8/13/2012 11:59:20 AM
What no free unicorn rides?
8/13/2012 12:11:33 PM
Free mustache rides got left out too.
8/13/2012 12:13:05 PM
Yeah. Who needs all that shit when I got guns and ammo rights.
8/13/2012 12:19:08 PM
I demand free butter and guns!
8/13/2012 12:51:04 PM
nice find, pryderi!
8/13/2012 1:20:24 PM
Positive rights vs. negative rights. This is pretty basic, Animal Farm, grade level bullshit.Try again junior.]
8/13/2012 1:55:47 PM
"Oh, the world owes me a living. Deedle dardle doodle deedle dum.
8/13/2012 2:10:23 PM
dont forget the right to ignore all job offers deemed beneath you.and also the right to destroy public property because its "cool."and the right to disperse your own protest after an extremely short period of time because you got bored with it and then claim the government infiltrated and dismantled it from the inside.and the ever important right to not wear shoes to class because that will get you taken seriously.
8/13/2012 2:10:51 PM
[Edited on August 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM. Reason : ]
8/13/2012 2:12:43 PM
Sounds like this can be summarized by:The right to steal other people's money to pay for your own shit.
8/13/2012 2:15:28 PM
Every liberal's rabid hate for Paul Ryan stems from one quote:
8/13/2012 2:18:30 PM
8/13/2012 2:26:14 PM
There are many things I dislike about him too.
8/13/2012 2:29:33 PM
So when are the states going to vote on amending the Constitution to include these rights?Oh, never?
8/13/2012 2:35:04 PM
8/13/2012 2:47:29 PM
I mean, memes are cool and everything, but you could tell me exactly what you think it means so I don't throw a snarky reply your way and get called a troll.Because that's all anyone does in this goddamn place.
8/13/2012 3:07:53 PM
Well, it might be better to introduce a case of unequal opportunity, and I think the most obvious example of opportunity is access to education: A rich person's son goes to a very good school (Either a private one or a public one in a very rich township) as a result of his parents' wealth. He gets a good education because of small teacher-student ratios, up-to-date technology, access to summer programs, etc.A poor person's son goes to a very shitty school, because the parents can't provide the cash for a private school and they can't afford a home in a better school district. This doesn't guarantee that the rich kid will be smarter than the poor kid, the poor kid could be a savant and the rich kid could be retarded, but over a statistical average it definitely will. Over the average, the schools will gain corresponding reputations that will influence how they stand out on a college applications.After all this, the two kids look into colleges. Already because of the prior things, the rich kid has an advantage over the poor kid, often without putting any additional work or effort in. Beyond that, let's just assume they both get accepted to a college. The poor kid has to choose between loans (a risk) or accruing scholarships to even entertain the idea of attending school, let alone a good one. The rich kid has no such risks or necessary effort (applying for scholarships), and probably has a strong application from his fancy school.That's an example of unequal opportunity. The poor kid, for no fault of his own, has to engage in much more risk or much more effort just to access the same opportunity (a given college) as the rich kid. To actually make those opportunities equal would require such a vast redistribution of wealth, or restructuring of public education, that both Republicans and Democrats would gawk. Actual equal opportunity, without even mentioning outcomes, is an extremely radical proposition that would be fundamentally different from the current setup. Right now in America, equal opportunity means "Everyone has at least a snowball's chance in Hell." and nothing more. [Edited on August 13, 2012 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]
8/13/2012 3:25:40 PM
^^Are you a public school teacher?[Edited on August 13, 2012 at 3:33 PM. Reason : ^^]
8/13/2012 3:27:21 PM
Does that matter? Are we only allowed to discuss matters relevant to our employment? That'd be great for keeping GeniusXBoy strictly in pizza-related threads but wont do much for discussion otherwise...For the record, I'm not, but my brother is.edit: ohh[Edited on August 13, 2012 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]
8/13/2012 3:28:54 PM
Not you Yowilly
8/13/2012 3:33:22 PM
No, I am not a public school teacher.
8/13/2012 3:37:47 PM
8/13/2012 3:44:35 PM
How would that work?
8/13/2012 3:45:10 PM
Are you asking how vouchers for education work? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#Europe
8/13/2012 3:55:10 PM
Aiming for equality of opportunity is just as bad as aiming for equality of outcome, honestly. A kid with well-adjusted and responsible parents will generally have an advantage over a kid with with shitty parents. When you say that all people should have equal opportunities, there is an implication that some individual or group of individuals should enforce "equality". Someone has to take from the people that have "too much" and give to the people that don't have "enough". Unfortunately, no amount of giving and taking seems to solve problems that are, fundamentally, issues of morality and upbringing.In a civilization where the state is assumed to be good and necessary, equal opportunity is a topic that has to be discussed. According to The Social Contract, which all of us (dead, living, and unborn) are apparently bound by, those acting on behalf of the government are allowed to commit murder, theft, and fraud. These violations will affect some groups more than others, just as taking a shotgun blast from 50 yards may impair the victim's left arm more than their right. While equal opportunity proponents would say we need a better shotgun that injures all organs equally, I would argue that we need to using shotguns against people.[Edited on August 13, 2012 at 4:07 PM. Reason : ]
8/13/2012 4:05:10 PM
8/13/2012 4:09:02 PM
Didn't realize that the Swedes used a voucher system. Learn something new everyday. Funny how neither side points that out.
8/13/2012 4:10:48 PM
The libertarians sure do. They scream day and night "Why can't we enjoy at least the same freedoms as Europeans?!?"
8/13/2012 4:29:56 PM
I don't necessarily have a problem with a voucher system -- So long as private schools have to meet the same testing standards as public schools. I think a good example of a voucher going terribly wrong is Louisiana.It's just unacceptable to me for my tax dollars to pay for some kid to learn that dinosaurs and humans were on the earth at the same time and mathematics are a divine gift from God or some other bullshit textbook written by Bob Jones "University"
8/13/2012 5:57:56 PM
I thought this was going to be about another shitty Nicolas Cage movie.
8/13/2012 6:06:05 PM
^^ As the argument goes, the money follows the kids. It isn't your money anymore. To put it another way, better for 10% of students to receive educations you disagree with ideologically than for 100% to receive educations you disagree with ideologically. After-all, this is Louisiana, odds are not bad that the testing standards the government requires will be that dinosaurs and humans were on the earth at the same time.This is why the government education system is so horrible. Democracy is not a search for truth. [Edited on August 13, 2012 at 6:17 PM. Reason : .,.]
8/13/2012 6:16:25 PM
Democracy isn't a search for truth, but EDUCATION should be.Why shouldn't private schools being funded by public funds be held to the same testing standards as public schools?Goddammit, if my tax dollars are paying for someone's education they should be able to leave high school able to do simple algebra -- at private christian schools we have no idea.Not to mention the shear oversight of public schools tends to push them toward a somewhat ideological center with checks on the crazies, see court cases like, in louisiana:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_v._Aguillard
8/13/2012 6:37:21 PM
caveat: i have not read anything in this thread.that said, you don't rate a 2nd Bill Of Rights until you start giving a fuck about the first Bill Of Rights.
8/13/2012 7:07:56 PM
^^ I missed it. What was your response to the fact that some jurisdictions currently require the teaching of creationism? Seriously, I don't understand why people keep assuming that once the government is in charge of something the government will automatically agree with their position. [Edited on August 13, 2012 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .,.]
8/13/2012 8:00:46 PM
^see the court case I posted. At the very least it requires an even handed approach to biology and creationism. All public schools atleast have to teach both sides of the issue. And these backward states are slowly becoming a thing of the past. They have to craft some pretty extensive legislation to get around that court case.And I dont understand why you think private schools funded by public funds shouldn't be held to the same standards as public schools? Why should we funnel public funds to unaccountable private businesses?
8/13/2012 8:37:57 PM
8/13/2012 8:44:31 PM
No, they aren't accountable to tax payers. The bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars to fund the local Jesus camp in boomfuck.
8/13/2012 8:47:37 PM
Well, me either, but I also don't want them funding schools that are the laughing stock of the developed world.
8/13/2012 8:49:42 PM
8/13/2012 8:53:14 PM
NevermindI don't even care. I hate TSB and you self-righteous fucks who think you have any idea what you're talking about. I can't believe I even looked in here.[Edited on August 13, 2012 at 9:39 PM. Reason : ]
8/13/2012 9:34:02 PM
d357r0y3r and mrfrog should just admit they want America returned to this:(unless what they meant is that actually attaining full equality of those types, with the necessary coercion entailed in the final equalization, is a bad idea, rather than just trying to get closer to it because we're still too far)
8/13/2012 10:08:49 PM
8/13/2012 10:23:44 PM
8/14/2012 2:32:21 AM
8/14/2012 3:23:45 AM
8/14/2012 4:15:28 AM
I'm glad destroyer (and Lonesnark probably) at least admit they are not pro-equal-opportunity, and understand that it would actually mean a large degree of ongoing redistribution.Some conservatives love to say they're pro-equal-opportunity, but usually just so they can follow it up with "but not equal results!" Actually ask them to define opportunity, and they usually end up just defining it as being synonymous with rights. As we all know, conservatives only support negative liberties, and actual equal opportunity necessarily involves bestowing positive liberties.All that's left is to somehow make sense of this opposition to equal opportunity in relation to their belief in meritocracy. [Edited on August 14, 2012 at 9:21 AM. Reason : .]
8/14/2012 9:18:12 AM
Hearing propertarians whining about social contracts they didn't sign is fucking hilarious.
8/14/2012 9:22:55 AM
8/14/2012 10:09:10 AM
What an interesting diversion. What, 5% of what the government does goes towards equality of either opportunity or outcome while the rest robs the nation to feed the ruling class. How about we stop arguing about transfers in the name of equality once we get the government to stop throwing so much effort into producing inequality.[Edited on August 14, 2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason : .,.]
8/14/2012 10:20:30 AM