What in the world is going on out there on the left coast? Massive brain drain? The number of basic user interface problems I've seen in recent months is staggering...mistakes that even script kiddies don't make when they release warez. It can only be worse behind the scenes. Oh well, they'll be replaced soon enough.

11/12/2013 2:14:06 AM

they won't collapse.

mediocrity is the status quo, esp. since Jobs has passed.

11/12/2013 2:32:37 AM

How is that Tesla prediction working out for you?

As for Microsoft, it hit a 12 year high this week, so they must be doing something right.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that software quality is relative. You may find "basic" problems as you see them, but chances are the competitive products either have just as many, less functionality, are more expensive, or have made other tradeoffs.

If the problems you see are so basic, why not send the solution to Microsoft so they can fix the issues?

11/12/2013 4:39:48 AM

Quote :

"The number of basic user interface problems I've seen in recent months is staggering...mistakes that even script kiddies don't make when they release warez."

hello, filler statement that lacks substance and meaning.

11/12/2013 7:26:02 AM

Okay, simple example from last month.

The Windows 8.1 version update. The largest file most Windows users will have ever downloaded. The most publicized messianic update in the company's history. MS had a nice, robust, unobtrusive Windows update process that had worked for over a decade. But they obviously shoehorned it into the App store to get people to use it. A 3.5GB file download with a 100 pixel wide progress bar so small that progress is invisible. No percentage. No real world kB/s feedback. It doesn't have to be obtrusive...just a "more details" panel for anyone that might be interested. No way to pause. Can you multitask while it downloads? Do you risk trying and losing an hours worth of data? Oh no, it's locked up I think! How do I tell? What error code do I give tech support? How far into the process did it get before it stopped?



This is basic stuff. Like I said, warez installers do it better...and they give you cool midi techno music to listen to while you wait.

11/12/2013 11:08:24 AM

Quote :

"and they give you cool midi techno music to listen to while you wait."

must be trolling.

11/12/2013 11:24:05 AM

W I N D O W Z 8 . 1 By microsofzor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTP4XD_z7AU

Google's problems have been well-reported in the last week, so I won't rehash them. Leads me to believe they are hopelessly off the rails. I blame the echo chamber they live in, completely out of touch with the common user.

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2013 12:25:56 PM

Why are you so mad, smc? Did a Microsoft employee touch your kids or something?

11/12/2013 12:33:02 PM

Just disappointed, mostly. For some reason I thought things would be better by now. More standardized, more intuitive, more open.

Even Ubuntu is suing bloggers that speak ill of it. What is the world coming to?

11/12/2013 12:39:04 PM

I thought 8.1 update experience was about the smoothest thing possible. After clicking "Install" in the store I just went and did something else for about an hour, and when I came back to my PC, it was all done. Can't beat that. It's your problem if you want to sit there and stare at a bar for 15 minutes.

11/12/2013 12:50:16 PM

you need to find some new fake opinions to troll, your usual stuff is just tired.

11/12/2013 12:50:40 PM

Watch this space. This thread will become more relevant with each passing day.

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 1:42 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2013 1:20:23 PM

you're going to get banned

peace out

11/12/2013 1:22:13 PM

I don't see how I could possibly be trolling anyone, unless there are fanboys on this site. Are you a fanboy? I'm simply pointing out the obvious writing on the wall.

Besides, I envision this as a positive thread to discuss alternatives and replacements for the abovementioned failing companies.

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 1:30 PM. Reason : dtownral seems like a nice guy. He seems to be a lot like me, in fact.]

11/12/2013 1:28:34 PM

who is Warez and why is he being held captive?

Quote :

"when they release warez"

11/12/2013 1:32:07 PM

Is SMC the face of Tech Talk?

11/12/2013 2:35:46 PM

Ahh, so you're mad at Microsoft for giving a simple experience for a free operating system upgrade?

The experience you outline isn't a "basic user interface problem" at all. It's a difference in expectations.

Microsoft is moving towards the continuous update model of many many other products and companies. 8.1 is the first real move into that space for the OS. But Android and iOS are pushing there, as is Windows Phone.

In a world where apps (and OS's) just silently update themselves in the background and you no longer have to deal with the details, all of the things you just mentioned become completely irrelevant. You just happen to be butting up against traditional OS "upgrade" experiences and this new model.

You don't (for better or worse) upgrade Facebook or Gmail or Google. You just use the services and they update when they update. In that world, progress bars and download percentages don't mean much because the whole point is that you dont have to watch anymore.

11/12/2013 3:58:00 PM

Do they realize how slow the average internet speed in the U.S. is? How often connections just drop for no reason and interrupt downloads? And the increasing trend of tiny data limits, rendering the constant updating undesirable? Like I said; both companies suffer a disconnect from reality. The consumers that accept it do so only because they don't know any better. I see that the younger generation has a healthy distrust for Googlesoft, however, and that's a good thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8gUyMLyAMU

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 4:33 PM. Reason : groovy]

11/12/2013 4:26:44 PM

Quote :

"Do they realize how slow the average internet speed in the U.S. is? How often connections just drop for no reason and interrupt downloads? And the increasing trend of tiny data limits, rendering the constant updating undesirable? Like I said; both companies suffer a disconnect from reality"

do YOU realize how slow the average internet speed in the US is? (not very)
updates are generally more desirable than exploitable vulnerabilities

11/12/2013 4:33:13 PM

You all are posting in a troll thread. A very obvious troll thread.

Why?

11/12/2013 4:39:09 PM

You say updates, I say uploads of user data to government servers.

Denying knowledge of their obvious NSA cooperation was a mistake for both companies, I think, in the long run. They missed a chance for some really good PR, promoting a "we are on the side of our users" feel-good vibe. It would have been duplicitous, of course, but they need to take every action to reassure users that their cloud services are secure...which they aren't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4V3FJHTNHc

11/12/2013 4:40:06 PM

Quote :

"Do they realize how slow the average internet speed in the U.S. is? How often connections just drop for no reason and interrupt downloads? And the increasing trend of tiny data limits, rendering the constant updating undesirable? Like I said; both companies suffer a disconnect from reality. The consumers that accept it do so only because they don't know any better. I see that the younger generation has a healthy distrust for Googlesoft, however, and that's a good thing."

Do you realize that nearly every download manager and marketplace has asynchronous downloads, auto-resume and partial completions already?

Do you realize that "tiny" data limits are 250gb/month for consumer broadband, with even these large updates are using 1-2% of that?

And this trend isnt coming from Google or Microsoft or any other big player. These trends have come from startups. The big tech companies are JUST beginning to adopt these practices. There are MANY (hundreds) of companies that you use everyday who are pushing updates 20, 30 even 40 times PER DAY.

You are the one disconnected from reality here. This is not a future horizon, this is the state of the world today. The difference is, when you update OFTEN and continuously, the SIZE of the update decreases tremendously.

Think of it as "windows update" versus the store download. In the continuous world, updating an app shouldn't be redownloading the entire thing, but simply updating the tiny part that has changed. Admittedly the big companies (Apple, MS, Google) aren't there yet, but it will happen.

The whole metered connections and small bandwidth isn't just a consumer problem. It's a HUGE problem on the enterprise and commercial side of things as well, and the concerns you have aren't being ignored at all, it just takes time to get all the way there.

11/12/2013 4:42:19 PM

Noted. But we are indeed not there yet. Would it kill them to give a percentage and estimated download time? Or listen to consumer complaints in general?

The basic functionality of both companies core products is in jeopardy due to a lack of common sense oversight, as is the captive audience both enjoy at the moment.

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 4:51 PM. Reason : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWB4TbGUCo]

11/12/2013 4:49:46 PM

If you held your mouse over the progress bar you would have seen the percentage of completion.

11/12/2013 6:15:10 PM

Quote :

"In the continuous world, updating an app shouldn't be redownloading the entire thing, but simply updating the tiny part that has changed. Admittedly the big companies (Apple, MS, Google) aren't there yet, but it will happen."

that is actually how android updates apps. you only download the updated portion.

11/12/2013 6:30:02 PM

Quote :

"as is the captive audience both enjoy at the moment."

This is a myth. Captive audience today is at best a 1-3 yr proposition. Apple and Google and Facebook and Samsung and Microsoft and Sony have all proven over the past decade that as technology industries mature, the "vendor lock-in" we have all lived through in the past two decades is not only shrinking, but is effectively evaporating in front of our eyes.

In the span of 5 years we have seen THREE changes to the worldwide dominant mobile platform of choice. From Symbian to iOS to Android. "Captive audience" is now perception rather than reality.

Quote :

"Or listen to consumer complaints in general? "

You may not believe this, but they do. I know within Microsoft at least, during the Windows 7 cycle, Microsoft took in literally MILLIONS of pieces of individual feedback and actually used them as a significant input to planning decisions.

Within my area (Developer tools and services), we engage with customers literally every week in MANY different forms. There is truly an ethos forming within at least Microsoft that we engage with users early and often to deliver the best products possible.

That said, there are always competing interests. At the end of the day we still have to turn a profit, and that does present times when the ultimate desirable experience doesn't line up with the needs of the business. It happens, but its the exception to the rule and something continually being worked on improving.

The other piece is that the reality is that we are living in a continuous improvement world, which means unlike the old school days, it can be hard to see how the little tidbits of new you see today will crescendo into a completely new "whole" over time. I don't think any big product company has really figured out an elegant way to communicate this kind of thing externally to customers, and frankly there's still a lot of learning pain happening just being able to communicate the vision to employees effectively.

11/12/2013 6:35:43 PM

Quote :

"If you held your mouse over the progress bar you would have seen the percentage of completion."

Awesome! Thanks!

Now...can you tell me how to turn my computer off? It's been on for months now and is getting very hot. I know it's a conspiracy so I'll have to leave it on all the time so they can spy on me, but I covered my webcam in tin foil.

Aliyun will win the OS wars.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1828522-yahoos-alibaba-prepares-for-ipo-as-its-online-sales-are-set-to-explode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgiCSH_8oIM&list=PL3A654091BFF501A0

[Edited on November 12, 2013 at 7:01 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2013 6:58:05 PM

No one cares about the desktop world any more. Good programmers are not programming desktop applications. Source that shit to india.

11/12/2013 7:24:59 PM

^ false... plenty of people care about desktop


when you can craft a mobile experience on a mobile device itself without any third device, come back and tell me about how people don't use desktop anymore

11/12/2013 7:41:36 PM

Quote :

"Aliyun will win the OS wars."

Hahahaha, no it won't. In the same way that neither Amazon or Azure or Google will win the "OS wars". First, because there's no such thing anymore. There is no one platform. We live in a federated, multi-endpoint, heterogeneous world.

Second, Aliyun is just another in a long line of VPC (Virtual Private Cloud) and public cloud infrastructure providers like Amazon, Rackspace and others. Like EVERY other Alibaba business, they are all part of the same formula (and almost exactly match the business strategy and direction of Amazon only a few years ago). That is VOLUME and MARGIN optimization of commodity businesses. Every single space they are in is commodities of one form or another.

^Agree. The "desktop" is here to stay, it's just no longer the growth technology market. When analysts say the PC market is in decline they are talking about GROWTH not BASE. There are still tens of millions of new desktops and laptops added to the market every year. It's just that more NEW tablets and phones are added.

11/12/2013 9:44:56 PM

Microsoft is doing cool stuff with WP8 , it's just a shame no one cares

11/12/2013 9:54:28 PM

This thread should be moved to chit chat, at best.

11/12/2013 9:55:16 PM

Windows might not be where it used to be, but M$ is still doing fine with gaming consoles and getting into the tablet/smartphone market

and LOL at the #1 search engine and #1/2 smartphone company collapsing

11/12/2013 11:47:18 PM

I like that Outlook Web App now has the slick user interface of the new Outlook Mail

but not that Outlook Web App now takes so long to load

11/13/2013 7:43:27 AM

Quote :

"Now...can you tell me how to turn my computer off?"

Not sure if [s] or actual question....

Option 1: Power button, perhaps? (hardware)
Option 2 (touchscreen): Swipe from right, click settings, click power
Option 3 (non-touchscreen): Move mouse to bottom right corner, click settings, click power
Option 4 (non-touchscreen): Press windows key to get to the start screen, type the word 'shutdown' or 'turn off' (no quotes), click "turn off your pc", click power
Option 5 (non-touchscreen or touchscreen): Go to desktop, right click (or long press) the start button, click 'shutdown or sign out'
Option 6 (non-touchscreen): Press the windows key + R, type shutdown, click OK

There are a few more ways, but that should get you started.

11/13/2013 11:09:56 AM

Quote :

"Not sure if [s] or actual question...."

He's a troll. Of course he isn't serious.

11/13/2013 12:09:53 PM

Quote :

"type"

What is this "typing" thing, and why do I have to do it to access all of my settings? Shouldn't they be neatly organized in one place in a format I can browse with my mouse or finger? What if I don't know what to type? What if they call what I want to type something other than what I would call what I want to type? Is there a paper owners manual that tells you what to type? Or what you can type?

Thanks for the reply though. Ok, new question. How do I launch Solitaire?

[Edited on November 13, 2013 at 12:42 PM. Reason : I'm so confused.]

11/13/2013 12:33:54 PM

you can't, there is a well known bug that launching Solitaire in Win 8 will set your house on fire

11/13/2013 12:35:11 PM

Oh dear. They should release a 3.5GB update and fix that. But not really fix it.

11/13/2013 12:38:11 PM

Can someone please help smc turn his computer off.

11/13/2013 9:11:59 PM

lmao @ you guys entertaining him

11/13/2013 9:30:30 PM

I will say honestly, when i first installed win 8 on my girlfriends laptop. The easiest way i found to shut it down was a batch file on the desktop with "Shutdown -s -t 60"

Most of the people I know who have gone to windows 8, dislike the new interface (haven't played with windows 8.1 yet myself).

These users include some folks who use windows phone 8, as well as surface tablets... It just gets in the way of the work they are used to doing (and these are your regular office workers).

We moved a server to server 2012 the other day, and i honestly believe that somebody turned it off by mistake due to the new tile interface.

11/15/2013 1:17:19 AM

Yes, I use the batch file as well. Productivity in the offices I visit seems to only be possible if the IT guy creates custom icons for the tasks each worker does daily. No one I've spoken to knows how to find and run programs on their own. They have gone out and bought physical calculators and pen&paper because they don't know how to launch the windows calculator or notepad any more.(and which calculator program?) They also have great difficulty finding their personal documents folder.

It is difficult to interpret these changes to a successful flagship product as anything other than malicious...a deliberate effort to make the offline experience so unpleasant that cloud services are the only option.

If a user interface needs a tutorial it is a failure. Any toddler should be able to discover all possible interactions within the first few minutes simply by screwing around and following onscreen cues(not hidden behaviors or magic shortcut keys or typing like we're back on a damn commodore). Not that the double-click was ever particularly intuitive, but I feel like current offerings are regressive at best.

[Edited on November 15, 2013 at 2:28 AM. Reason : .]

11/15/2013 2:11:58 AM

Sounds like your users need to be introduced to MacOS, AMIRITE?

11/15/2013 4:44:20 AM

^^^That server should have been installed in Server Core configuration, with no GUI at all, for greater security and efficiency.

11/15/2013 6:02:21 AM

F Windows 8 with all it's full screen apps and tile bullshit

Windows 8 is to 7 as Vista was to XP, but worse.

11/15/2013 10:31:35 AM

its pretty awesome

11/15/2013 12:05:56 PM

^^ yes... but your assuming that any of the server guys know how to use a command line, powershell, or anything that doesn't have a button.

11/15/2013 6:55:20 PM

So I've been a Win8 UI curmudgeon as much as anybody. I removed all the modern apps from my work desktop and almost never use the start menu (everything is just pinned on taskbar).

But last few days I've been working with a new MS employee who came over in an acquisition, the guy is in his early 20's and uses a touchscreen laptop. And he uses the FUCK out of modern apps. Mail/Lync/Skydrive/Onenote and even runs chrome in the "Metro" mode.

I am shocked how goddamn fast he is. Like I just realized how old and stubborn I am, and even though I watch him do it, I still can't see how the hell I would be able to use everything in the same way.

But watching the guy all week work inside the new touch+modern+desktop as someone who is both smart and relatively new to the professional world, I am no longer suspect about how well all this stuff CAN work together.

I do agree with smc though, for your average office worker over 35, there is no hope in hell of them ever learning how to adopt Win8's modern app model for productivity work. But this isn't new, it's the same shift and abandonment that happened to the older half of the workforce back in the early 90's, between the computer literate (data entry, word processing, spreadsheets) and the crowd that just didn't get it (and never really learned it).

11/15/2013 10:01:21 PM

Quote :

"As for Microsoft, it hit a 12 year high this week, so they must be doing something right."

Yeah, the something right is the CEO is being ousted and the company is expected to make major changes in its business model. They must have been doing great.

11/18/2013 2:18:46 PM