I know there have been somewhat similar threads, but up until recently it wasn't really relevant to me, and the ones that I have found really don't answer the question too well. However recently I have taken up distance running, and my runs have taken me out in the country on back roads for 10+ miles.

I want to first say, I have 3 pets, two being dogs. They love to bark at birds, people, and sometimes for no other reason but to hear themselves bark. One is about 15 pounds and the other is around 50 pounds. They are both awesome dogs, and it would kill me if anything happened to them. They are inside dogs and seeing as how the place we are renting does not have a fence, we keep them on a leash or dog run when we let them outside.

Anyway, on my runs I have encountered several houses with very large dogs that are not chained up (there may be an electronic fence but I am doubtful). Several have come to the edge of their property, but none have ventured out into the road where I am running. Still, it is very disconcerting to have a 100 pound dog growling and barking at you less than 10 feet away from where you are running, especially considering I am way out in the country, and there would be nobody to hear my screams if I were attacked. I carry a pocket knife in my pocket but that's it, mainly as a precautionary measure (maybe I should get a Tasman Salt from SaabTurbo).

Point being, when is it acceptable to use, for lack of a better term, deadly force on a dog? Obviously if he comes out into the road and bites me I think it's a no-brainer. I also feel like if he comes out and even nips me it's OK too. I think the gray area (at least for me) is if it comes out into the road and barks or appears really aggressive. I am not talking about a 10 pound Chihuahua here, I am talking about a huge dog that could seriously hurt or kill me. The dog owner/lover tells me to keep on running, but the realist tells me that turning my back on a dog that is behaving aggressively is a really bad move, especially considering I am fatigued, and if it were to attack me, I probably wouldn't have a chance.

Anyway, I would appreciate any comments (or links to a law or anything).

10/3/2010 7:47:58 PM

Dude, you obviously didn't learn anything from the very recent thread.

Several users relayed their stories in which they were chased by dogs but instead of running away, they turned around and chased the dogs while growling... seems to always work, not matter how big/heavy the dog is, because there is no dog out there taller than you. Animals seem to recognize height as dominance.

So yeah, don't run because it is futile and will just make the dog more determined to attack you (unless you can outrun dogs). Turn around and run towards the dog and make some scary roaring/growling sounds.

Problem solved.

(I know it is easy to say and difficult/scary/counterintuitive to do, but if it always seems to work for so many people... don't think, JUST DO IT!)

10/3/2010 7:54:54 PM

if that doesn't work, shoot it. Maybe the next owner will buy a leash or a fence for their precious killer they were too busy to train.


And maybe the next time they see a litter of puppies they will choose the quiet calm one instead of the one thats out playing in the yard.

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

10/3/2010 8:00:22 PM

you could carry some sort of dog pepper spray like this

http://www.tbotech.com/dogrepellent.htm

My Dad is a mail man and that is the sort of stuff that the post office gives them. Don't have any experience using it to know how effective it is.

10/3/2010 8:09:04 PM

Quote :

"there may be an electronic fence but I am doubtful"

Quote :

"Several have come to the edge of their property, but none have ventured out into the road where I am running."

Quote :

"Maybe the next owner will buy a leash or a fence for their precious killer they were too busy to train."

sounds like they are pretty well trained or already behind an invisible electric fence

10/3/2010 8:27:24 PM

jesus. well first, grow some balls.

second, charging, growling, & acting as big as you can will scare them of 99.999999999999% of the time. if you're really that terrified, get some pepper spray. or run with a man bigger than you are.

you could also change your route.

the part about there not being an invisible fence, yet the dog won't venture out of the yard after you, makes me thing there is an invisible fence...just sayin'

[Edited on October 3, 2010 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2010 8:46:58 PM

Because everyone who reads this thread will be attacked by that same dog

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

10/3/2010 8:47:11 PM

Glock 26

10/3/2010 8:55:11 PM

yep. ^

that or a good pocket knife

10/3/2010 9:12:59 PM

Quote :

"or run with a man bigger slower than you are."

10/3/2010 9:38:09 PM

You would look like a loon growling and barking at a dog, though...

10/3/2010 9:41:57 PM

I know that my brother, who is a cyclist, has been attacked numerous times while on his bike - and he bikes to and from work every day. He wrote about what he does for his bicycle club. He calls it the Bike ADG System (Anti-Dog Gun). He has never hurt an animal, but has been in some serious wrecks on his bikes due to being chased and bulldozed by dogs.

Here's a link if anyone wants to read what he's come up with.
http://www.tailwindtandemclub.com/Bike%20ADG%20System.pdf

10/3/2010 9:57:31 PM

Beat the living shit out of that fucker.

[Edited on October 3, 2010 at 10:22 PM. Reason : If you're not carrying a stick when you run, you obviously don't live in the ghetto. We all do.]

10/3/2010 10:21:31 PM

Thanks for the advice. I never knew that pepper spray for dogs existed. I think I am going to look into this because like I said, the last thing I want to do is hurt any dog.

And as for....

Quote :

"jesus. well first, grow some balls."

Quote :

"second, charging, growling, & acting as big as you can will scare them of 99.999999999999% of the time. if you're really that terrified, get some pepper spray. or run with a man bigger than you are."

I appreciate this random statistic that you throw out. This would indicate that 1 in every 100,000,000,000,000, (or 1 in one hundred trillion) dogs will back down when you run at them. I am fairly certain this number is not even close to accurate. And then what..??.. I am way out in the middle of the country and I have chased a big dog for 50 yds, now do I just turn around and run the other way, confident that he has given up?

Quote :

"you could also change your route."

Yes I could. As a matter of fact I do change my routes every single time, but not because I am afraid of dogs. It is because I enjoy running in different scenery. But there is no reason that I, or anyone else, should feel they cannot run or walk or bike or whatever past a certain house because they fear an animal.

Quote :

"the part about there not being an invisible fence, yet the dog won't venture out of the yard after you, makes me thing there is an invisible fence...just sayin'"

Like I said, it's possible. But I am speaking of multiple houses with absolutely huge yards (acres upon acres). I just find it hard to believe that the owners of these rickety old farmhouses can afford an invisible fence.

10/4/2010 12:35:37 AM

Quote :

"second, charging, growling, & acting as big as you can will scare them of 99.999999999999% of the time."

lol, but nah.

In my experience dogs are reacting to you as they perceive you as a threat. Charging, growling, or acting as big as you can be just makes dogs see you as a bigger threat. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I've tried snapping on large dogs on more than one occasion and they just became more infuriated. Neither decided to submit to me, lol.

Acting big might keep them from biting you, but it really sends their aggression through the roof in my experience. "might" is the key word in the previous sentence.

1,436 others like this.1,436 people like this. Be the first of your friends.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 12:53 AM. Reason : l]

10/4/2010 12:46:36 AM

Quote :

"you could carry some sort of dog pepper spray like this http://www.tbotech.com/dogrepellent.htm My Dad is a mail man and that is the sort of stuff that the post office gives them. Don't have any experience using it to know how effective it is."

+1

My father was a mailman, too. He said whatever brand that the postal service gave him was good and sent any aggresive dog running in the opposite direction or literally just freaking out in circles because it's eyes and nose were so enflamed from the spray. It came in a tiny little can with a red grip, shot about 20 feet in a stream.

10/4/2010 12:52:47 AM

Quote :

"FeebleMinded"

i guess his mind isnt the only thing thats feeble.

10/4/2010 1:55:54 AM

My dog would never be left unattended but I'll tell you this. My serbu shoots a lot farther than anything you'd carry on a run and if you shot my dog you'd better run fast as hell and not leave me a clean shot. And I better not know where you live.

Ps you can't shoot legally until it attacks and even then you'd better not be in city limits.

10/4/2010 2:02:14 AM

STFU. If your dog is off leash in the city and chasing pedestrians then you're the one breaking the law. You'll coddle your crying dog and hope the police don't come to fine you or animal control doesn't come to take the dog away.

1,436 others like this.1,436 people like this. Be the first of your friends.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 2:21 AM. Reason : l]

10/4/2010 2:20:34 AM

10/4/2010 4:05:52 AM

Quote :

"You would look like a loon growling and barking at a dog, though..."

I'll take looking like a goon over getting attacked from behind.

When I moved into my new hood the first time I took my dogs for a walk a neighbors dog scaled a 4ft fence and walked out into the middle of the road 20ft in front of us. I stopped and his head was down, tail up, hair on his back up and snarling. I took a couple steps back and he moved forward. I stopped he stopped. Couple steps back and he moved forward. I stopped. I stood there for a second thinking he'd get bored and he didn't. So I finally started moving toward him yelling at him and that got him to tuck his tail and run. I can only imagine turning my back would have been an invitation to charge.

10/4/2010 7:22:36 AM

I've been told that for animal defense, the pepper spray that sprays in the stream isnt the best, you want the one that fogs in a cloud.

10/4/2010 7:25:22 AM

Quote :

"STFU. If your dog is off leash in the city and chasing pedestrians then you're the one breaking the law. You'll coddle your crying dog and hope the police don't come to fine you or animal control doesn't come to take the dog away."

he said he was in the country a couple of times already. not the city.

Quote :

"I appreciate this random statistic that you throw out. This would indicate that 1 in every 100,000,000,000,000, (or 1 in one hundred trillion) dogs will back down when you run at them. I am fairly certain this number is not even close to accurate. And then what..??.. I am way out in the middle of the country and I have chased a big dog for 50 yds, now do I just turn around and run the other way, confident that he has given up?"

99% is 99%. it could be 99 out of a 100. as in percent. why are you jumping all over me when this was said before i said anything?

Quote :

"Several users relayed their stories in which they were chased by dogs but instead of running away, they turned around and chased the dogs while growling... seems to always work, not matter how big/heavy the dog is, because there is no dog out there taller than you. Animals seem to recognize height as dominance."

Quote :

"i guess his mind isnt the only thing thats feeble."

i'm pretty sure his mind is what's feeble here.

and i'd be realllyyyy careful about the bb gun thing. you're in the country so you're less likely to run into this problem, but since that looks very much like a real handgun, you could potentially be charged with going armed to the terror of the public if someone stupid sees it & freaks.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 8:31 AM. Reason : ]

10/4/2010 8:29:03 AM

Quote :

"second, charging, growling, & acting as big as you can will scare them of 99.999999999999% of the time. if you're really that terrified, get some pepper spray. or run with a man bigger than you are."

Quote :

"I appreciate this random statistic that you throw out. This would indicate that 1 in every 100,000,000,000,000, (or 1 in one hundred trillion) dogs will back down when you run at them."

Quote :

"99% is 99%. it could be 99 out of a 100. as in percent. why are you jumping all over me when this was said before i said anything?"

LOL mathematicians ITT.



dogs are property, so you may have to recompense the owner if you destroy it. but at least you'll avoid the animal cruelty charge this guy got...
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vermont-court-beloved-dog-property-family/story?id=9362668&page=1

10/4/2010 9:12:47 AM

Quote :

"jesus. well first, grow some balls."

Really. Stop being such a bitch. The dude with the 99% stat is right, dogs will back down if you treat them like you're in charge. I have never had any problems with dogs, regardless of how big or scary they are. If one comes close enough to you to make you worry, yell at it (like you mean it). They will go away.

PS - you people and your scary dog threads. I'm ashamed to live in the same neighborhood as you bitches.

10/4/2010 9:36:48 AM

Quote :

"And then what..??.. I am way out in the middle of the country and I have chased a big dog for 50 yds, now do I just turn around and run the other way, confident that he has given up?"

In my experience with this technique, the encounter was over in just a few seconds. You don't chase the dog--you run at it, yelling loudly, giving every impression that you are going to tear it limb from limb. The dog gets the fuck out of there, and you continue running. If it doesn't and gets close enough, the next thing I'd do would be to kick it in the face/chin/nose as hard as I could.

Quote :

"Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I've tried snapping on large dogs on more than one occasion and they just became more infuriated. Neither decided to submit to me, lol."

What do you mean "snapping on them"? When I've done it, I'm roaring at it like a fucking T-rex from Jurassic Park, wild-eyed and sprinting at it, and primed to kick it in the face like a 50-yard field goal attempt. You aren't tapping it on the fangs with your finger and saying "Boo!"

Quote :

"My dog would never be left unattended but I'll tell you this. My serbu shoots a lot farther than anything you'd carry on a run and if you shot my dog you'd better run fast as hell and not leave me a clean shot. And I better not know where you live. Ps you can't shoot legally until it attacks and even then you'd better not be in city limits."

If you'd shoot someone for shooting your dog, you are a fucking moron, and at a minimum would spend the rest of your life getting beaten and facefucked by a line of other inmates. Of course, you're all talk and full of shit, anyway.

Furthermore, it doesn't have to be sinking its teeth into you to be attacking, and I'm fairly sure that centerfire pistols can be discharged within city limits in self-defense against dogs just like they can against people. Not that I'd care about that detail, anyway, and if I did, I'd carry a .22LR pistol, which isn't subject to most of those laws and would instantly make a dog see things my way, and have a very decent chance of killing it.

Quote :

"ou could potentially be charged with going armed to the terror of the public if someone stupid sees it & freaks. "

There are Barney Fife cops everywhere, some of whom might hassle you, but to actually have any GATTTOTP charges stick against you, you have to do more than open carry.

10/4/2010 9:40:49 AM

i said if it was someone stupid, not everybody who would call it in...but if you draw a gun on the dog & the dog owner is stupid & belligerent, they might try that. just thought it might be good to know since the charge does exist.

10/4/2010 9:46:36 AM

ah, yeah. i thought you meant just for carrying it around.

Yeah, I mean, it's something to be aware of, and it's one of those kinda open-ended catch-all charges (like reckless driving, etc), but I still think that even if you pulled it on a dog, even if you shot it, if the dog was being reasonably threatening to you, I don't think you'd have much to worry about...and EVEN IF you somehow got convicted of it, I can't imagine the punishment would be significant.

10/4/2010 9:53:04 AM

The charge exists, but he's saying that it has nothing to do with open carry (or shooting in defense). You are perpetuating a myth. If they want to carry a gun, it doesn't matter how freaked out someone wants to get; it's still not illegal, nor does it constitute GATTTOTP.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 9:55 AM. Reason : clarity]

10/4/2010 9:53:35 AM

Quote :

"jesus. well first, grow some balls."

Win.

The great majority of dogs (it's really more like 99.3122%. I've done the math.) are not looking for a fight. They just want to do their job of protecting their home and people by keeping you away. It wants to keep you away, not get into a fight where it could possibly get itself injured or killed.

If one comes running at you barking then just keep on doing what you're doing. Hell, you already said none of them have left their yard. If that is the case then you have no problem other than being scared.
If one actually comes at you just throw your hands up and yell at it. You've got to remember that 99.3122% of dogs are actually scared of you, that's why they are barking. If you show it that you're not scared it'll turn around or at the very least stop coming at you. They're smart. They're not going to mess with something that's bigger and meaner than they are.

Back to the real question. Use deadly force when a reasonable person would consider it justifiable. My personal opinion is if I tried to scare it away and it doesn't back down, but instead tries to bite me then I'd pop a cap it its ass (I don't see this ever happening because I'm not afraid of dogs and running into that 0.6878% is very unlikely).

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 10:45 AM. Reason : ]

10/4/2010 10:43:17 AM

^^wtf. i never said it was illegal. i was informing people that that charge exists. y'all are hardheaded.

10/4/2010 11:04:50 AM

When I took my dog on walks, when dogs would be barking in their yard, I wouldn't do much. If they were charging through the yard then I would definitely stop and face them or at least clearly acknowledge them while continuing to move. If they stopped at the border then I would ignore them and continue on my way, while double checking. Dogs that came out of the yard I would sternly walk towards/face and yell at them, pointing at their yard (hand pointing over their head). I never had any trouble past that.

10/4/2010 11:18:26 AM

i'm sure my response will get lost in a sea of others but i will share my anecdotal $.02

i grew up in the sticks. we had several gangs of wild dogs that would chase you.
i liked riding my bike and running around the neighborhood so i was determined from a young age not to let it bother me.

several times the dogs would nip at me as i was hauling ASS to get away from them.
one day i realized that i could slow my run and they would too.
these dogs werent trying to attack me. they were trying to scare me.
from that point forward i would walk by them and yell. and they left me alone.

but now im not as scared of dogs as most people are because of this.
but its also got me in trouble a time or two (read: i got bit by a pit while riding a 4 wheeler, which was someones pet oddly enough, but one swift kick to the head and he left me alone after that for the most part.... and then we have the case of another pet that tore open my friends ankle...a dachshund ahaha)


you know what-now that i think about it- i do find it odd that the times i find dogs most aggressive-are pets, while wild dogs genuinely just want to scare the crap out of me.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 12:11 PM. Reason : sorry im all over the place ]

10/4/2010 12:09:20 PM

Quote :

"he said he was in the country a couple of times already. not the city."

Regardless of whether it's in the city or the country...If your dog is out on a public road harassing a person there is nothing wrong with using pepper spray to send the dog running. And if it comes down to a handgun then a person's well being is more important than the aggressive dog's any day.

[Edited on October 4, 2010 at 12:30 PM. Reason : l]

10/4/2010 12:28:51 PM

Good points. I like the article on the dog gun. I definitely would prefer a non-lethal approach to this issue. And as to the 99% thing.... the whole point of the thread was to discuss that outlying 1% (although I suspect it is more than 1%). And I promise that in the course of running 50 miles+ per week on random country roads, I will come upon well over 100 unleashed dogs, so the odds are in my favor that I will meet one of these 1% that you speak of that will not back down when I run at it.

10/4/2010 12:53:40 PM

Not trying to be funny, but will you post about it when you do come across that one that won't back down?

It'd be neat to know the circumstances, your actions, how the dog behaved, and all that other mess.

10/4/2010 2:22:01 PM

Interesting, I don't think I've ever been scared of a dog hurting me. Most of them will back down if you make it clear you aren't scared, but then again I am a 200 lbs. man. One good solid kick to the face or the body will take care of the ones that continue to approach me aggressively. I've never been in a situation that had me worried with a dog.

Don't get me wrong though, if I was ever attacked by say... an Irish wolfhound or a mastiff I'd probably shit my pants and try to protect my neck, but other than that I think I'd be fine.

10/4/2010 4:28:57 PM

this thread makes me laugh

"HUR HUR HUR"

10/4/2010 5:03:33 PM

I've found most dogs I would be scared of are gentle giants while the smaller ones are the guys that try to rip your nuts off

But if I ever saw a 100+ pound dog coming at me, I'd like to think I would roundhouse kick the shit out of it

10/4/2010 5:18:24 PM

just be aware. In many townships and citys, air guns are considered firearms, and discharged one is a crime.

10/4/2010 8:57:22 PM

I too like the pellet gun idea. If I were a dog owner, I would just be thankful you weren't carrying a real gun. I would much prefer you teach my dog a lesson than sue me for medical bills.

[Edited on October 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM. Reason : .,.]

10/5/2010 6:51:01 PM

At the park the other day I was sitting on a bench and this old guy came with his 123 lb German Shepherd which was all black in color (he told me the type but I forgot). Thing was fucking massive (I am just 20 lbs more). In fact, the dog came running towards the bench/me before the dude got to the bench. Dog came over to me and sniffed me and I pretended to not even know he was there (just looking into the distance enjoying the view). Sniffed for a few seconds and left me alone. I don't like dogs at all and hate the fact that they drool all over you. And that's exactly why I always pretend I can't see them when they come over to me so that I don't have to deal with saliva on my skin/clothes. Since I completely ignore them they don't lick me or drool on me.

Anyway, yeah, that dog was fucking massive and if it was chasing me I would surely shit my pants and I doubt I would be able to follow my own advice

10/5/2010 7:05:28 PM

I guess I'm the only one that has been the special 1%.

I was walking in a public park on a trail and the lady had her dog on a retactable leash. he came forwards, I turned around to get him to back down. He took out my knee. It was all the way to the bone. It took two people tugging him on the leash to hold him back from me ; I think he was going for the jugglar (he had knocked me down on the ground).

I love big dogs and always will, but this had been an abused dog, you never know what an animal will do, so protect yourself!

oh yeah he was a huge doberman/pit bull mix -whenever I see close cropped ears on a dog now it scares me some b/c of this.

10/12/2010 4:12:25 PM

Too bad he didn't get the juggalo...

10/12/2010 4:15:06 PM

Quote :

"At the park the other day I was sitting on a bench and this old guy came with his 123 lb German Shepherd which was all black in color (he told me the type but I forgot). Thing was fucking massive (I am just 20 lbs more)."

youre only 143 lbs???!!!!

10/12/2010 4:15:18 PM

I used to walk to school when I was in middle school. I'd have to walk past this trailer where the guy would let his 4 dogs wander around unchained. Every day they would growl and bark at me when I walked past. Then one day one of the dogs charged me. I beat the crap out of it with my backpack and then took off. Stupid asshole should have kept his dogs fenced in

Quote :

"http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vermont-court-beloved-dog-property-family/story?id=9362668&page=1"

This story makes me

10/14/2010 3:46:31 PM

my uncle happened to be attacked by a pit bull last week; he also happened to have a pellet gun nearby at the time. he ended up beating the dog with the gun until it broke and then with a stick until he was able to get inside. so, a pellet gun isn't really a good solution...

10/14/2010 3:55:00 PM

from ^^

Quote :

""We cannot sleep, we cannot eat, we cannot laugh … all we can do is cry," Sarah Scheele wrote online after Shadow's death."

god damn, its a fucking dog. they die in 10 years anyways, just get a new one

10/14/2010 4:42:17 PM

Hell they already have 4.

10/15/2010 12:47:12 PM