rank in importance:

car size
weight
weight distribution
drive train
suspension
braking
steering
(traction/stability control)

I'd like to see the consensus on this

11/13/2011 4:14:54 PM

how fast can I lap in it
how well can I feel the feedback of what I'm doing to know when I'm at or slightly beyond the limits so I can correct.
braking
size
horsepower:weight

11/13/2011 6:43:39 PM

depends on what you mean by "handling".

For example, my Z06 is as wide as a lane of traffic and doesn't have great control feel (at a normal pace, it's almost nonexistent; at breakneck pace, it's merely "decent"). Still, even aside from the stupefying power delivery, it is really goddamn fast around a racetrack. On something like an autocross course, it's hampered by its width; it has to displace itself a lot further to clear tightly spaced cones than, say, a Miata, most evidently in something like a slalom. Regardless, though, even if the "feel" and all that stuff was always abysmal, all the time, AND it only had average power, it would STILL be pretty fast around a track, because of the sheer grip it generates: it's 2' tall and 7' wide, with enormous contact patches. It wouldn't be much fun, but it wouldn't be slow. It's like Chevy took something I doodled in the 6th-grade, then built it with kit-car levels of QC and fit/finish, haha. Rat Fink lives.

Something like my old Evo IX had staggeringly poor weight distribution, but it still handled AWESOMELY, I think (with the caveat that I never tracked it, but drove it a lot harder than I should have on the street--which is partly a testament to the confidence it instilled). Even the steering feel--despite what Ahmet says--is pretty good in my opinion, even though with all that weight on the nose and AWD, it should suck. All that c apability isn't even the result of crazy torque vectoring and other computer witchcraft like on the X; it's just a good driving car (though, like the 'Vette, a real piece of shit in some ways )

Lap times aren't a complete measure, either. I think most of us would agree that Miatas universally handle well (depending on how you define "handling"), but they don't cut quick laps. Even aside from their anemic power, they don't corner hard or anything...they have low limits all around, but are still very fun and satisfying to drive.


...then there's stuff like a C6 Z06 (*haven't driven this one; these are impressions from what i've read) that have great handling capabilities, partly because they have very aggressive suspension calibrations and rely on a very good stability control system to keep the car from being a scary, hot mess. In this regard, we see that electronic nannies, even when they aren't directly a part of the handling equation (like in the Evo X or Nissan GT-R), still have an effect, in that they allow the rest of the car to be fairly safely tuned to the bleeding edge.


Oh, and then there's stuff like a 135i...whereas my Z06 feels like a big, dumb, ponderous animal (albeit with a metric shitload of power for a stock car at an attainable price point) most of the time, but really wakes up and shines, with a "Finally, you stopped fucking off and decided to drive me" sort of attitude...the 135i is a fantastic machine, based on my one test drive of one, for hustling around backroads at a quick pace, with good control feel and responses--but by all accounts, it just falls to pieces and understeers mercilessly when really driven hard (although supposedly some suspension upgrades cure this pretty well).

I have never driven an ITR or a race-prepped Civic hatch, but one pretty constant thing is that FWD is constrained by physics and pretty much sucks cock. Some of the better ones are kinda like the 135i in that they're pretty good to a certain point, but after that they're a disaster. I would say that this is, in your list of factors, a pretty big one.

By and large, though, most of those things interplay, and you need most or all of them for the car to drive well. Beyond that, "handling" is a pretty broad term, and the answers to your question depend on how you define that.

11/13/2011 7:35:50 PM

It's all important. There may be several winning formulas, but ultimately it's all tied together.

A fat dude with good cardio isn't going to win a marathon. Neither is a lean dude with no muscles and a set of smokers lungs. The real question is why you want these things ranked in order of importance?

11/13/2011 8:19:30 PM

well general curious/buying a new car with sportiness in mind and knowing what to look for

what actually started it was a debate I was having about the mini cooper, it's front wheel drive which seems to kill handling for a lot of enthusiasts but on the other hand the car is so tiny you could argue it wouldn't matter that much

I also have a bmw 3 series right now and everyone loves the handling on those things (myself included) and I'm trying to figure out what makes it so effective; just from my limited experience the steering and braking are what seem really spot on but I'm not as understanding judging aspects like suspension and such

also theduke brought up a few interesting points; the structure/base of a car I def forgot to mention, I also wouldn't be the type to judge handling based on solo lap time but more in relation to other cars; that might be more beneficial to smaller cars

[Edited on November 13, 2011 at 9:26 PM. Reason : k]

11/13/2011 9:22:41 PM

Quote :

"on the other hand the car is so tiny you could argue it wouldn't matter that much "

nah, that doesn't have an impact. FWD is shitty for performance, period.

Quote :

"the structure/base of a car I def forgot to mention"

yes, the actual frame itself is important. in general, you want a structure that is stiff (in moment and in torsion). The heavier the car, the stiffer the structure needs to be. The more grip the car can generate, the stiffer the structure needs to be. Without this, it's tough to design everything else to perform well.

furthermore, you could have a bazillion page, Ph.D.-level discussion on suspension alone. broadly, there are numerous types of overall configurations, but they pretty much fall into the categories of 'independent" and "non-independent". They pretty much all have their compromises, their advantages and disadvantages. From there, you have have spring rates (linear and progressive) and types, damper rates (in compression and rebound), sway bar rates, etc, not to mention stuff like ride height, travel (generally, you pretty much either have enough of this or you don't), and even different geometries of the same type of suspension layout.

You also forgot aerodynamics. At speed, this plays a not-insignificant to very significant role. Oh, and tires...they make a huge difference.

Also, there is a difference between what makes for a good-handling car on patched-together, bumpy roads with street tires, and what you want for a smooth, grippy racetrack with slicks or R-comps. You need some compliance for the street, whereas you benefit from very stiff suspension on a surface like a good racetrack (still need some compliance, but not nearly as much).



I mean, in general...weight, in and of itself, is always bad. Unsprung and rotational weight is even worse. FWD, in and of itself, is always bad. Always. I don't care what baonest says, it isn't a matter of opinion--FWD sucks. Any car that handles well with it does so despite it. Fully-independent suspensions are usually better than non-independent suspensions at most things. 50/50 weight distribution is largely a good thing (makes it easier to design everything and easier to drive the car to its potential). High CGs are bad. Overly soft shock/spring/sway rates are bad. Squishy bushings are bad. Loose tolerances in steering components are bad.


Ultimately, though, "handling" is far too broad of a term. It depends on what your goals are, and even then, all of these things work in concert. Changing one has ripple effects through many/most of the others.

11/13/2011 11:03:27 PM

theDuke866 is giving a good survey of the issues at hand

as far as the "Phd level" of discussion, you can map feelings of handling to actual quantifiable metrics.



I have been reading a LOT about Corvettes lately (mostly C4 through C6) and I have gained a great level of respect for the suspension and chassis. It's nowhere near as "primitive and brutish" as people say. Its size could create that impression however. Maybe I should make a dedicated thread on this topic...

11/14/2011 12:47:22 AM

Oh yes, the "feel" can be quantified to an extent. A few magazines have actually tried to do some shootouts with instrumented tests towards this end.

Where it really gets Ph.D. level is where you try to figure out where to alter all those myriad factors to achieve those quantifiable responses.


and yeah, the 'Vette gets a bad rap, but if you really grab it by the hair and drive the piss out of it, it's a different machine than it is when bumbling around on a public road. I can't really describe it in words, but there is a point at which it's like a switch has been flipped, and the thing just wakes up and bares its fangs. It rotates nicely; the sensation is kind of like the nose of the thing tucks in towards the direction you want it to go, and then it just explodes out of the corner as you unwind and get to WOT. It doesn't seem so damned big when you're driving it like that, either.

You'll never really feel it on a public road, though. It feels like a big dumb animal with a bunch of power at anything below racetrack pace, and it's not just that it's America-sized (though that doesn't help). It has a lot of thrust and grip all the time, but it isn't an impressive car on the street (I mean, it's impressive in a "goddamnthat'salottatorque sort of way, but not in a "this is a truly impressive piece of machinery" sort of way). I think it's probably up for sale because I haven't tracked it or autocrossed it in a few months.

If I was good enough to really exploit the car, I would imagine that I'd like it even more...

(during the 1% of the time that it's on track or running cones)

[Edited on November 14, 2011 at 2:22 AM. Reason : ]

11/14/2011 2:20:33 AM

i've seen a few autocrosses in my time , and I say tire grip and weight are the two biggest factors.

so a 70s rabbit/civic/etc with 70s suspension/brake hardware can compete simply with a set of race tires.

[Edited on November 14, 2011 at 5:25 AM. Reason : ]

11/14/2011 5:24:45 AM

I just glanced at this thread and I'll read it thoroughly later when I have time, but I'm surprised and disappointed that nobody mentioned center of gravity yet. Seriously people??

11/14/2011 8:50:20 AM

Duke did.

At one point in time I really wanted a car that could do everything well. This is why I went awd because depending on torque split you can tune a car to te ragged edge and make it so when you turn in the car just rotates and you floor the go pedal to pull out of the turn.


I LOVE my car and i won't get rid of it but it's to the point where its boring to drive normal and I literally get ankle problem when stuck in a traffic jam.

The next car I get I want to be small, light, rwd, well balanced and "flickable"

I'd love for it to have a lower limit then this one but really that can be adjusted with tires.

11/14/2011 10:51:00 AM

11/14/2011 12:13:03 PM

^^hmm, well I glanced over the thread and also did a word search for "gravity" and "center" and neither came up

11/14/2011 1:36:47 PM

I like a car that isn't perfect but makes me smile. If I can get a passenger to laugh that is always an added bonus as well

11/14/2011 1:42:27 PM

That's cause he typed CG lol.


unless he's speaking about the cute girl factor.


[Edited on November 14, 2011 at 1:43 PM. Reason : .]

11/14/2011 1:42:55 PM

Ah I just read everything. And given that the OP didn't mention center of gravity (which is very important) perhaps it should have been spelled out so he knew

Weight distribution is important, but so is centralization of mass. You don't want anything heavy hanging off the front bumper (like the battery). Low polar moment of inertia FTW


[Edited on November 14, 2011 at 1:59 PM. Reason : unsprung weight is important]

11/14/2011 1:58:23 PM

Bushing design is far more important than most people realize...

11/14/2011 2:40:59 PM