Quote :

"him being a mexican, or illegal immigrant, does not make him a rapist"

nobody is saying that being a mexican or illegal immigrant makes him a rapist

but you fail to realize that if he wasnt in the United States, he couldnt rape american women / break into houses in the US / kidnap American women

pointing out that there are rapists other than illegal mexicans does nothing to change the fact that if he were not here he couldnt have committed those crimes...and these girls were in a fairly nice neighborhood jogging around 6-7pm and he just snatched them up and raped them...but if you'd rather point out that non-illegals also commit rape then continue

and you never told me the name of the logical fallacy that you are using which is essentially to ignore that the illegal committed multiple rapes and crimes (16 felonies) by changing the subject to non-illegal rapists

7/31/2007 3:36:19 PM

Quote :

"blame shifting...instead of admiting this fence hopper needs to die, you blame white people for other crimes....fucking dipshits"

This is mainly because we hate non-Hispanic Americans.

Quote :

"i wish i knew the terms for the logical fallacies you're using to defend this guy"

I know which one you're using.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogy

7/31/2007 3:37:57 PM

Quote :

"one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots"

so you're admitting you're an idiot?

7/31/2007 3:39:33 PM

again, you're using a post hoc argument. there is no proof that he wouldn't have raped anyone if he had stayed in mexico. unless, of course, you're arguing that it's somehow better to rape mexican women than americans?

sure, the guy is scum, lock him up and throw away the key, or kick him out and make sure he's locked up in mexico. i don't care what you do with the guy as long as he, and all rapists, are kept away from society.

7/31/2007 3:41:17 PM

Quote :

"there is no proof that he wouldn't have raped anyone if he had stayed in mexico"

nice straw man since nobody ever claimed that he would or wouldnt have done ANYTHING in mexico

Quote :

"unless, of course, you're arguing that it's somehow better to rape mexican women than americans?"

another straw man

normally i'd continue to reply to your ad hom and logical fallacy statements by "playing by your rules" but in the end i always get ridiculed as being a troll for that...so i'll just do what you guys do and say "strawman...nice try you lose"

however if i were to continue with your logic, and you were to again say that being a rapist is completely independent of being a mexican or illegal, i'd say violence in the middle east is completely independent of US occupation

7/31/2007 3:42:25 PM

find 1 post where i've ever claimed straw man.

7/31/2007 3:44:49 PM

well according to wikipedia

Quote :

"Straw man — mischaracterizing the opposing position and then arguing against the mischaracterization. "

the straw man that you used that i just pointed out in my last post was where you mischaracterized my position as claiming what he would or wouldnt have done in mexico and then argued against that when my position was never claiming anything about what he would or wouldnt have done in mexico...i was stating the fact that if he wasnt in the United States, he couldnt commit any crimes in the United States

ps: if thats not a straw man please explain why it isnt because like i said on the previous page, i would like some clarification on some of the logical fallacies since when i reply to logical fallacies with logical fallacies of my own i usually take full blame and im attempting to make more of an effort to not do that

[Edited on July 31, 2007 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

7/31/2007 3:46:36 PM

Quote :

"but you fail to realize that if he wasnt in the United States, he couldnt rape american women / break into houses in the US / kidnap American women"

This is true of all rapists. Should we deport all males?

Many immigrants might well be more likely to commit crime than wealthier natives. Oh well. That's the price of freedom. I still think we should open the borders.

7/31/2007 3:49:49 PM

Quote :

"Should we deport all males?"

if they came here illegally then yeah sure

Quote :

"I still think we should open the borders"

sovereignty for every country except the US! (i disagree with your opinion about open borders)

7/31/2007 3:50:41 PM

Quote :

"sovereignty for every country except the US!"

I think all countries should open their borders.

7/31/2007 3:58:17 PM

I think the problem here is, you're saying that the problem with this rapist is that he's an illegal immigrant. The logical conclusion to your argument is that if there were no illegal immigrants that rape (or at least a large chunk of it) would not occur.

What you have failed to do is prove that him being illegal contributed to the rape (which, if true is a problem and needs to be addressed, but you'd have to prove that illegal immigrants were at least a standard deviation above non-immigrants percentage wise).

I'm not disagreeing that illegal immigration is a problem; I believe it needs to be addressed. I'm sure we disagree on the finer details, but that is not the issue. The issue that you are bringing up is that immigrants come over and commit crimes. For this to be a valid argument you have to prove that they commit crimes, statistically, more than the average person. I think that due to the nature of the issue reliable (read: unbiased) statistics would be hard to come by.



edit: 1000 posts

[Edited on July 31, 2007 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

7/31/2007 3:58:27 PM

Quote :

"you're saying that the problem with this rapist is that he's an illegal immigrant"

i'm NOT SAYING THAT

i'm pointing out that, with all crimes that all illegal immigrants commit, the crimes couldn't possibly be commited in the United States if the illegal immigrants themselves were not in the United States

and i dont have any type of stats that compare crime rates amongst legal vs illegals (although iirc there was some study that said mexicans had a higher DWI rate)...but if there are 12 million illegals and only 10,000 are criminals (for arguments sake), thats still 10,000 criminals who couldnt possibly commit any crimes on American properties or take any American lives if they were not in the country

this particular guy is an asshole on many counts...aside from coming into the country illegally and apparently not causing much attention in that respect because there was the chance he was just a "hard worker looking for a better life" (the common 'emotional appeal' form of demagogy)...then he commits crime after crime after crime after crime....this guy should've clearly been deported...i mean 16 felonies? I guess 3 strikes and your out doesnt apply to illegal aliens

7/31/2007 4:03:52 PM

Quote :

"but if there are 12 million illegals and only 10,000 are criminals (for arguments sake), thats still 10,000 criminals who couldnt possibly commit any crimes on American properties or take any American lives if they were not in the country"

So you mainly just want fewer people in the country?

A lower population means fewer criminals and less crime.

7/31/2007 4:21:30 PM

Quote :

"So you mainly just want fewer people illegally in the country?"

i fixed it so it was no longer a straw man argument

7/31/2007 4:24:37 PM

Quote :

"i fixed it so it was no longer a straw man argument"

Won't legal immigration also bring more rapists into the country? Or are legal immigrants perfectly law-abiding?

7/31/2007 4:32:38 PM

well we at least know they're law-abiding enough to legally enter the country

maybe we should take notice that people who are perfectly happy to break the laws to get into the country might be perfectly happy to break laws once they're in the country? i mean its a wild theory and all

those straw man arguments dont seem to be gettig you anywhere, btw

7/31/2007 4:37:11 PM

Quote :

"well we at least know they're law-abiding enough to legally enter the country"

If we decided to let anyone without a serious criminal record come in, would that solve the problem for you?

Quote :

"those straw man arguments dont seem to be gettig you anywhere, btw"

I'm going to go back in time and kick the shit out of whoever introduced you to logical fallacies.

7/31/2007 4:41:56 PM

Quote :

"If we decided to let anyone without a serious criminal record come in, would that solve the problem for you?"

no because i'm not for completely open borders all around the world like you are

Quote :

"I'm going to go back in time and kick the shit out of whoever introduced you to logical fallacies."

so you're going to back to the top of Page 10 of this thread and kick the shit out of yourself for posting that wikipedia link?

and no you didnt introduce me to logical fallacies...but you probably do feel kind of silly that the link you yourself posted is pwning your constant straw man arguments

7/31/2007 4:43:34 PM

Quote :

"no because i'm not for completely open borders all around the world like you are"

Why not? You claim it's not a matter of population control, and you don't even seem convinced illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crime than natives.

So what's the problem?

Quote :

"so you're going to back to the top of Page 10 of this thread and kick the shit out of yourself for posting that wikipedia link?"

Sadly, the damage was done before that. If I turn out to be the initial cause, I'll punch myself in the face.

Quote :

"but you probably do feel kind of silly that the link you yourself posted is pwning your constant straw man arguments"

More accurately, I'm infuriated by your gross misuse of logical fallacies.

[Edited on July 31, 2007 at 4:48 PM. Reason : accuracy!]

7/31/2007 4:46:41 PM

all this logical fallacy talk aside, i still stand by my argument that overall crime will be reduced if we give more hispanic people a legal channel to come into the country. this would weaken the trafficking networks considerably and reduce (though obviously wouldn't eliminate) much of the immigrant-related crimes now. (and before you say it NO I DON'T MEAN THE ACTUAL CRIME OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I'M TALKING ABOUT OTHER CRIMES)

7/31/2007 5:05:23 PM

I think there's a valid point in TT's argument that if they'll break the law to get here, it's only logical that they might be more willing to break other laws than someone who arrives legally. If someone goes through the proper channels, that requires work and patience, and shows that they obviously are here "to do business" so to speak, that they are serious about doing things right. On the other hand, if someone jumps the fence so they can make a quick buck, it's not guaranteed that they will commit crimes, but they have much less stake in the matter, and have much less to lose by engaging in illegal activities.

I am all about allowing anyone into the country that wants to apply, but I think that it should be just that - an application process, period. We have limited resources, so not everyone that wants to come live here can. If you want to live in this country and use it's resources, you should at least prove that you are willing to take the time and effort to prove that you will be an economic and social asset, not a drain.

I think we do need stricter controls on who we allow in, or this will continue to happen. Violent crime rates are characteristic of low-income, lower-class people, and not necessarily one race in particular. Those who enter illegally are lower-class, poorer citizens who otherwise might not make it in through proper channels, so tightening up on illegal immigrants from Mexico would not hurt in terms of controlling that population group, and as a result, violent crime rates.

8/1/2007 11:16:41 AM

Quote :

"overall crime will be reduced if we give more hispanic people a legal channel to come into the country. this would weaken the trafficking networks considerably and reduce (though obviously wouldn't eliminate) much of the immigrant-related crimes now. (and before you say it NO I DON'T MEAN THE ACTUAL CRIME OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I'M TALKING ABOUT OTHER CRIMES) "

i agree that it would weaken the trafficking networks...but how would it have ANY effect whatsoever on "much of the immigrant-related crimes now"? If you specifically say you're not talking about the crime of illegal immigration, then it seems you're talking about crimes they commit when they're already in the country...how would changing the method by which they enter the country have any effect on crimes they commit inside the country? I'd argue that giving more people a legal channel will simply add more immigrants, some lawbreaking, and INCREASE crime...I mean how in the hell would making someone's status legal change their likelihood of getting a DWI or killing or raping someone?

8/1/2007 11:23:39 AM

Quote :

"I think there's a valid point in TT's argument that if they'll break the law to get here, it's only logical that they might be more willing to break other laws than someone who arrives legally."

That works for the rather arbitrary laws, maybe, but I don't see how ignoring borders suggests one is more likely to commit rape or murder.

Quote :

"We have limited resources, so not everyone that wants to come live here can."

That issue should take care of itself.

8/1/2007 1:51:47 PM

Quote :

"I mean how in the hell would making someone's status legal change their likelihood of getting a DWI or killing or raping someone?"

as we've mentioned before, it would weaken the gang control over large segments of the immigant population and it would cut into their bankroll. as far as DUI's go, they might not decrease, that is the sort of crime that doesn't have much to do with gang activity. it's a separate problem.

8/1/2007 4:15:57 PM

http://www.minutemanproject.com

8/10/2007 10:13:46 AM

ATT: FAGGOT ASS Proponents of Illegal Immigration

you know who you are in this thread. I want you to think everytime, before you open your god damn mouth, about the 4 kids in Newark, 3 of which died, that were killed by an illegal immigrant. Everytime you throw some smuck argument about how we need them here for x reason, think about those four kids that were lined up and shot in the fucking head.

8/10/2007 11:48:00 AM

^they'll simply say YEAH CAUSE LEGAL CITIZENS NEVER KILL ANYBODY

yet they'll be the first ones to criticize a border patrol agent who shoots an illegal immigrant who threatens his life near the border

v like i said

8/10/2007 11:49:03 AM

If we removed every single human being from the United States, there would be zero crime.

Problem solved!

8/10/2007 12:03:33 PM

ATT: FAGGOT ASS Proponents of Child-rearing

you know who you are in this thread. I want you to think everytime, before you open your god damn mouth, about the 2 kids in South Carolina, both of whom died, that were killed by a mother. Everytime you throw some smuck argument about how we need them here for x reason, think about those two kids that were rolled into the water to drown.

8/10/2007 12:30:03 PM

^fags coming out of the woodwork

8/10/2007 12:47:56 PM

ok. so i'll humor you. what do you suggest we do?

8/10/2007 12:54:08 PM

hey jimmy, someone's got to maintain your yard.... sometimes the rapists get through the cracks

8/10/2007 12:54:43 PM

1) Inforce the $10,000 penalty per worker on employers
2) Deploy more border patrol agents
3) Hire as many people as it takes to make legal immigration as quick and thorough as possible
4) Get the legal immigrants in as fast as possible to fill the roles of fired employees

8/10/2007 1:00:09 PM

what are we to do with the millions of illegal immigrants?

because most of what you say i agree with for the most part. THOUGH, i take that you would increase the number of lower-skilled worker immigrants we would allow in?

[Edited on August 10, 2007 at 1:05 PM. Reason : .]

8/10/2007 1:02:57 PM

yes the whole US economy will not break down when we remove millions of the least skilled employees from its labor force

8/10/2007 1:09:08 PM

absolutely let more unskilled workers in.....screen them, and hire more immigration officials to set up a system to link up employers in need for low skilled workers. Hey, you want to come to America? Well right this way, we will even put you in touch with a farmer who needs help. It's a basic idea that would be complicated in the end, but it could work.

BTW, the market will take care of the rest of the workers. No jobs, then they will leave. We have a backlog of people waiting to enter the country, speed that damn process up and get them in here to backfill the jobs. We might take a hit in the beggining, which you will see in the next couple of months, but eventually we will get enough people in here legally to level out the system.

8/10/2007 1:17:11 PM

i don't know. the only problem i see with that is that it will possibly encourage more illegals to take part illegal activities to pay the bills.

8/10/2007 1:20:33 PM

Quote :

"absolutely let more unskilled workers in.....screen them, and hire more immigration officials to set up a system to link up employers in need for low skilled workers. Hey, you want to come to America? Well right this way, we will even put you in touch with a farmer who needs help. It's a basic idea that would be complicated in the end, but it could work."

your suggestion is to replace a quasi-market approach (that is, little real government intervention) to our immigrant labor force with a regulated, government-driven approach. the primary problem is that any time you replace a market approach with a governmentally regulated approach you are going to lose a ton of efficiency. not to mention we really, really don't need this sort of punch to our national economy...

it's an awful idea.

8/10/2007 1:31:52 PM

and what you are implying is that we should allow the markets to determine our national security laws....an even worse idea

8/10/2007 1:33:36 PM

if you want to make it a national security issue, fine

I'm just talking about the economics. you will fuck our economy up if you 1) attempt to kick all the unskilled illegal immigrant labor out of our country 2) raise taxes to provide for this overwhelming governmental effort.

8/10/2007 1:37:32 PM

well, if the issue was just about economics I would agree with your point 100%...I hate government involvement. However, we are dealing with a much more complicated issue involving national security, the economy, foreign relations...etc....and this warrents government intervention. Yes, I think we all understand the economy is at risk with policies that are being inacted. I think the risks associated with the other issues invovled are much higher for inaction or some sort of amnesty.

8/10/2007 2:00:56 PM

Quote :

"hey jimmy, someone's got to maintain your yard"

yeah its not like plenty of American high school and college kids used to do this on the weekends or for a summer job before Jose came around

8/10/2007 2:51:20 PM

but what happens when they go to school or get a serious girlfriend? assplay, jimmy, assplay. assplay over your yard, always

8/10/2007 3:01:25 PM

^i hear that, but were most lawns all types of fucked up and shitty before illegals started getting a lot of those jobs? seems like we've always been able to make do

i mean shit i used to mow the grass at the parents crib growing up...somehow amazingly we survived without illegals taking care of our lawn, or legal immigrants or american landscaping companies for that matter...it was pretty difficult, but i'm still alive...i survived

also i'm pretty sure much of the infrastructure you see around you was built by legal immigrants / american construction workers...somehow we found a way to do the impossible and survive without illegals

8/10/2007 3:04:25 PM

I cut lawns when I was in high school and my secret was charging less than the immigrants. I also smoked a lot of pot, so...

8/10/2007 3:09:48 PM

y los mexicanos fumaron mucho mota tambien

8/10/2007 3:11:18 PM

they are a reliable workforce that won't be replaced by high school students if we export them all, period.

8/10/2007 3:13:24 PM

how would we even "export" them all

i'm simply stating the fact that we seemed to have buildings built and lawns cut as far back as I can remember, at least before Charlotte was overrun with illegals

8/10/2007 3:17:04 PM

past performance does not indicate future results

seriously that might be one of the lamest logical arguments in the entire PAGE of this thread

8/10/2007 3:19:06 PM

nothing indicates future results except the future, dumbass

also good job of not predicting the future yourself, except that you did based on speculation

Quote :

"they are a reliable workforce that won't be replaced by high school students if we export them all, period."

8/10/2007 3:22:56 PM