Can someone explain to me what this is?
10/21/2014 6:28:45 PM
A bunch of children bitching at each other on twitter about nothing. Both sides of this debate are ridiculous.
10/21/2014 6:31:08 PM
I wouldn't call pointing out the pervasive misogyny in video games "ridiculous."
10/21/2014 6:50:34 PM
There are valid points to be made on both sides of the debate, but the way it's played out has been ridiculous.
10/21/2014 6:55:52 PM
The only point that the GGers have is that sometimes journalists can be biased, which has absolutely nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with the fact that journalists are human.
10/21/2014 7:02:09 PM
And the main point of anti GGers is that a lot of people on the internet and twitter are terrible, which has absolutely nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with anonymous/troll culture on the internet.
10/21/2014 7:08:04 PM
What are the two sides?
10/21/2014 7:10:26 PM
I also have no clue what this is about, and I'm beginning to think it's an argument about nothing.
10/21/2014 7:11:42 PM
Hard to explain since neither side is unified in either goals or motivations.It's like OWS all over again, except exclusively on the internet this time.
10/21/2014 7:13:37 PM
Is it that women gamers are complaining about the way women are treated in video games? I'm not a huge gamer but the only one that comes to mind to be a big problem is GTAX. I guess Red Dead Redemption was kinda bad too, but there was also some strong female characters in that game. But I really don't game enough to know either side of the story.Most gamers are guys and sex sells, so...
10/21/2014 7:14:32 PM
there are a number of different things going on1) Feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian has made a series of videos called "Tropes vs. Women," in which she examines video game tropes that portray women negatively, such as the huge prevalence of the death of a female character used to develop the character of/motivate the male protagonist, etc. etc. She's received numerous death threats from people who seemingly think she is trying to censor games or take their violent video games away. This is a patently false overreaction. She is not calling for an instant halt in the production of any games, she is just raising awareness of the potentially harmful attitudes toward women reinforced by videogames. She is presenting some things that she feels might be worth thinking about. She reiterates time and time again that it's possible to find value in and enjoy a game while still pointing out some of it's flaws, yet people still try to paint her as someone who doesn't even like games and as a feminist boogeywoman. Also, videogames obviously don't directly cause things like extreme violence and school shootings, as her detractors love to point out, but it is quite possible that they can affect something as subtle and subconscious as an attitude.example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDAand this is a talk she gave about the shit that's been thrown at her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah8mhDW6Shs2) Indie Developer Zoe Quinn released a game a while back called Depression Quest, which a bunch of haters quickly decreed "Not a game," as it's a text-based thing that is about depression and not particularly "fun,"/does not contain guns or zombies. A bit later, an ex-boyfriend of hers posted a long rant accusing her of cheating on him with games industry people in exchange for favorable reviews for her game. This has been debunked, as no one she allegedly slept with has actually reviewed her game. So, they claim it's about "Ethics" in games journalism, when really it started as being about this developer's sex life, which some gamers disapproved of. If it was really about ethics in journalism, this movement would have started long, long ago when it was obvious that major games publishers were essentially paying games sites and magazines for favorable reviews. A tiny text adventure developer has no effect on the hardcore games industry at large. A major publisher's shitty game getting an inexplicable, payola 9.5 after gifting the reviewer an xbox and the game and early access to footage, etc. might. Anyway, people have been doxxing her and harassing her and her boyfriend for months.interview yesterday: http://www.msnbc.com/ronan-farrow-daily/watch/exclusive--woman-who-sparked-gamergate-3453271715493) A series of opinion pieces were written on sites like Gamasutra, musing that the "Gamer" stereotype is dead. These were actually pretty positive articles on how gaming has become ubiquitous and for everyone (equivalent to how a film writer long ago might have declared the "moviegoer" identity dead since everyone goes to the movies now), but a bunch of hardcore gamers seemed to not actually read the articles and take this as an insult and a threat. They launched campaigns of harassment against these bloggers, and bombarded their sponsors into pulling ads from the site. Which is pretty ironic of them, to decry censorship and tout free speech while attempting to silence any opinion different from their own.4) A lot of gamergaters are calling for objective game reviews, which is completely ridiculous. reviews are opinions by nature. if gamers want games to be considered art, they have to be reviewed and criticized like other art and media is. otherwise, games are mere products and their reviews belong in Consumer Reports. Rather than use a little discernment and subscribe to a different website if they don't like a reviewer, they've been basically calling for the head of any writer they disagree with.and there's a lot more. anyway here's a nice roundup.http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844and here's Chris Kluwe being radhttps://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-piss-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6[Edited on October 21, 2014 at 8:38 PM. Reason : .]
10/21/2014 8:17:47 PM
My understanding from the bits and pieces I've read when it comes up is this:Some ex-boyfriend of Zoe Quinn, a female game developer, accused her of sleeping with a games journalist (or possibly multiple journalists) to get positive coverage of her indie game, Depression Quest. Somehow this ignites a firestorm of controversy, despite the fact her game is free. Since a woman is involved, misogyny, rape threats, and death threats run rampant.The initial allegations (as far as I can tell) were proven false. However, people are trying to change the focus to game journalists in general and how they're not trustworthy, since many of them are too friendly with the companies/developers they cover. Still, the vitriol and misogyny is still rampant and drowning any reasonable discourse. Also, Anita Sarkeesian releases another Tropes vs. Women video, which sends the shitheads into another frenzy. Eventually Anita and Zoe end up having to leave their homes due to threats and reportedly other women have left the industry because they became targets.I'm still not sure why the whole thing is still going, all anyone talks about anymore is the rape and death threats. If GamerGaters want a real conversation about 'corruption', they need to try again at a later date.*This is all based off stuff I've read from forum posters at various times it's come up.EDIT: Dammit I typed all that up and Bweez summed it up pretty well.I think this summary is pretty good:http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-closer-look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games/[Edited on October 21, 2014 at 8:48 PM. Reason : .]
10/21/2014 8:27:56 PM
Wow what a stupid stupid thing to get worked up over.
10/21/2014 8:43:36 PM
@Bweez1) Anita is this decade's Jack Thompson. http://gamesided.com/2014/09/08/sarkeesian-truth-part-1-straw-feminist-trojan-horse-censorship/2) I don't really give a shit about Zoe Quinn, but you're glossing over things like the Wizardchan thing and The Fine Young Capitalists game jam. At the very least Quinn is a pretty shitty person. But the focus on her is a pretty big reason why much of GamerGate is stupid, yes.3) "Gamer" is generally consiered short for "gaming enthusiast" not "person who plays a game." Whatever you want to call them, it's still an example of gaming sites demonizing their own audiences. Everyone might watch movies these days, but people who visit A.V. Club website and read Empire magazine are not the people who watch one movie on TNT every other weekend but the people who are movie enthusiasts.. Similarly, whether you want to call them "gamers" "hardcore gamers" or "misogynist neckbeard basement dwelling shitlords" the people who read games journalism are the ones who are willing to pay $50-60 for a game, not those who play 5 minutes of Kim Kardashian Hollywood and Candy Crush every day.4) Mostly agree, but there's a point to be made that when you're assigning a numeric review things like fun gameplay and good mechanics trump things like positive gender message messaging. Not that there isn't a place for that, but probably not in the final score. Kind of like a movie that has a good message but poor acting and directing.
10/21/2014 10:16:08 PM
1) You are truly delusional if you believe that. "Hey, lets think a tiny bit critically about tropes during some 20 minute youtube videos." is not remotely comparable to filing actual litigation and calling for actual government censorship. She wants games to be better for everyone by not defaulting to lazy writing so often. This does not even approach the same ballpark or sport as actual "censorship." 2) I don't buy that she's a shitty person at all. She had problems in a relationship but that is private and not relevant. I don't give a shit about the wizardchan thing. That's a he said/she said complete with some wonderful mspaint conspiracy theory drawings and pointless semantic arguments. TFYC thing is equally convoluted as fuck with multiple sides, ie http://imgur.com/a/KEtcp.3) That's all well and good (not really [misogynist attitudes deserve criticism]), but Gamasutra is a gamedev blog. It's not even for the people who cried/lied to intel that they were its target audience. That piece was merely opining to other gamedevs that maybe they don't have to fall over themselves to only ONLY cater to the classic image of a "gamer" so much anymore. And this is all beside the point. These are editorials, opinion pieces. People who constantly deride "SJWs's" supposed misplaced outrage ad nauseum can't take 350 words of criticism? People so worried about "censorship" must squash all dissenting opinion?4) "Final scores" are arbitrary, imaginary internet numbers. I get that people are upset about the whole metacritic, you get this pay raise if you get over an 86 bullshit incentive if that's even a real issue, but that is 100% on the development studios and publishers. If a writer wants to dock a game a half an imaginary point, or 6 imaginary points, for what he or she perceives to be too many gratuitous woman murders and you don't like this point dockage, use your brain and decide maybe this reviewer isn't for you. This is why there multiple reviewers. We didn't call for Roger Ebert's job when he refused to award The Human Centipede even zero stars. We could go read A.O. Scott's review, or whatever. Like, who are these people fighting for? Do they think the SJW opinions are going to poison their brains? Do they need to defend the poor, defenseless $million Hitman games from the opinion of one writer that might bring its all-important metatomatometer down .3 points? If games want to be art, they have to take serious criticism, which sometimes involves *gasp* feminist and social critique. "I feel that resorting to this damsel in distress trope was lazy writing/The camera swooshing and zooming in for better Bayonetta ass and tit shots seems awkward and unnecessary to me" is perfectly valid criticism. If a 16 year old male gamer thinks the camera swooshing and zooming in for better Bayonetta ass and tit shots sound rad and necessary then great, he can go play the game or go read a review that holds his hand and agrees with him if he must. He doesn't need to launch a fucking campaign to make AMD pull actual money from Polygon and its probably struggling, probably not-very-well-paid writers. Its negative framing in a review is not the end of the world for anyone or anything involved (except the reviewer, if some of #gg had their way). And a lot of people like reading viewpoints like this. Again, if we only review and critique mechanics and graphics then game reviews might as well be sequestered into Consumer Reports along with the latest fucking Roomba review./ramble[Edited on October 21, 2014 at 11:21 PM. Reason : .]
10/21/2014 11:14:35 PM
video game journalism is serious business
10/21/2014 11:18:13 PM
^^^You're falling into the conspiracy theory "we are the marginalized majority" trap.^^Is dead on correct. The mental gymnastics required to even half-heartedly believe the theory of Gamergate is staggering. I'll admit to being intrigued when the AnitaZ and Zoe stuff first came to light. But after looking at the guys leading the charge, it very very quickly went into tinfoil hat land. The reality is that "gamer culture" is extremely misogynist, racist, homophobic and juvenile. It's really, really sad that so many kids (guys and girls) are growing up thinking that "gamer speak" is appropriate and acceptable.I was shocked at PAX this year with the insanely sexist language, attitudes and behavior of the teenage and young adult guys there. It was absolutely cringe-inducing. I know I wasn't (and probably still aren't) the most politically correct or feminist person in the world, but it's really really sad.
10/22/2014 12:07:39 AM
10/22/2014 12:21:04 AM
^^ I'm actually not. I don't really care much about Gamergate's goals and I wish it was over so everyone would just move on. I only "defend" the "movement" when everyone lumps all gamers together.^ What is misogynistic about that statement? If I said Mel Gibson is a shitty person would that be casual misandry? @ Bweez, if you didn't notice on your #4 I said "mostly agree" so I don't disagree with that ramble at all. I didn't have a problem with that Bayonetta score that people were so upset about. My issue (and again, it's only a slight annoyance. Not something I would actually join a hashtag campaign over) is things like this:http://www.polygon.com/2014/1/15/5311568/game-of-the-year-2013-gone-homeGone Home is a nice way to spend a couple of hours sure, but game of the year? Like you said, it's not something to get worked up about and I can just go to a different site (which I do), but I might as well point out an annoyance when I see one.[Edited on October 22, 2014 at 7:42 AM. Reason : ]
10/22/2014 7:40:31 AM
you're a fool if you think this has to do with gaming at all.you're a fool if you think there is a 'right' side to any of this.This entire shitstorm is just a platform for various peoples agendas. It is very much in the interest of everyone who is actually involved in this that it all continues as it has.You're all eating this garbage up just like any of the mindless twats that watch E! or read the latest celebrity tabloid.[Edited on October 22, 2014 at 9:02 AM. Reason : *]
10/22/2014 9:00:42 AM
iirc some nasty ass chick slept with some neckbeards so that they would write a favorable review of her shitty indie game on their websites.
10/22/2014 9:24:32 AM
Don't really care about this shit storm but I must admit I was slightly perturbed when I read that Bayonetta review. That's only because Platinum is my favorite studio and their games aren't appreciated enough. When I thought about it some more, I was glad someone decided to break out of the Graphics/Sound/Gameplay/Controls template (don't forget to mention the frame rate). Polygon's review could lead to a paradigm shift in game criticism. I also had to admit to myself that playing the game makes me feel weird and tingly in the pants so if someone out there doesn't like it then so be it.Elizabeth wasn't even put on the cover of Bioshock Infinite. This was a bigger injustice in my opinion. Ignoring women altogether seems as worse or worse than over-sexualizing them. The publisher said it came down to a vote and we all know that's a bag of bullshit. Even if it was or wasn't a vote, this shows the prevalence of misogyny in gaming culture more than anything.Men and women both need their sex/power fantasies. There will always be a place for this but yeah gaming culture totally blows right now.vinylbanditAre you a gamer? I'm not trying to say that your opinion on this is wrong because I agree with most of you but I haven't seen you post in many game threads. What games do you like? Just curious.
10/22/2014 10:07:12 AM
A lot of people who aren't major gamers are following this, especially in the past week or two. I'm glad the toxic environment that's out there is finally getting some attention from the outside world.
10/22/2014 11:04:19 AM
^^^^ You're a fool.^^^^^ I don't see the problem with Gone Home being named game of the year (which is arbitrary) on one website. I literally don't see how this could possibly be a problem or an "issue." Are you worried this will trick some unsuspecting child - incapable of reading or looking at multiple sources - who only likes Gruff Space Marine Death Simulator 3000 into spending $6.74 on a humble bundle for a pack of games including one that might vaguely challenge his idea of what a "game" is and turn him lesbian?
10/22/2014 2:19:04 PM
10/22/2014 2:40:42 PM
how many fedoras and ounces of mt. dew do you have in arms reach at this moment?
10/22/2014 2:47:11 PM
m'lady
10/22/2014 3:22:28 PM
Editing to remove; its not worth the discussion and I don't actually want to fight with others who enjoy games.Ill just say that this entire situation is sad and upsetting because it is miring what is actually a great time in games. [Edited on October 22, 2014 at 3:55 PM. Reason : *]
10/22/2014 3:44:34 PM
girls suck ass at video games who gives a fuggI'm Krallum and I approved this message.
10/22/2014 4:02:41 PM
Can we get a mod to move this to Soap Box?!?!?
10/22/2014 4:05:01 PM
Yeah a mod will get to it sometime before 2015I'm Krallum and I approved this message.
10/22/2014 4:08:46 PM
is there a need for this to move to SoapBox? you all seem to be doing just fine here.
10/22/2014 4:16:48 PM
^^^^^I saw your pre-edit and don't agree with any of it but okay, getting into it is pretty pointless.I agree that it's a great time for games in some ways, despite everything.
10/22/2014 4:31:56 PM
i'm not a fan of overtly sexual/misogynistic games myself. but i don't let it bother me, i just go buy/play other games. wallets vote, and everybody's money is green.it's the same reason i don't buy a playboy magazine. i very much appreciate the female figure, but as a married man i'm not morally okay with viewing/using these kinds of materials. it's perfectly within someone's right to write a blog/post a video/whatever criticizing these things that they find offensive. it's also logically within someone's right to enjoy them and be responsible for whatever consequences there might be.why everybody gotta be mad?
10/22/2014 4:47:38 PM
10/22/2014 7:58:20 PM
10/22/2014 8:17:53 PM
10/22/2014 8:48:59 PM
The Artist was well acted, well shot, and well directed. I don't understand the comparison.
10/22/2014 9:02:45 PM
[it eschews what many consider a very important element of modern film]Gone home was well acted, well designed, well written, and many people enjoyed playing it. I don't understand the comparison to screen after screen of text.[Edited on October 22, 2014 at 9:13 PM. Reason : .]
10/22/2014 9:07:48 PM
10/22/2014 9:09:14 PM
Most movies don't feature game design, as far as I know.
10/22/2014 9:17:05 PM
10/22/2014 10:32:27 PM
[Edited on October 22, 2014 at 11:09 PM. Reason : ...]
10/22/2014 11:03:28 PM
Good post by Felicia Day. http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
10/23/2014 12:08:34 AM
I'm not gonna read about all this stupidity. Instead, i'll post a picture of my favorite female videogamer:
10/23/2014 12:31:17 AM
10/23/2014 2:07:42 AM
I've watched 4-5 of her videos now and I must say that I'm very impressed with her research. She must have had some help finding all these examples unless she played more games than I did in high school and college which is impossible. When it all comes down to it this is some of the most intelligent social criticism of gaming I've ever seen.Also I'd disagree that it is a great time for games because ...
10/23/2014 10:45:39 AM
^ you're not paying attention to games
10/23/2014 11:17:41 AM
So if I play games every day and read about them every day ... then ....I will say that I'm excited about the indie realm. I need to play The Stanley Parable and keep up with the releases a little better.[Edited on October 23, 2014 at 11:43 AM. Reason : .]
10/23/2014 11:33:52 AM
10/23/2014 11:42:42 AM