Figured this would be a good time and place for this discussion given the recent removal of Confederate monuments in New Orleans. What you think?

My thought...put that shit to a vote on the ballot. I don't need some City Council deciding this shit for me.

5/22/2017 4:34:01 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mississippi-rep-lynch-people-removing-confederate-monuments-47561027

Quote :

""The destruction of these monuments, erected in the loving memory of our family and fellow Southern Americans, is both heinous and horrific," Oliver said in a post Saturday night, which was removed from his page Monday. "If the, and I use this term extremely loosely, "leadership" of Louisiana wishes to, in a Nazi-ish fashion, burn books or destroy historical monuments of OUR HISTORY, they should be LYNCHED! Let it be known, I will do all in my power to prevent this from happening in our State.""

- Republican state Rep. Karl Oliver of Winona

5/22/2017 4:50:14 PM

yeah, I saw that. I just figured instead of regurgitating an article and providing a link to said article, I'd tell you how I felt about it.

penny for your thoughts? (payment will be made via PayPal or in Bitcoin)

5/22/2017 5:00:08 PM

The confederacy lost, we should get over it...

I dunno, I mean, if you put it to a ballot in some States/Cities, there'd still be segregation and lynchings.

5/22/2017 5:15:10 PM

^

5/22/2017 5:24:20 PM

Segregation, lynchings, and city maintained statues are wayyyyy different things. Not inferring we put those other things on a ballot. I'm all about #TeamSouthLost, but to me, the people should be allowed to vote on things of this magnitude, to me.

5/22/2017 5:58:20 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Quote :

"... The prevailing ideas entertained by [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the 'storm came and the wind blew, it fell.' Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science..."

- Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, March 21, 1861

Quote :

"After the Confederacy's defeat at the hands of the Union in the Civil War and the abolition of slavery, Stephens attempted to retract the opinions made in his speech. Denying his earlier statements that slavery was the Confederacy's cause for leaving the Union, he contended, to the contrary, that he thought that the war was rooted in constitutional differences."

Take the monuments down, and put them in a museum so that they can be viewed by choice, not by obligation.

[Edited on May 22, 2017 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ]

5/22/2017 5:59:54 PM

I would suggest the existence of these monuments are an offense to tens of thousands of people who died trying to prevent the country from cracking in half.

Which in the grand scheme of things Germany might have won the First World War.

5/22/2017 6:31:50 PM

Gaul lost, get over it! Tear down that Vercingetorix statue in Paris immediately!

5/22/2017 8:14:41 PM

I'm not convinced that statues of Confederate generals in prominent spaces even qualify as "history" in any meaningful sense-- beyond the basic "they lived in the past."

After a walk around New Orleans, someone who didn't know their history might've been left with the impression that General Beauregard was man who must've fought for a noble cause.

Ideas for a monument dedicated to history (rather than one that glorified minor players who fought for the wrong side):

-Unnamed slave, being freed of shackles
-Frederick Douglass
-Abraham Lincoln
-Contrite Confederate soldiers turning in their arms

5/22/2017 8:51:51 PM

Put the shit in museums for "history" and "remembrance". People who fought for slavery don't deserve statues out in public.

[Edited on May 22, 2017 at 8:53 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2017 8:53:24 PM

Quote :

"Gaul lost, get over it! Tear down that Vercingetorix statue in Paris immediately!"

That analogy only works if "they lost" was the rationale driving the Confederate statues' removal.

5/22/2017 9:17:05 PM

Most of the statues weren't even put up until the 1950s and 60s when racist white people wanted to send the message to uppity colored that their freedom isn't welcome.

If we can put the statues up because white people want to show how racist they are, we should just as easily pull the statues down to show how not-racist people are. If you feel like your heritage is under attack because a monument that was literally erected to promote racism is being trashed, then you need to reevaluate your heritage.

Also, southern pride should be symbolized by literally anything else besides the confederacy-- we were doing so good to push the "Hospitality" thing all those years, we have sweet tea, we have venus flytraps, i'll even stand by pickup trucks, guns, and jorts as things southerners should be proud of.

5/23/2017 1:45:53 AM

Naw man, never jorts.

5/23/2017 2:45:31 AM

so....with all that said...

what say you about the monuments in downtown raleigh?

5/23/2017 9:42:00 AM

What bothers me is the excuse that the monuments are there to pay homage to people (southern Americans) fighting for their beliefs. But their beliefs were abhorrent.

We wouldn't put monuments up for people from ISIS? And they are certainly fighting for their beliefs. So why should we have any Confederate monuments?

I fully agree with the museum suggestion but we should not be celebrating people that fought for slavery (yea I know, states' rights - the state's right to own slaves, though).

5/23/2017 9:48:23 AM

^^ it's time is coming

put a biscuit on a flag and that can be the new Southern Pride flag

[Edited on May 23, 2017 at 9:50 AM. Reason : .]

5/23/2017 9:49:15 AM

GIVE ME BISCUITS OR GIVE ME DEATH DIABEETUS!!!

5/23/2017 9:58:38 AM

Quote :

"Most of the statues weren't even put up until the 1950s and 60s when racist white people wanted to send the message to uppity colored that their freedom isn't welcome."

To be fair, a large number of them (I believe almost all in Raleigh) were put up at the turn of the century. Not surprisingly the two periods correlate with Plessy v Ferguson and Brown v Board of Education.

5/23/2017 10:13:53 AM

I think there is an argument to be made that monuments to southern leaders should be taken down but anything that stands as a memorial to the dead should remain (see the one by the capital building in Raleigh as an example).

The political and military elite that initiated secession arguably coerced and manipulated the populace into a cause that was against their best interests and mostly benefited slave holders and those holding the economic capital should not be celebrated. That said the way this is being handled isn't probably the best and will just lead to more fighting over it.

One of the big problems is how we teach and view the civil war in this country though. Yes slavery was the primary driving factor but it ignores that this is still a war between people of the same nation in favor or the simplistic North=Good, South=Bad narrative. Combine that with the complete botching of the reconstruction era and you create a reality of southerners as second class citizens that perpetuates to this day. That creates a resistance even to some rational arguments for removal because they feel imposed by outsiders. On the other side the approach becomes sanctimonious and the motives are less about the justifiable reasons for removal and just become victor's justice.

The question then becomes where the line is drawn and who gets to make the decisions. Do we get rid of statues of Andrew Jackson too now? If as southerners we demanded that all the monuments to Sherman get torn down would there not be an argument that these glorify a war criminal?

5/23/2017 10:17:24 AM

The Andrew Jackson question is a good one. The man was not honorable, and he did more harm to a specific race in our country, arguably, than any other president. Where do we draw the line? Several of the early presidents were slave owners. They owned people. Why should we allow their statues and busts around? Mt. Rushmore anyone?

5/23/2017 10:25:55 AM

^now you're going off the deep end. the slope ain't that damn slippery.

5/23/2017 10:30:56 AM

Quote :

"http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/transcript-of-new-orleans-mayor-landrieus-address-on-confederate-monuments"

speech from new orleans mayor on the subject.

5/23/2017 10:38:55 AM

Jackson didn't commit treason, so that can be a different thread.

5/23/2017 10:39:54 AM

Quote :

"Jackson didn't commit treason, so that can be a different thread."

This was exactly my kinda point above. As long as we keep this ideology as the war being just between "traitors" and "patriots" instead of a true civil war with all the baggage that comes with it, you're going to have resistance regardless of how justified the removal might be on moral grounds.

5/23/2017 10:50:26 AM

sorry for the fucked up link
http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/transcript-of-new-orleans-mayor-landrieus-address-on-confederate-monuments

5/23/2017 12:17:12 PM

THEY ARE ALREADY ON DISPLAY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS COURTYARD

5/23/2017 12:30:32 PM

^^cool speech.

yeah, as a black dude, the thought of explaining the Confederacy and the monuments glorifying it to my kids doesn't really bring me excitement and I certainly don't expect it to provide inspiration to them. going the "history" route to remind us not to repeat mistakes..."that statue is a piece of history to remind us that white people enslaved people that look like us because at one point in time they thought that was ok, but they all changed their views of darker people being property because slavery became illegal". I imagine this will inspire instant side-eye towards white folks. talk about dividing our nation...

5/23/2017 2:05:30 PM

Maybe Egypt should remove the Egyptian monuments because they were built by slaves?

5/23/2017 4:53:02 PM

^ We should put a big Star of David on them to make up for it.

5/23/2017 5:20:01 PM

Quote :

"The Andrew Jackson question is a good one. The man was not honorable, and he did more harm to a specific race in our country, arguably, than any other president."

Jackson sucked in a lot of ways. I'm all for not putting his face everywhere. It burns me that he's on the $20.

Quote :

"Where do we draw the line? Several of the early presidents were slave owners. They owned people. Why should we allow their statues and busts around? Mt. Rushmore anyone?"

Most of those slave-owning founders had significant redeeming qualities and look much better when viewed in the context of their times.

But hey-- let's discuss it. We're not discussing whether we should erase them from the history books; we're discussing whether we should revere them in our public places.

5/23/2017 6:53:24 PM

Should Silent Sam be torn down too? Serious question as a vocal group wants it gone from such a progressive campus as a symbol of oppression. But rather than celebrating Lee, Jackson, etc it is a monument to all the students who fought and died for a lost cause. After all, UNC lost more students in the Civil War than any other university. Also lets not forget that UNC used to be a fucking boys club of racists and white supremacists, with the teams being the White Knights before they got the Tar Heels, which is also somewhat rooted in Civil War history.

Methinks they should change the mascot and tear down Silent Sam. And the Dean Dome.

5/23/2017 8:51:43 PM

I'm cool with every Confederate statue being torn down

was at a wedding two weeks ago which was right next to a Confederate statue, and one of the groomsmen, who is black, wasn't very happy about it, and hilariously told the wedding planner to "bring them drinks to have next to the statue of that racist dude down there"

5/23/2017 9:17:32 PM

Quote :

"Maybe Egypt should remove the Egyptian monuments because they were built by slaves"

Last I checked, Egypt wasn't a part of these United States. Any other nonsensical things you want to contribute to continue proving your idiocy? Rabble rabble liberals rabble rabble

5/23/2017 11:52:53 PM

Quote :

"Most of those slave-owning founders had significant redeeming qualities and look much better when viewed in the context of their times."

Like the quality to control other humans? Wow, never thought I'd see TSB upholding the virtues of human slavery.

5/24/2017 6:21:26 AM

Quote :

"Maybe Egypt should remove the Egyptian monuments because they were built by slaves?"

Nobody is saying that things should be torn down because they are built by slaves. Lots of things in almost every country were built at least partially by slaves, including the White House.

[Edited on May 24, 2017 at 8:20 AM. Reason : ]

5/24/2017 8:20:05 AM

maybe just take down the statue of the person who dedicated his life and fought for specifically pursuing continued slavery based on race. it's not that complicated, JCE.

[Edited on May 24, 2017 at 9:12 AM. Reason : ]

5/24/2017 8:57:51 AM

^ Which person is that? Went back through the thread, but maybe I missed where this person was named.

5/24/2017 9:01:38 AM

Quote :

"given the recent removal of Confederate monuments in New Orleans"

[Edited on May 24, 2017 at 9:11 AM. Reason : Robert E. Lee if you must have a name.]

5/24/2017 9:10:37 AM

Quote :

"it's not that complicated, JCE."

You're right, history isn't that complicated, that's why everyone in New Orleans and the country and this thread is clearly in agreement that Lee was a bad man and the civil war was only about slavery.

5/24/2017 9:23:03 AM

I thought most historians/scholars now agreee that the pyramids were not built by slaves? It's just a myth perpetuated by hollywood and fakenews and the sheep just buy it.

5/24/2017 9:33:35 AM

It's not settled 100%, but the working theory is that is correct.

Not that it would matter in the guys point anyway.

(Also, I don't really care about the monuments. Anything to remind the people who celebrate them that they lost is fine by me.)

5/24/2017 10:49:55 AM

I think that's kind of a stretch...

5/24/2017 10:56:18 AM

Quote :

"You're right, history isn't that complicated, that's why everyone in New Orleans and the country and this thread is clearly in agreement that Lee was a bad man and the civil war was only about slavery."

not sure I am getting your point here...

[Edited on May 24, 2017 at 11:03 AM. Reason : also, the pyramids ain't 'murica. Egypt can do with them what they wish, for all I care.]

5/24/2017 11:01:19 AM

Sorry, so easy to be a dick online, just trying to make the point that I think by you saying it's not that complicated is over simplifying what many would agree is actually a very complicated/nuanced history re Lee and the reasons for the civil war.

5/24/2017 11:10:01 AM

I didn't say it wasn't complicated, I said it wasn't that complicated (Egypt and shit??? )

I also understand that there are differing points of view re: Lee/Confederacy/Civil War. Where do you stand on it?

5/24/2017 11:59:23 AM

If we are going to look at these statues as men, we need to look at these men and take them in the context of the time in which they lived.

It is probably an odd concept these days, but up until Reconstruction (and some would maybe even up until after WWI) many Americans identified more with their state than their country. Lee was not a secessionist. As a matter of fact, he had already been asked to lead the Union Army, just prior to the VA legislature's pro secession vote. When he heard VA went with the Confederacy, he had to decline.

5/24/2017 1:07:20 PM

Quote :

"he had to decline"

which implies he had a choice. twas a gamble and he lost.

5/24/2017 1:45:57 PM

Some German Americans went home to fight for Germany during WW1 and WW2. Are we putting up a statue for them????

5/24/2017 1:57:31 PM

Quote :

"I thought most historians/scholars now agreee that the pyramids were not built by slaves? It's just a myth perpetuated by hollywood and fakenews and the sheep just buy it."

Pretty sure most, if not all, of the Pyramids were built before the Egyptians enslaved the Jews. But they were put to work building other fantastic engineering achievements.

5/24/2017 4:11:42 PM