http://money.cnn.com/gallery/news/economy/2014/01/27/living-wage/index.html?iid=HP_LN

Honestly it sucks that he makes so little but on the flip side I have trouble feeling bad for this guy after reading about him and his wife just having their 4th kid.

If one were just scrapping by and not making a living wage why the fuck would you be having baby 3 and 4. Babies are not a right. If anything having more kids with his current income situation is neglectful to his 1st and 2nd kids. Perhaps without babies 2, 3, or 4 he would have time to attend community college, get a new skill, and $profit.

The other two people are the same way. Mid-20 somethings with 3-4 kids....

[Edited on January 27, 2014 at 8:56 AM. Reason : a]

1/27/2014 8:54:45 AM

catch you on the flip side, holmes

1/27/2014 8:58:02 AM

maybe he should get a new/second job?

1/27/2014 9:24:47 AM

Quote :

"Babies are not a right."

I'm thinking that this isn't universally agreed on.

1/27/2014 9:41:41 AM

he should just pull himself up by his bootstraps

1/27/2014 9:47:01 AM

Quote :

"I'm thinking that this isn't universally agreed on."

so how many babies is an individual entitled to?

1/27/2014 11:04:52 AM

Apparently any limits violate their human rights.

You have to let them be birthed, then kill them in the food riots and zombie outbreak later on.

1/27/2014 11:16:19 AM

except that poor people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they can't afford them. also, poor people shouldn't have access to affordable birth control. so really, poor people shoulnd't be allowed to have sex.

1/27/2014 11:29:41 AM

A big part of freedom is accepting the consequences and logical outcomes of your choices and decisions.

1/27/2014 12:00:59 PM

[Edited on January 27, 2014 at 12:03 PM. Reason : Not a double post]

1/27/2014 12:01:35 PM

[Edited on January 27, 2014 at 12:03 PM. Reason : hmm, weird triple post]

1/27/2014 12:02:53 PM

I think HUR is saying that they should supplement their income by scrapping metal

1/27/2014 12:10:20 PM

HURs parents shouldn't have bothered having him if they can't even teach him proper spelling.

1/27/2014 2:41:03 PM

Agreed with the OP.

I see this even more being in the Middle East. Like, people earning $250/month, so lets say due to no taxes and a cheaper standard of living, that's equivalent to $750 in the US, having 3, 4, 5, even 6 kids. It is beyond crazy. Well, in many or most Arab/Asian/African/poor countries, the woman basically gets no say in when or how many kids to have. Do so many American women also have no say in that issue?

And whenever I bring it up, the answer is the typical Muslim answer of "livelihood is from Allah" or "our prophet told us to have more kids" or "Allah tells us not to stop ourselves from having kids because we might be scared that we can't provide for them".

I mean pics of dirt poor families (less than $2/day) in South Asia, Africa, and other poor regions with as many as 6-8 kids all over the Internet. And then so many of them end up selling a few of their kids, especially little daughters to older men in marriage, or to families to work as maids. This also factors in to the child sex trade. Totally sad situation. But, one hopes, Americans are smarter and more resourceful and responsible and prudent not to keep on having kids compared to Africans and Asians, if they are poor...?

1/27/2014 3:03:41 PM

1/27/2014 3:09:43 PM

Quote :

"except that poor people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they can't afford them. also, poor people shouldn't have access to affordable birth control. so really, poor people shoulnd't be allowed to have sex."

I never have understood the traditional GOP rhetoric lambasting welfare queens one second than shooting down free contraceptives that would prevent so many welfare queens.

If anything free contraceptives prevent unwanted welfare babies and reduce unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions.

Last night my parents were watching NBC news and they were showing some school initiative where parents bring their kids back to school for what is essentially a dinner and study session. Great idea to help kids in "troubled" neighbors. What caught me off guard was that one of the families interviewed was two children being raised by their 68 Yr old Great Grandmother. Where the fuck is mom and grandma?

[Edited on January 27, 2014 at 4:41 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on January 27, 2014 at 4:41 PM. Reason : f]

1/27/2014 4:39:17 PM

maybe they were at work, or maybe they died in a car accident, or maybe the were out scrapping

1/27/2014 4:54:15 PM

^^ Comprehensive sex education and universal access to birth contr would obviously be the best way to prevent pregnancies. But nobody in power actually cares about reducing abortion. They only care about using it as a wedge issue to get the dumbass Tea Partiers to vote for them.

1/27/2014 5:00:32 PM

The depo-provera shot ought to be offered in schools, just like the flu shot.

1/27/2014 5:06:11 PM

He needs another job. And hopefully his oldest will be of working age soon.

Problem solved, America.

You're welcome.

1/27/2014 9:03:44 PM

The free contraception amuses me. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind tax money going to paying for it, if it were used... But let's be real, the people who choose to have 4 kids when making 20k a year probably aren't going to take it correctly. How effective will it be? How many pregnancies will it prevent? How many will it cause because they don't take it properly, and gives a false sense of security?

1/27/2014 9:52:21 PM

I too, found these case studies infuriating today.

1/27/2014 10:22:29 PM

Quote :

"Comprehensive sex education and universal access to birth contr would obviously be the best way to prevent pregnancies. But nobody in power actually cares about reducing abortion. They only care about using it as a wedge issue to get the dumbass Tea Partiers to vote for them."

I never understood how the tea party became the platform for the socially conservative right wing batties. I thought the original tea party platform was less government, less taxes, and less regulation.

Now the tea party is "less government" except for when it comes to issues that one doesn't agree with i.e. abortion, marijuana laws, etc.

1/27/2014 10:25:13 PM

Shouldn't those on the right welcome the birth of poor children? In all likelihood, these kids, who have access to nothing, will grow up to only be able to provide cheap, non-unionized, physical labor.


You lipstick conservatives need to stop hating the poor, and start exploiting them like your forefathers did.

1/27/2014 11:51:45 PM

Quote :

"Shouldn't those on the right welcome the birth of poor children? In all likelihood, these kids, who have access to nothing, will grow up to only be able to provide cheap, non-unionized, physical labor."

but they vote democrat

which is why the democrats (the politicians, not the voters) don't actually care about the affordable/free birth control thing. they just use it as an issue to get votes. same as how the republicans use the abortion issue. they don't actually give a damn, they just know that it gets votes.

1/28/2014 6:40:42 AM

Quote :

"except that poor people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they can't afford them. also, poor people shouldn't have access to affordable birth control. so really, poor people shoulnd't be allowed to have sex."

Typical argument from a Democrat. Tell me, when you say poor people don't, or shouldn't have access to affordable birth control, what are the county health departments doing when they give it out for nearly free?

Hell, my wife and I couldn't afford 4 kids on our salaries. But we also know that while we could provide a really safe, fun, loving and interesting life for 1 or 2 kids, we couldn't for 3 or 4. So we're going to stick with 1 or 2.

Oh and

Quote :

"A big part of freedom is accepting the consequences and logical outcomes of your choices and decisions."

1/28/2014 7:29:31 AM

Freedom to make your kids lives a living hell.

1/28/2014 7:53:07 AM

Quote :

"ypical argument from a Democrat. Tell me, when you say poor people don't, or shouldn't have access to affordable birth control, what are the county health departments doing when they give it out for nearly free?"

that's the republican argument, I was making fun of it. I think birth control should be easily accessible, but republicans think that makes people evil sinners and teaches our children that sex can be fun and enjoyable.

Quote :

"but they vote democrat which is why the democrats (the politicians, not the voters) don't actually care about the affordable/free birth control thing. they just use it as an issue to get votes."

that can't possibly be what you actually think, is it?

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 8:18 AM. Reason : .]

1/28/2014 8:17:02 AM

Quote :

"same as how the republicans use the abortion issue. they don't actually give a damn, they just know that it gets votes."

do you believe this?

1/28/2014 8:32:33 AM

no, i didn't write that

1/28/2014 8:41:26 AM

^^ I'd believe it. I would not be surprised at all that politicians use the religious fervor of their constituents regarding issues like abortion, evolution in schools, and other "morally undesirables social policies" to rally the voters to help them get elected.

I'm sure there are some dumbass wingbats but I think lot of evolution critics pushing for creationism in school don't really think the earth is 6,000 years old. They just tote the party line to bolster their political position. Politicians would never lie

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 8:54 AM. Reason : a]

1/28/2014 8:53:39 AM

yes, i know you didn't write it. the question was whether or not you agree.

but i don't believe politicians care about anything more than getting elected and they will exploit and make up whatever issues they need to in order to get votes.

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 8:54 AM. Reason : ^exactly]

1/28/2014 8:53:49 AM

If you don't have common sense to survive on the wage you earn, then you won't have common sense to responsibly spend the increase in pay.

Having 4 kids on a shit salary does not qualify as common sense.

1/28/2014 9:03:45 AM

Quote :

"but i don't believe politicians care about anything more than getting elected and they will exploit and make up whatever issues they need to in order to get votes."

Just look at Romney. He "changed" a lot about himself and his political views when he ran for President. It's about pandering to your party, not about what you believe.

1/28/2014 9:07:18 AM

Presidents don't know what they can change until they get elected. Obama changed himself. It's the only way you can appeal to 300 million people.

Career congress people have no excuse though. But that is also voters' fault for just picking the name they recognize. "Democracy" is a farce.

We need liquid feedback type system : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiquidFeedback

1/28/2014 9:44:06 AM

Quote :

"The free contraception amuses me. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind tax money going to paying for it, if it were used... But let's be real, the people who choose to have 4 kids when making 20k a year probably aren't going to take it correctly. How effective will it be? How many pregnancies will it prevent? How many will it cause because they don't take it properly, and gives a false sense of security?"

Two god damn posts up...

Quote :

"The depo-provera shot ought to be offered in schools, just like the flu shot."

It is a shot given once every 3 weeks.

And yet, the argumentative negation of reality continues by conservatives:

Quote :

"Tell me, when you say poor people don't, or shouldn't have access to affordable birth control, what are the county health departments doing when they give it out for nearly free?"

Health departments do not ship out condoms to poor people in the mail. Normal people buy them from the grocery store or gas station. It's probably cheaper than making a special trip out to whatever kind of mythical free health service, which might not have them anyway.

1. Stop making welfare benefits dependent on the number of kids a family has
2. Give out free birth control of whatever the hell type people want

And birth rates among the poor will be kept extremely well in check.

But this won't do anything about the population growth on our planet. Because that population growth is almost entirely powered by the developing world.

1/28/2014 10:27:43 AM

Isn't the population of Africa like something ridiculous where 50% of the population is under 20.

No wonder there is so much genocide. The whole continent is a giant frat brawl gone wild.

1/28/2014 10:42:23 AM

Quote :

"Isn't the population of Africa like something ridiculous where 50% of the population is under 20."

Actually, I can't find these figures specifically. This is close:

http://www.geohive.com/earth/population_age_1.aspx

for ages 0-14 you get

435599165/1094736675 = 40 %

If you extrapolate from low ages up, multiply by 20/15, and that sets an upper bound of 53%. This is unlikely to be correct, since it's so sharply down-sloping. So mrfrog's conclusion is that the fraction of Africa's population 20 or under is probably almost exactly 50%.

1/28/2014 10:54:55 AM

Quote :

"so how many babies is an individual entitled to?"

First they should focus on having as many as they afford. IMO

I agree with OP, really hard to sympathize with people who say my mcdonald's wages aren't enough to feed my 4 kids...... why did you start having babies when you were working at McDonalds?


I don't think these crappy 3rd shift/fast food/ other assorted shitty jobs are meant to sustain a family of 5, der

1/28/2014 11:38:25 AM

Do folks in Africa just mate in the middle of the streets like wild animals. That proportion of 0-14 to 14-45 yr olds is unbelievable.

1/28/2014 11:40:04 AM

replace food stamps with "human kibble"... nutritionally complete food nuggets packaged in 50 lb bags. kids would have good nutrition, but parents would have more incentive to strive for something better.

1/28/2014 11:43:12 AM

^^^ What do you not understand about the fact that they have 4 children because they work at a low wage job?


Find more statistics at Statista

Lower income = more babies

Are you just trying to ignore this or something? I don't get you people.

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 11:44 AM. Reason : ^ ]

1/28/2014 11:43:38 AM

its a trend that's true in other countries too, I'm not sure welfare reforms would change anything

1/28/2014 12:08:00 PM

giving all the free birth control we want won't force people to responsibly use it. education IS key here... and i'm opposed to abstinence only... it doesn't give kids the full set of facts they need. (some would argue that abstinence only education IS effective for younger kids... give them reason to wait with the "sex is for adults" mentality)

but teens are going to have sex. they need to be educated about it when they do.

1/28/2014 12:13:05 PM

abstinence only education doesn't work, we know this. family planning education includes access to birth control and education both. It's also usually tied to other women's health issues, conservatives hate it.

1/28/2014 12:16:27 PM

Quote :

"What do you not understand about the fact that they have 4 children because they work at a low wage job?"

Are you really trying to say that having a shitty low wage job is the causation for having 4 children????

If anything the causation is reversed. The shitty job and 4 children is the effect of one's irresponsible life choices and/or lack of intelligence/willpower to act responsibly. Take this into consideration plus once one sinks below a certain income:kid ratio there is no longer any disincentive to having more. I remember being at the Taco Bell off Western while in college and hearing some woman bragging to her friend about having another baby thus getting more for her welfare check. This was an eye wakening moment for my once liberal views regarding poverty in that many act and make life choices to keep/put themselves in such an impoverished state.

Quote :

"abstinence only education doesn't work,"

Another example of the average so-called Conservative Republican living with their head in the sand. Perhaps if we teach kids that Sex is evil before marriage they will all grow up being model productive Christian married parents of the community [/sarcasm]

I honestly don't think I've ever heard a valid argument for "abstinence only" education. Usually they just a red herring argument where they start citing verses from the Bible.

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason : a]

1/28/2014 12:49:06 PM

Quote :

"its a trend that's true in other countries too, I'm not sure welfare reforms would change anything"

Do you mean in countries, or among countries?

The trend between different areas is clear. Rich nations have lower fertility rates. Rich states within India have lower fertility rates than the poor states. Same trend with China and it's provinces.

But in Afghanistan, which is a world-leader in high fertility rates, do we believe that the poorest of them are having the largest number of children? I'm not sure if I believe this. The fertility rates are only sky-high in highly agrarian areas to begin with. Then again, maybe the poorest families marry off their daughters the fastest.

I don't know...

1/28/2014 1:14:42 PM

Quote :

"^^^ What do you not understand about the fact that they have 4 children because they work at a low wage job?"

I'll take the bait.

so there is a correlation between low wages and # of babies? still explain to me why I would ever give a shit that the guy in OP can't make decisions to better his family in the long-term.

1/28/2014 1:19:13 PM

This isn't a teen pregnancy/access-to-birth-control issue. People can't afford to have children, but they still want to have children. In fact, people want children even more when they don't have shit going on in their lives. Plus, people aren't getting married anymore, the cost of living has shot up, and wages have stayed the same.

So...yeah...employers are going to continue paying them nothing/shorting them on hours, they're going to keep having kids, liberals are going to keep sharing their sob stories, and taxpayers are going to continue paying for these babies.

But it's worth it for the dirt cheap french fries.

Quote :

"HUR: This was an eye wakening moment for my once liberal views regarding poverty in that many act and make life choices to keep/put themselves in such an impoverished state."

LOLOLOLOLOL

Unless you're talking about when you were ten years-old, you have never had liberal views about poverty. Even former liberals don't say shit like this:

Quote :

"Do folks in Africa just mate in the middle of the streets like wild animals. That proportion of 0-14 to 14-45 yr olds is unbelievable."

And most people with college degrees are intelligent enough to understand the role of life expectancy in Africa's population distributions.

[Edited on January 28, 2014 at 1:23 PM. Reason : ^You don't have to give a shit. You're already paying for it.]

1/28/2014 1:21:18 PM

Quote :

"still explain to me why I would ever give a shit that the guy in OP can't make decisions to better his family in the long-term."

I believe the original link's position is that we should raise the minimum wage to help support this guy. Or we should be more liberal and elect Obama/Pelosi for a 3rd term. Something like that...

But maybe "not giving a shit" would be to stop with the welfare system altogether, since that be collectively not giving a shit. I'll be fine with getting rid of the welfare system as soon as we get rid of zoning, building requirements, health standards, food standards, and all the rest. Then the gutter rats can all rent tents within walking distance of our food joints, and defecate in the street.

At a point, the system just slips back into slavery. And the more poor children we have, the faster we get there. Anyway, I'm sure that the Walton family is 5 moves ahead of me in this thinking. Corporations used to pwn at human trafficking. They can retool.

I'm reminded of some food documentary where they followed workers at some Tyson chicken factory in NC. They were all illegal immigrants, and sometimes the management would call the authorities to raid one of their trailers, just to keep them in line. Going to the factory took like an hour long bus ride, which helped distance themselves from the workers (and some plausible deniability I'm sure). It seemed to me a pretty clear-cut form of human trafficking by corporations.

1/28/2014 1:44:47 PM