.

I'm going to be a handful and do my gloating because I went through years of being called an earl and a troll for saying doeren didn't need to be fired and that things would improve and I was the only one and I ended up being right. This place and this thread specifically will never live that down. It really all started here.

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 7:57 PM. Reason : i know it hurts but will remind you every chance. I wont go digging up quotes to rub salt in tho]

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 8:00 PM. Reason : those same people will turn up the pressure on DD if UNC starts going to NY6 bowls. ]

12/17/2020 7:55:45 PM

Believe me, we don't say that shit about you just bc you think you had some sixth sense about dd

12/17/2020 8:06:00 PM

^^ dude have you read anything I've posted on here? I've been backing Dave up for ages

12/17/2020 10:08:05 PM

Good point. I glanced over the posts from 2015 and its basically like the same half a dozen or so people criticizing DD and calling me Earl and troll all together over and over. The loudest group is not necessarily the majority.

12/17/2020 10:25:52 PM

[quoteThere were people who once said DD needed to win the division to keep his job. Yes that means beat Clemson. They didn't have a read on where Clemson was headed at the time or where FSU was at the time either.][/quote]

lol man this is hilariously inaccurate.

12/18/2020 6:39:42 AM

+1 for going 8-4 in an odd year, including loss of starting QB

-1 for finishing 4th in a conference that didn't win a single bowl game

1/3/2021 1:10:07 AM

Somebody may have posted something similar but

Quote :

"Did this for Wake Forest yesterday… Here’s NC State’s 5-year rolling win % for the past 50 years… Doeren hasn’t been quite as good as Holtz, Sheridan or Amato at their peaks but he’s been solid and consistent. https://t.co/h7n9qSxhQR "

[Edited on February 26, 2021 at 11:29 AM. Reason : Ee]

2/26/2021 11:28:58 AM

A lotta people point to DD’s 2 horrible seasons (0-8 and then 1-7) as a reason to maybe fire him or at least criticize him. There’s really no defending those seasons and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be upset with just how bad those seasons went. But what I think this graph is a good illustration of the overall trajectory of the DD era. We all wish the highs were higher. But overall the trend is positive and the program has generally experienced more consistency as opposed to wild swings.

2/26/2021 11:48:29 AM

I'm not in the fire him camp, but the arguments I often hear are about his padded wins due to lots of cupcakes and then never winning the big games that would put us over the top. Choking against wake on the regular, not being able to give clemson a real game, etc.

2/26/2021 12:22:50 PM

Yeah the big criticism is no real marquee win and not reaching his ceiling in 2017 and 2018. The win over Lamar Jackson and UL is the best, I think. Could’ve and probably should’ve beaten Miami this past year, which would’ve been a really nice win. I’d also argue that there’s probably been less chances for big wins since the ACC is really crappy outside of Clemson and nobody is beating Clemson right now in the ACC. So it’s hard for me to hold it against him that he hasn’t done that. But I’m not entirely disagreeing with you...he’s not perfect. There’s legit criticisms to make about him.

2/26/2021 12:35:24 PM

^^wait you want Keatts fired but you don't want Doeren fired? That's fucking wild to me.

2/26/2021 1:48:59 PM

Quote :

"not being able to give clemson a real game, etc."

Do what now

2/26/2021 2:16:41 PM