Damn corn juice is killing my old bike. Plastic and rubber parts are melting all over the place, even ones that I just replaced. It's hard enough to find parts for this thing without having to worry about ethanol resilience. The 3% loss of power/economy isn't thrilling me either.

Any stations in the Raleigh area advertising ethanol free? It used to be just a winter thing in Wake county: is it year 'round now?

5/28/2010 10:25:26 AM

You might want to check the stations around Falls lake. It's in their best interest to offer Ethanol Free with all the boaters out there.

5/28/2010 10:28:14 AM

damn, that sucks...i didn't realize that 10% would make that much of a difference on plastic/rubber parts, despite the age

5/28/2010 10:55:56 AM

premium often doesnt have ethanol

5/28/2010 11:09:20 AM

It was my understanding that they're starting to use ethanol to make premium, since it's cheaper to get the octane boost from the ethanol than traditional methods.

5/28/2010 11:33:26 AM

i have no idea, i just know i've seen a a few gas stations with stickers that say "premium contains no ethanol." i noticed them because i run premium in my car.

5/28/2010 11:49:43 AM

Valero

5/28/2010 11:54:25 AM

Exxon in Cary -Tryon and Cary Parkway claims to be ethanol free on all grades as does BP on Peace and St Mary's in Raleigh, but the BP in Cary has ethanol and the info comes from gas station clerks, so who knows...

I'd like to avoid ethanol as well for several reasons, ideological ones included...

5/28/2010 1:54:45 PM

kinda makes the good old fashioned gasoline combustion engine seem like a fairly efficient method of power doesn't it

5/28/2010 4:45:14 PM

is this something i need to worry about with pain/fairings on my bike?

5/28/2010 6:05:47 PM

I don't know. It melted a set of plastic fuel filters in 48 hours.

5/28/2010 6:10:15 PM

I, too, would like to avoid stations with ethanol in their fuel.

6/1/2010 10:18:52 AM

Anyone been following this? Ever since this thread I've been asking gas stations whether or not they have ethanol in their gas. About half the gas stations I've asked say they do have ethanol. Many of them follow that with "I think all gas has ethanol now." The other half say they don't have ethanol, but I've yet to see a clerk who really seemed convincing. I think a lot of them just made up and answer to get me to go away and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of them weren't lying just to get my business.

The marina I have been using for over a decade has ethanol. That was a big WTF moment for me. They're also one of the ones who told me all gas has it now. I promptly cranked the car and drove 8 miles to the next place where they claimed they don't have ethanol. I did notice that they were changing from Texaco to Shell at the first place. Maybe the Shell distributor doesn't have Ethanol in their mix?

What about premium gas? Does it ever have ethanol? If I have to pay the .20 more for premium I will. I doubt I'll use more than 100 gallons of gas in the boat for the rest of the summer, so it's only a $20 difference. I just need to know.

7/1/2010 4:41:23 PM

I was under the impression that just about every gas station has E10 regardless of the octane rating

7/1/2010 4:47:35 PM

I came across this, not sure if it's true.

Quote :

"Make a mark on a test tube about 2 inches from the bottom and fill it with the gasoline to be tested. Top the test tube with water, shake it and allow to stand. If the gasoline contains ethanol, the level of the water will rise, as ethanol is absorbed by water. This would prove the presence of ethanol in the gasoline."

7/1/2010 5:51:10 PM

Makes sense, but it seems like by the time you find out for sure it would be too late if the gas was already sitting in your bike/boat/tractor/etc.

Also, I thought the separation process required oxygen (hence it being such a problem on vented fuel systems). I may be wrong on that, but if it is the case you wouldn't have much oxygen in a test tube unless you left a lot of room at the top.

[Edited on July 1, 2010 at 6:54 PM. Reason : l]

7/1/2010 6:54:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE

Seems they sell these as kits. I might have some old lab equipment around here somewhere.

7/1/2010 7:31:49 PM

I thought Congress mandated Ethanol in every gallon sold in the country. Not E10 I suspect, but it is in there.

7/2/2010 1:12:05 AM

Nothing about that on wikipedia, and i fill up with ethanol free gas weekly

7/2/2010 8:18:09 AM

The 28-year-old plastic fuel filter built into the petcock of my bike hasn't had any problems with 10% ethanol fuel from a local BP. That said, I hope the Ethanol isn't affecting the bike in other ways.

7/2/2010 8:50:13 AM

the gas at the store my mom manages is ethanol free

E10 will fuck up the fuel lines on an old weedeater and old outboards

7/2/2010 11:28:00 AM

Shell has ethanol 10% including regular and premium, costco and BJ’s too. Do you know any location in Raleigh where I can get ethanol free premium and regular gas?

7/4/2010 1:38:30 AM

^I'd like to know where to go as well. 10% ethanol gas doesn't seem to affect the S2000 (just got amazing gas mileage over this past weekend actually) but its noticeable on the older Integra.

7/6/2010 11:30:16 AM

One of my neighbors' boats caught on fire over the weekend. He stopped for a while and noticed the smell of gas. Grabbed the fuel line where it went into the carb and it had turned gummy and was falling apart. He tried to stick it back on there and limp home, but when he cranked it the fuel exploded in the engine bay. They got lucky and put the fire out pretty quickly before any serious damage had occurred. He had been putting ethanol fuel in it and I suspect the fuel led to the fuel line degradation.

Had some people wash up on shore yesterday with a jet ski that was sucking water into the engine. I pulled the plugs, blew out the water, and sprayed in some WD-40. We could get it to run on the WD-40, but as soon as it was gone the engine would shut off. I pulled his fuel filter and it was full of water. Tried dumping it out a few times until it became obvious that they had a lot of water in the tank. They ended up getting a ride to their car and having to trailer it home. Classic example of phase separation from ethanol being left to sit in the tank. They hadn't run it in a while and the last gas came from some random gas station on the side of I-95.

This stuff sucks.

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM. Reason : l]

7/7/2010 10:35:34 AM

speaking in ignorance here, but is it a big deal to simply replace the susceptible parts with ethanol-safe ones? i would assume the big stuff (tank and carb) are ethanol-safe, but just the lines (and anything else that's rubber) that can't handle it

obviously, it would suck to have to do it, but on something like a motorcycle, i would think it'd be easy

maybe not, though

7/7/2010 11:17:46 AM

Many boats have fiberglass or aluminum tanks which will deteriorate if exposed to alcohol and send chunks of junk into the carbs. I believe some steel tanks can be affected as well depending on how they are coated.

Fuel lines after the mid-80's should be safe, but you also have gaskets and o-rings in your carb that may not. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a lot of other concerns.

7/7/2010 11:25:18 AM

i know it'll eat the little rubber tip off a needle valve

7/7/2010 2:56:37 PM

okay, nevermind

7/7/2010 4:49:49 PM

I almost went for the E85 at a station once because it was cheaper, before I learned that it's a bad idea unless it's a flex-fuel car

7/7/2010 6:59:24 PM

Many Marathon stations do not stock E10

7/8/2010 8:22:02 AM

New Shell Station, corner of Western and Method. V-Power Premium, contains 10% ethanol.



Will be trying other stations soon.

8/8/2010 8:54:25 PM

Hess and Handihugos on Western Blvd, both E10 in the premium.

8/8/2010 10:46:37 PM

^^Odd, was looking at a couple other misc. forum threads, one of which actually showed the sticker on the pump saying low grade had 10% E, mid-grade 5%, and V-Power ethanol-free.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NC
This should help as a starting point, but I wouldn't trust all of it until I did the mix test personally.

8/9/2010 1:57:25 AM

That station on Old Stage is not far from my house. I'll run over there next time I need gas for the mower and test a bit of it.

8/9/2010 11:42:20 AM

Yeah, I also read that Shell V-power didn't contain ethanol, but apparently that's not true in NC. NC changed the law, they don't have to put the E10 stickers on the pumps anymore, apparently the natives were restless and ignorance is bliss.

I'll be trying more stations, and maybe a few marinas if I get out that way.

I couldn't find any of my old lab equipment, must have thrown it away. I've just been using my little funnel with a tube. Fill up 25% with water. Fill up the rest of the way with gas. Hold your thumb over the tubing and shake upside down. Allow to settle a minute or so, if the water level rises it has the corn juice...or an additive that is water soluble.

In the past, gas stations would phase out the ethanol in the winter because it gunks up injectors in the cold. But we don't really have winter here any more and they may not give a shit.

There is currently a movement to raise the ethanol level to 15%, I imagine backed mainly by the corn lobby.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 12:10 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2010 12:06:48 PM

^thanks for doing this service for us!


This is total bullshit, I hate this shit!

8/9/2010 12:13:03 PM

EPA approves E15 in vehicles made in 2007 and up.


AWESOME!

Quote :

"EPA says E15 is ready for prime time... and your new-ish car A little number on your friendly local gas station pump might be about to change. Instead of 10 percent (E10), America's national gasoline supply can now contain a blend of fuel that contains up to 15 percent ethanol (E15) following an announcement by the Environmental Protection Agency today. The caveat, for now, is that this fuel is only to be used in cars built since 2007. So, that means that there could easily be five liquid fuels at a single gas station: ethanol-free gasoline, E10, E15, E85 and diesel – and this isn't counting different octane blends of "standard" gas. It also means that some gas station owners are saying they're not too interested in adding E15 pumps right now. USA Today says it is likely the EPA will approve E15 for older vehicles after more tests are conducted this month. The USDA – which cares because so much domestically grown corn is used to make the ethanol – and the ethanol industry support the EPA's decision. The CEO of ethanol company Poet, Jeff Broin, said in a statement that: The arguments being made right now against E15 are the same as those made about E10 back in the late 1980s, when I entered the ethanol industry. Seventy billion gallons later, we have proven those arguments false, just as research on E15 is proving critics wrong today. For the past 18 months or so, the E10/E15 story has been hard-fought on both sides, with supporters for the increased biofuel content saying that the fuel will be fine in most any vehicles on the road today and opponents saying there needs to be more testing because of warranty concerns. The Renewable Fuels Association took a particularly strong stand. Feel free to read more from some of the parties involved after the break."

I'd like to take this opportunity to tell the EPA to fuck off.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/13/epa-says-e15-is-ready-for-prime-time-and-your-new-ish-car/#continued

10/14/2010 11:16:52 AM

What we need is more e85 stations so us boosted folk can tune for it's retardedly high effective octane.

10/14/2010 11:23:58 AM

^ yeah, that's the only good thing about ethanol. It's a cost-effective way of having very high octane.

Quote :

" I almost went for the E85 at a station once because it was cheaper, before I learned that it's a bad idea unless it's a flex-fuel car"

It's cheaper largely because it's tax-subsidized, and even then, the price advantage largely goes away due to the fact that you'll burn a lot more of it than regular gasoline.

The only real use it has, in my opinion, is that it's cheaper than race gas if you need very high octane and have a fuel system that can handle it.

Burning it in a normal vehicle (even if it's flex-fuel and can handle it) is fairly pointless. The smarter way to utilize it would be if we designed flex-fuel vehicles with a separate, auxiliary tank for E85, and a turbo that pushed a lot of boost, but only if there was E85 in that aux tank. If you ran out of E85, you could still drive; you just would lose a good bit of power until you replenished your E85 supply to enable the turbo to deliver meaningful boost.

10/14/2010 1:48:29 PM

^ interesting

10/14/2010 2:49:28 PM

Some minor good news; Looks like a few groups have the balls to challenge the EPA over this.

Quote :

"Report: EPA sued by food and farm groups over E15 fuel approval Last month, the Environmental Protection Agency approved the use of E15, a 15-percent ethanol and 85-percent gasoline blend, in vehicles from model year 2007 and newer. Now, nine food and farm groups, along with the American Petroleum Institute, are suing the EPA over this decision. According to the two lawsuits filed, the use of E15 in cars, SUVs and light trucks violates the Clean Air Act. API's Bob Greco says testing on the safety of E15 being conducted by Department of Energy and automakers is not yet complete, therefore the ruling "puts consumers at risk." EPA Deputy Press Secretary Betsaida Alcantara tells Green Car Advisor: [The] decision was based on strict adherence to the Clean Air Act and was grounded firmly in science. The agency relied on rigorous testing that the Energy Department did on 19 car models, in consultation with automakers and fuel suppliers. This decision is sound, and the agency is confident that it will withstand legal challenge. Results of studies conducted by the DOE on whether the new blend will be approved for use in 2001 through 2006 model year vehicles are expected later this month. Also opposed to the change from E10 to E15 are major motorcycle, auto and gasoline-powered off-road vehicle manufacturers who are worried that the additional ethanol may cause damage to parts made from plastic, rubber and metal in fuel systems in older vehicles, as well as in engines not made for ethanol use. "

article was on Autoblog and Edmunds.

11/14/2010 11:21:46 PM

Still looking for an ethanol free station around here. Had to throw some gas away recently because it had gone bad in a month or two.

11/14/2010 11:34:10 PM

^ do you put stabil in there if you know it's going to be sitting? or does that stuff not work?

11/15/2010 7:40:00 AM

^^crap that makes me wonder...I've had a full tank of gas in the Integra for about 2 months. Hope it hasn't taken on any water

11/15/2010 8:47:22 AM

^^I don't think it makes it last that much longer

11/15/2010 11:37:22 AM

I just moved to Rochester, NY and all the gas stations here are E10 and gas is 3$ a gallon

11/15/2010 6:50:30 PM

Do NC stations how have this bullshit winter "oxygenated" fuel? On my last tank of gas i only averaged 21mpg, or about 2 mpg below normal given my usual driving habits.

Anyone else notice a mileage hit in the last week or so?

12/6/2010 10:24:33 AM

yeah...but that's because i've been riding around with yakima bars on my roof and no deflector

12/7/2010 8:04:36 AM

E10 fuel is by definition oxygenated. Ethanol is a replacement for MTBE (what they used to put in for oxygenation).

Your mileage is going down partially because it's taking the engine longer to warm up. The engine will run a richer mixture (open loop fueling, ignoring the oxygen sensor) until the coolant temperature reaches some preset temperature, usually ~50C. More fuel is also injected when you crank over the engine (similar to a choke).

12/7/2010 8:10:32 PM

Would the fuel injection have to run a richer mixture all the time in winter to compensate for the denser air?

[Edited on December 7, 2010 at 8:39 PM. Reason : rather, more gas for a correct mixture]

12/7/2010 8:38:50 PM