It is about economic conditions.

Muslim Mob Kills UN Workers After Christian Pastor Burns Koran

Quote :

"KABUL — At least 12 people were killed in Afghanistan Friday, most of them foreigners, when a United Nations compound was stormed by Afghans enraged by a Florida pastor’s burning of a Koran, according to Afghan officials. Thousands of protesters mobilized after a midday sermon, then surged toward the offices of the United Nations in Mazar-e Sharif, northern Afghanistan’s largest city and normally a bastion of calm. Some in the crowd broke into the U.N. office and attacked the staff, killing security guards and members of the U.N. mission, officials said. ... The protests began after a sermon at Mazar-e Sharif’s blue mosque, one of the nation’s most famous. Its picturesque dome is a regular destination for travelers and tourists. The Afghans had written a 10-point declaration outlining their anger, including insistence that Afghanistan should sever all ties to the United States if Jones was not punished, according to protesters."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/12-killed-in-attack-on-un-compound-in-northern-afghanistan/2011/04/01/AFrb5iHC_print.html (not actual headline)

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 4:27:40 PM

They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

4/1/2011 4:40:02 PM

Can we leave this place to rot yet? We're not bringing them freedom; they don't want our brand of it. Western-style liberal democracies emerged from hundreds of years of enlightenment thinking which culminated in violent revolution. This idea that we're going to give these barbarians (and I think that's an accurate description for the culture that exists in places like Afghanistan) a carbon copy of our own government, and that it will actually take, is beyond stupid. Wake the fuck up already.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 5:08:42 PM

People who take an interest in the well-being of their fellow humans would object to such an insular worldview. There are a great number of Afghans, particularly woman and children, who do not deserve to live a life marked by servitude and barbarism.

And one must question the "enlightened" nature of a society that turns a blind eye to such things due to fears of marginal tax increases and destabilized oil futures markets.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 5:26 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 5:18:23 PM

Quote :

"People who take an interest in the well-being of their fellow humans would object to such an insular worldview."

No, they wouldn't. What we're doing is causing more violence and more hatred. What we're doing also isn't working, and it will never work. Democracy doesn't take hold when we occupy a country and tell people that this is what's best for them, it just makes them more upset. Democracy takes hold when a philosophical revolution takes place, and people on the aggregate decide that they've had enough. That's what happened here, that's what happened in Europe, and that's what has to happen anywhere that true democracy springs up.

Quote :

"There are a great number of Afghans, particularly woman and children, who do not deserve to live a life marked by servitude and barbarism."

Who cares if they're women or children? They're all people, you're just appealing to emotion. No person deserves to live a life of servitude, but it's very clear that the people of Afghanistan don't want a Western-style government and they don't want us in their country.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 6:01 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 5:38:38 PM

Hmm, that's the kind of shit that you'd expect out of Kandahar, not Mazar-e Sharif.

4/1/2011 5:40:32 PM

^ That was my first impression as well. It is a bit very disconcerting.

^^ That your average Afghans, terrorized as they've been by warlords and clerics for the better part of the last century, have not had the time and space to bone up on their Thomas Paine does not prove that they are some special sub-species to whom the notion of human rights is foreign, undesired, or undeserved. What is required in places like Afghanistan is not the re-invention of liberal scholarship. That work has been done already, and is universally embraced everywhere it is given a chance to take root (though it is never a smooth process; there are always setbacks). You do not, in other words, need to indoctrinate liberal values into 20 consecutive generations of Afghan women in order to convince them that being treated as chattel is not the most fulfilling way to live their life. What is needed in places like Afghanistan is security, a government that is accountable and provides basic services, and economic development. The only morally acceptable option we have is to do whatever we can to help them achieve that.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 6:36 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 6:36:21 PM

That's great, man. I've got an idea for you: do the only morally acceptable thing, sell your possessions , buy a ticket to Afghanistan, and help them achieve freedom and build a democracy. Good luck, and try not to get killed. Don't tell the rest of the country that they have to sacrifice for people on the other side of the world by borrowing wages from people that haven't been born yet, because doing that is morally unacceptable.

4/1/2011 6:50:10 PM

Actually, I will continue to ask the country to consider whether it's morally responsible to stand idly by as entire societies are made to suffer under Fascist regimes out of fear that they might have to pay a marginal amount more in taxes.

In the meantime, do keep me updated on your revolt against the federal government, which you have no doubt already begun.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 7:33 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2011 7:33:41 PM

These simple people are the American man's burden. They need us to look out for them, to educate them, to protect them.

4/1/2011 7:58:02 PM

Quote :

" it's morally responsible to stand idly by "

We don't stand idly by.

4/1/2011 8:04:40 PM

Quote :

"Can we leave this place to rot yet? We're not bringing them freedom; they don't want our brand of it. Western-style liberal democracies emerged from hundreds of years of enlightenment thinking which culminated in violent revolution. This idea that we're going to give these barbarians (and I think that's an accurate description for the culture that exists in places like Afghanistan) a carbon copy of our own government, and that it will actually take, is beyond stupid. Wake the fuck up already."

Are you talking about the Westboro Church or the church that burns Koran to get a rise out of people?

4/1/2011 9:17:46 PM

we should round both groups up and airdrop them over Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or some other average islamic country.

4/1/2011 9:22:56 PM

Let them eat cake.

4/1/2011 9:48:52 PM

Quote :

"These simple people are the American man's burden. "

It is the responsibility of free people to not look the other way as their fellow human beings are subjected to servility and barbarism. It has nothing to do with nationality. It's just basic human solidarity. And fuck you if you don't agree.

[Edited on April 1, 2011 at 11:01 PM. Reason : drunk post]

4/1/2011 10:46:57 PM

4/1/2011 11:31:06 PM

Now Kandahar.

Quote :

"New and deadly protests over the burning of a Koran flared up on Saturday in the city of Kandahar, a day after riots in northern Afghanistan left seven United Nations employees and four Afghans dead. Nine people were killed and at least 90 injured in Kandahar as mobs roamed the city smashing shop windows, burning cars and vandalizing a girls’ high school, according to local officials."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/deadly-afghan-protests-over-koran-burning-spread-to-kandahar/article1968334/

4/2/2011 10:58:32 AM

lazarus lives in a fantasy world.

4/2/2011 11:04:34 AM

Quote :

"It is the responsibility of free people to not look the other way as their fellow human beings are subjected to servility and barbarism. It has nothing to do with nationality. It's just basic human solidarity. And fuck you if you don't agree."

So why aren't you doing anything about it? You're sitting here in a relatively affluent country and you want to force other people to use their money and sacrifice their lives for a cause that you think is noble. If it's such a great cause, then you should be putting your life on the line. If not, then you're another chicken hawk on a civilizing mission. You're no better than the European imperialists that ravaged Africa. Man up and sacrifice, instead of telling everyone that they should be forced (read: pay up or go to jail/die) to "liberate" these people.

4/2/2011 11:46:15 AM

Religious war imminent?

4/2/2011 11:50:59 AM

Yes, lazarus, please drop yourself into the conflict and record it. I bet they'd love some sweet American ass like yours to show up!

4/2/2011 11:53:40 AM

It's naive to describe them as barbaric. We've brought a war to their country for 10 years now, and someone found a way to whip them into a frenzy based on something that most Americans didn't even know what happened.

You have to put this in the context of the fact that these people aren't going to have access to the Internet or international news sources. Whoever instigated this probably has this mob convinced that most Americans and our president supports Koran burning. Think of how easy it is to mislead lead Americans (birthers, evolution, climate science), then mix in war and religion and you have this event.

With that said, it probably is time to leave. We really can't bring them democracy.

But at the same time, we are trying to fight al-qaeda and other elements of terrorism in the region, and leaving isn't going to work towards this goal.

4/2/2011 12:16:30 PM

A Johnston Co. muslim doctor joins the fray:

Quote :

"If nothing is done, Ali said he fears Allah - the Muslim word for God - might take out his anger on the entire country. That could take the form of natural disasters, he added. If people of faith don't condemn the pastors, Ali said, "we should be ready to face Allah's anger and punishment." Two Christians attended Wednesday's interfaith meeting, though Ali said he invited a number of others, including a rabbi. One pastor didn't show because he feared backlash from his congregation, but he sent an anonymous statement. "Love is the core value of the Christian Gospel," he wrote. "The burning of the Quran or any other sacred text must be condemned because it is not an act of love.""

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/04/02/1098736/mosque-leader-voices-outrage-over.html?tab=gallery&gallery=/2011/04/01/1098574/contrasts-from-conflict-040111.html&gid_index=1

4/2/2011 12:44:05 PM

He's right to be afraid of his congregation. They'll burn your house down in Johnston County, like they did to that homo couple last month.

These simple Johnston County people are the Wake County man's burden. It's our responsibility to educate them, police them, and teach them right from wrong.

4/2/2011 12:51:54 PM

You're so clever.

4/2/2011 12:55:32 PM

Quote :

"You're no better than the European imperialists that ravaged Africa."

I believe the free world has a moral obligation to prevent the enslavement of entire populations by Fascist groups such as the Taliban. I also think it is in our moral (not to mention political and economic) interest to do what we can to promote democracy, human rights, and economic development in countries where those things lack in abundance.

You disagree, on the basis that such efforts cost money, and that you frankly can't be bothered to give a damn about people you think of as savages.

Perhaps recognizing the rather lousy moral implications of such an attitude, you seek to balance the playing field by attacking my motivations. How pathetic.

4/2/2011 1:41:46 PM

Quote :

"You disagree, on the basis that such efforts cost money, and that you frankly can't be bothered to give a damn about people you think of as savages."

Not just that it costs money, but that you want to force everyone to cover the cost, whether they agree with you or not.

Quote :

"Perhaps recognizing the rather lousy moral implications of such an attitude, you seek to balance the playing field by attacking my motivations. How pathetic."

I'm not really attacking your motivations, but more or less calling you a coward. How about, instead of having others do your bidding, you invest your own life and labor. If it's truly a cause worth fighting for, then you should be willing to fight for it yourself, whether or not you can force the rest of the country to fight alongside you. It's incredibly easy to say, "Hey, this is a worthy cause. You over there, pay for it. You over there, take this weapon and fight. I'll stay here and talk about what a great thing you all - I mean we - are doing."

4/2/2011 2:46:59 PM

None of that supports your original argument, which is really the only thing you've said interests me. If you don't like that our volunteer military is commanded and funded according to the decisions of democratically elected officials, start a new thread. Or move to Somalia, where you can be sure there is no strong central government to boss you or anyone else around with their tyrannical humanitarian naivety.

[Edited on April 2, 2011 at 3:10 PM. Reason : ]

4/2/2011 3:04:59 PM

Quote :

"Religion was not to blame here. Religion is never to blame for anything. It is always something else. If another motive cannot be found, either equivocate endlessly or pin it on something vague and superficially profound that makes it everyone's fault, like "human nature". Bottom line: exonerate religion at all costs."

4/2/2011 5:43:11 PM

Gotta fight intolerance with intolerance, I always say.

4/2/2011 6:05:49 PM

Religion is a force of nature. Broadly blaming a religion is like blaming weather for hurricanes. It’s technically accurate, but functionally useless.

4/2/2011 6:07:27 PM

Identifying the cause of a problem is hardly useless, be it religion or hurricanes. Hence, levees. (I don't disagree that religion is a force of human nature. That is true enough. But then, so is rape, though few seem to think it fashionable to assume a blasé attitude about that.)

[Edited on April 2, 2011 at 6:32 PM. Reason : ]

4/2/2011 6:28:33 PM

Quote :

"That your average Afghans, terrorized as they've been by warlords and clerics for the better part of the last century, have not had the time and space to bone up on their Thomas Paine does not prove that they are some special sub-species to whom the notion of human rights is foreign, undesired, or undeserved. "

I don't see anywhere that he even said such a thing.

Quote :

"And one must question the "enlightened" nature of a society that turns a blind eye to such things due to fears of marginal tax increases and destabilized oil futures markets."

One must also question the enlightenment of those who think they are the arbiters of the best way to live.

Quote :

"Actually, I will continue to ask the country to consider whether it's morally responsible to stand idly by as entire societies are made to suffer under Fascist regimes out of fear that they might have to pay a marginal amount more in taxes."

who the hell is saying anything about taxes?

Quote :

"It is the responsibility of free people to not look the other way as their fellow human beings are subjected to servility and barbarism."

No, it is the responsibility of free people to leave others the fuck alone and not impose our will on other sovereign nations.

Quote :

"But at the same time, we are trying to fight al-qaeda and other elements of terrorism in the region, and leaving isn't going to work towards this goal."

Actually, it will. At the point where they no longer have contact with us, they will no longer have a desire to hurt us. We will be gone. The whole "those evil Americans are occupying us!!!" rant will be a hard-sell when there's nary an American to be found

Quote :

"I believe the free world has a moral obligation to prevent the enslavement of entire populations by Fascist groups such as the Taliban."

Well, then hop on a fuckin plane and get to it! You really should read some Kipling. he spoke volumes about notion of bringing "culture to the savage masses"

4/2/2011 7:19:38 PM

Quote :

"I don't see anywhere that he even said such a thing."

He did.

Quote :

"One must also question the enlightenment of those who think they are the arbiters of the best way to live."

I don't pretend to be the arbiter of anything. I argue for what I believe to be the right course of action. It is up to our elected officials to decide what to do.

Quote :

"who the hell is saying anything about taxes?"

d357r0y3r

Quote :

"No, it is the responsibility of free people to leave others the fuck alone and not impose our will on other sovereign nations."

Criminals and Fascists have no legitimate claim to sovereignty. At least, not in a world where decent people don't turn a blind eye to barbarism. I am not seeking to impose "our will" on anyone, unless you're of the opinion that the desire to live peaceful, dignified lives is characteristic unique to "us."

Quote :

"Actually, it will. At the point where they no longer have contact with us, they will no longer have a desire to hurt us. We will be gone. The whole "those evil Americans are occupying us!!!" rant will be a hard-sell when there's nary an American to be found"

You really don't know anything about these groups, do you? Their primary motivator is conquest, and their interests are global in scope. Their short-term grievance against the West is that we've made their regional expansion difficult for them. Their long-term grievance is that we are not sufficiently Islamic. And they're not exactly cryptic on this point. If you bothered to read what they say, not just to us but to each other, rather than basing your opinions on the dime store psychoanalysis peddled by bloggers and Jon Stewart, you might not be so ignorant on this point.

Quote :

"You really should read some Kipling. he spoke volumes about notion of bringing "culture to the savage masses""

I'm wholly uninterested in your attempt to mischaracterize my motivations. This has nothing to do a hero complex. And it certainly has nothing to do with imperialism. You (and plenty of others) are using these terms in bad faith, mostly to make yourself sound intelligent. I don't view them as savage masses and I'm not interested in making them all enjoy American football. I believe they have a right to lives that aren't characterized by barbarism, servitude, and extreme poverty. These are universal rights, not the cheap export of cavalier Westerners. If you're not interested in the project, fine. But don't slander it in an attempt to ease your own conscience.

4/2/2011 8:14:43 PM

Quote :

"He did."

no, he really didn't call anyone sub-human.

Quote :

"I don't pretend to be the arbiter of anything. I argue for what I believe to be the right course of action."

And the right course of action is to force other nations to accept our ideas and belief systems, even when they don't want to? riiiiiight. btw, nice attempt at being obtuse.

Quote :

"d357r0y3r"

where has he mentioned taxes in this thread? Right, he hasn't.

Quote :

"Criminals and Fascists have no legitimate claim to sovereignty."

The UN begs to differ. Afghanistan is a sovereign nation, and whoever the fuck leads it doesn't matter.

Quote :

"At least, not in a world where decent people don't turn a blind eye to barbarism."

Similar arguments were made about those unwashed heathens who didn't know Christ.

Quote :

"You really don't know anything about these groups, do you? Their primary motivator is conquest, and their interests are global in scope."

HAHAHAHAHAHA. that is fucking rich. I'll bet you also believe that Islam is evil, too, don't you.

Quote :

"Their short-term grievance against the West is that we've made their regional expansion difficult for them."

No, their grievance is that we've been bombing their region for the past 20 fucking years, and before that, we carved up their entire region into nations they didn't even like to begin with. And before that we enslaved them via colonial power. I'd say it's far more likely they just want to be left alone.

Quote :

"I'm wholly uninterested in your attempt to mischaracterize my motivations. This has nothing to do a hero complex. And it certainly has nothing to do with imperialism. You (and plenty of others) are using these terms in bad faith, mostly to make yourself sound intelligent."

Kipling was about more than just imperialism. He wrote a good deal of things regarding people feeling superior to others based on their own beliefs and customs. Again, read his stuff and get back to me.

Quote :

"I believe they have a right to lives that aren't characterized by barbarism, servitude, and extreme poverty."

I do, too, and at the point where they want, they will rise up and achieve it. At this point, they don't want it enough. So they don't have it, and nothing we can do will change that. All we can do is change which dictator rules them. Fools like you don't understand that.

4/2/2011 10:02:52 PM

Quote :

"Religion is a force of nature. Broadly blaming a religion is like blaming weather for hurricanes. It’s technically accurate, but functionally useless."

Racism and xenophobia are forces of nature. Broadly blaming xenophobia is like blaming weather for hurricanes. It's technically accurate, but functionally useless.

I refuse to believe that mankind is incapable of rising above its tribalistic inclinations.

4/2/2011 10:19:40 PM

Quote :

"HAHAHAHAHAHA. that is fucking rich. I'll bet you also believe that Islam is evil, too, don't you."

I'm only going to address this one. The rest of that shit was uninformed - oblivious even to the content of this thread - drivel. This is drivel, too, but at least it's somewhat on topic.

Yes, a morally normal person cannot read the Koran and find it to be anything but evil. Or, if you fashion yourself to be above words like "good" and "evil," you could just call it primitive, barbaric, misogynistic, tribal, superstitious, stultifying, nonsensical, take your pick. Islam, as practiced by most modern Muslims, is all of these things but in a milder form. Perhaps it is inaccurate or unfair to call it "evil." But the form of Islam practiced by the international network of Islamist groups, such as al Qaeda and the Taliban, is all all of those things in the extreme. That you are unaware of this does not make it any less true. Perhaps if you read something besides Kipling you wouldn't be so confused.

4/2/2011 11:37:33 PM

Quote :

"The rest of that shit was uninformed"

so, you have no response, because you know I am right. Look, you think your views are morally superior to those of other nations. There's nothing with that... yeah...

4/3/2011 1:35:21 AM

Quote :

"Not just that it costs money, but that you want to force everyone to cover the cost, whether they agree with you or not."

Unless we live in complete anarchy, somebody is going to end up covering costs they don't agree with. Even the most bare-bones government is going to have some function or trait that somebody doesn't like.

Quote :

"How about, instead of having others do your bidding, you invest your own life and labor."

Anybody who pays taxes is investing their labor -- unless perhaps they don't do anything and just inherited their money, in which case they're investing someone else's labor, but you don't seem to have a problem with that.

The "life" part carries some weight, but only some. Demanding that a person put up or shut up in terms of military service effectively disenfranchises the disabled and the elderly from saying anything about military action.

4/3/2011 3:30:34 AM

^^

Since I have an abundance of free time this morning, I'll do what I can to address your other "points."

- He called them "barbarians" - which is close enough to calling them sub-human. I was not being literal.

- I've made clear what I think our foreign policy should look like. Mischaracterizing it and saying "riiiiiight" is not a rebuttal. Sorry.

- He has referenced taxes several times throughout this thread (e.g., "Don't tell the rest of the country that they have to sacrifice for people on the other side of the world by borrowing wages from people that haven't been born yet, because doing that is morally unacceptable," "Man up and sacrifice, instead of telling everyone that they should be forced (read: pay up or go to jail/die) to "liberate" these people.") That I anticipated this argument should be not be held against me, I don't think.

- This is a matter of principle upon which you and I disagree. I do not believe a regime's ability to lay claim to certain territory gives it the right to do so. Nor does the UN, it seems, not that I feel bound by their determinations.

- It's not a matter of guessing what their motivations are. They make it very plain that their goal is to reestablish the caliphate and implement an extremely harsh interpretation of Islamic law. And not just locally. They want us to leave them alone in the same way the Nazis would have rather we minded our own business, for the time being. I would also add that many Afghans, particularly in the north, would have much preferred we did bomb the Taliban 20 or so years ago. So if you think you're being neutral, think again.

- I really have nothing to add about Kipling.

- I agree that it must be up to Afghans to shape their own future. But they need the space to do it, which it seems only we are able and willing to try to provide. We don't say of the slaves (or perhaps you do): Oh, if they really wanted freedom, they would have just taken it. That they allowed themselves to be treated that way for so long must be proof that they secretly preferred it, or at least didn't mind it so much.

[Edited on April 3, 2011 at 7:34 AM. Reason : ]

4/3/2011 7:32:17 AM

Quick! To the Ivory Coast!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372713/Ivory-Coast-Machete-thugs-hack-death-1-000-Duekoue-battle-rages.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Oh wait, Obama is a joke, and didn't actually go in to Libya on some moral high ground to help the oppressed. Instead, we'll just do what we always do with oppression in sub-Saharan Africa...ignore it.

4/3/2011 12:21:10 PM

What would you have him do?

4/3/2011 3:29:09 PM

Quote :

"I really have nothing to add about Kipling."

of course not, because it would require you to change your way of thinking about forcing your beliefs on others

4/3/2011 5:11:21 PM

I love it when aaronburro says shit like this:

Quote :

"so, you have no response, because you know I am right."

And then, when someone provides a lengthy response, he chooses to ignore all but the least relevant part of it.

Quote :

"Oh wait, Obama is a joke, and didn't actually go in to Libya on some moral high ground to help the oppressed. Instead, we'll just do what we always do with oppression in sub-Saharan Africa...ignore it."

I'm not sure how an aerial campaign would help. Tanks, artillery, and aircraft are easy to target and destroy from the air. Assholes with machetes are not. Intervening in Cote d'Ivoire would therefore require a very different approach, involving the immediate deployment of troops. The comparison is ridiculous. You might as well say, "We intervened in Granada when it went communist, why didn't we invade China to stop Mao?"

4/3/2011 8:47:47 PM

Quote :

"And then, when someone provides a lengthy response"

his "lengthy response" was to one point. he ignored the rest. nice try, kind sir.

Quote :

"But they need the space to do it, which it seems only we are able and willing to try to provide."

That's just a convenient excuse to get around the fact that not enough people there want democracy or a real change from what they have.

Quote :

"I've made clear what I think our foreign policy should look like. Mischaracterizing it and saying "riiiiiight" is not a rebuttal. Sorry."

Yes. you think our foreign policy should be going into other nations and telling them what to do. That, truly, engenders love and peace and happiness everywhere we do it.

Quote :

"This is a matter of principle upon which you and I disagree. I do not believe a regime's ability to lay claim to certain territory gives it the right to do so."

Absent any other ruler of a territory, then who should we say is the rightful governor of such a place?

Quote :

"It's not a matter of guessing what their motivations are. They make it very plain that their goal is to reestablish the caliphate and implement an extremely harsh interpretation of Islamic law."

And this is hilarious, because you ignore, explicitly, their litany of other complaints against the US. OBL, on numerous occasions, has said that his chief complaint against the US has always been our meddling in the affairs of the Middle East, including our bombing of Iraq for 20 years (10 years at the time of 9-11). How can you only latch onto one motivation and ignore the countless other times that wholly different motivations have been explicitly stated?

[Edited on April 3, 2011 at 9:08 PM. Reason : ]

4/3/2011 9:04:23 PM

Quote :

"Oh wait, Obama is a joke, and didn't actually go in to Libya on some moral high ground to help the oppressed. Instead, we'll just do what we always do with oppression in sub-Saharan Africa...ignore it. "

Aren't the French pretty much on that one? (Legitimate question...just saw a couple of brief headlines earlier--haven't read anything extensively).

Quote :

"You really don't know anything about these groups, do you? Their primary motivator is conquest, and their interests are global in scope. Their short-term grievance against the West is that we've made their regional expansion difficult for them. Their long-term grievance is that we are not sufficiently Islamic. And they're not exactly cryptic on this point."

I don't do a whole lot of agreeing with lazarus on foreign policy matters, but this statement is accurate, aaronburro (not that I do a whole lot of agreeing with you, either).

4/3/2011 10:34:57 PM

Quote :

"Aren't the French pretty much on that one? "

They've sent troops to Abidjan who are currently patrolling the streets, from what I've read. Ouattara's forces seem to have swiftly seized control of most of the rest of the country.

Quote :

"That's just a convenient excuse to get around the fact that not enough people there want democracy or a real change from what they have."

It's fair to expect Afghans to take their destiny into their own hands. It's unreasonable to expect them to do this when they're wholly outgunned by a fanatical militia that receives funding, arms, and expertise from wealthy outside actors, most notably Pakistan. If you want to blame someone for infringing on Afghan sovereignty, that's where you ought to start looking.

Quote :

"you think our foreign policy should be going into other nations and telling them what to do. That, truly, engenders love and peace and happiness everywhere we do it."

I think we should prevent, when possible, countries from being enslaved by Fascists and despots. Clearly that does not endear us to Fascists and despots. It's true that people on my side of the argument have been naive about the ease with which these groups will fade into oblivion. What that calls for on our part, aside from a more clear-eyed view of things, is more resolve, not less.

Quote :

"Absent any other ruler of a territory, then who should we say is the rightful governor of such a place?"

One that rules with the consent of its people and is respectful of human rights. I know, I know. That exactly what the colonizers wanted.

Quote :

"OBL, on numerous occasions, has said that his chief complaint against the US has always been our meddling in the affairs of the Middle East, including our bombing of Iraq for 20 years (10 years at the time of 9-11)."

Bin Laden's beef with us regarding Iraq was that the Saudi royal family decided to choose us to liberate Kuwait from Saddam's forces, rather than allowing his ragtag group of fundamentalist mercenaries to annex it in the name of Allah. I sure as hell am not apologizing for that. And you do know that the no-fly zone we implemented over Iraq was done so to prevent yet another genocide of Kurds and Shiites, right? Again, another thing I'm not apologizing for. These are not legitimate grievances. That you paint him as some kind of humanitarian is remarkable.

[Edited on April 4, 2011 at 9:18 AM. Reason : ]

4/4/2011 9:12:52 AM

Quote :

"It's unreasonable to expect them to do this when they're wholly outgunned"

if you'll buy that, then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you...

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"I think we should prevent, when possible, countries from being enslaved by Fascists and despots."

Yes, you think we should meddle in the affairs of other nations and tell them what to do. I'm glad we agree on this.

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"One that rules with the consent of its people and is respectful of human rights."

So, I guess we need to invade China next, right?

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"These are not legitimate grievances. "

to you. I don't paint him as a humanitarian. But I'm not going to completely ignore his stated motivations and attribute other ones to him instead

4/4/2011 5:45:51 PM

Quote :

"who the hell is saying anything about taxes?"

And to lazarus's response. I didn't mention taxes specifically, but now's a good time to delve a little more into this. How popular would the wars have been if Bush came to us and said, "We're going to go defeat these bad guys. Of course, it's going to cost money, so we'll need to fund it. Everyone's tax rates are going up x% to cover the cost." I mean, holy shit...can you imagine if the government was that candid with us? Of course, that's just not how things are done. We just ran deficits - and now Republicans are standing around saying, "uhh, we gotta slash spending!" The budget problems are the direct, predictable result of borrowing money.

If the government is completely open and honest with its people, and its intentions were really known, war would be much less likely. There'd be less conflict of interest, and if the people responsible for funding the war were to actually feel an immediate financial burden associated with the (out of sight, out of mind) war, maybe we'd be a little less reckless. The fact is, wars destroy capital - money that could have been directly invested into infrastructure (fiber, anyone) was spent on destruction. The only way we can come out on the winning end of things is we somehow secure a supply line of natural resources in the process. Go figure.

Quote :

"You really don't know anything about these groups, do you? Their primary motivator is conquest, and their interests are global in scope. Their short-term grievance against the West is that we've made their regional expansion difficult for them. Their long-term grievance is that we are not sufficiently Islamic. And they're not exactly cryptic on this point. If you bothered to read what they say, not just to us but to each other, rather than basing your opinions on the dime store psychoanalysis peddled by bloggers and Jon Stewart, you might not be so ignorant on this point."

Ahahaha. Yes, middle eastern countries are going to take over the world. Just think about all the intervention we've done in the middle east. Do you think this bothers the Muslim world? That Americans always seem to be killing people in their part of the world? This is the part where you need to seriously snap out of your delusional state of mind: they hate us because we're there meddling, and that is the primary reason that they hate us.

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"He called them "barbarians" - which is close enough to calling them sub-human. I was not being literal. "

They're completely human, but they've got a fucked up culture that I don't respect at all. The hybrid monster known as theocracy, where religion and government combine forces, is probably about the purest evil imaginable. The average person's view on women and homosexuality is flat out wrong and not in line with our sensibilities. Guess what, though? We can't change that. We will never, ever succeed in invading a Muslim company and convincing them to divorce religion from government, because their religion tells them that it must be that way. I don't know what can change that culture. I know for sure that we don't have the resources to spread liberty to every corner of the globe. We should set a good example (encourage commerce, free trade, be defensive and not aggressive, respect individual rights), and we don't, so let's get to work here on returning to a real economy, and not on foreign bogeymen.

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"This is a matter of principle upon which you and I disagree. I do not believe a regime's ability to lay claim to certain territory gives it the right to do so. Nor does the UN, it seems, not that I feel bound by their determinations. "

So you should be an anarchist. When does it become okay for a regime to lay claim on a territory? When they have an army that can enforce the borders? When they have 51% of the people's support?

4/4/2011 8:12:18 PM

Quote :

"if you'll buy that, then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you..."

Well, without ISAF support and Western dollars, the anti-Taliban types would have no better chance against the ISI-funded & supported Taliban than the mujahideen would have had against the Soviets, had we not been funding, arming, and supporting them (through the ISI...oops.)

4/4/2011 11:25:29 PM