by Consumer Reports.

They claim it's easy to flip over, due to--get this--lift throttle oversteer.
At least that's what the TV report I saw claimed.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. There's no fucking way an LX460 is that prone to such behavior.

4/13/2010 10:43:22 PM

So does this mean we will see a LX 460 in Formula D this year?

4/13/2010 10:52:16 PM

it's like a conspiracy against Toyota these days.

4/13/2010 10:58:57 PM

Yeah, it's getting to the point where I'm starting to wonder.

4/13/2010 11:01:19 PM

What are you wondering exactly? That CR is in bed with .gov trying to take down Toyota (and Toyota only) so that GM can win?

Toyota's quality has been suffering, as they tried to expand as much/fast as they can. It doesn't seem hard to believe that when Toyota took a chassis that was meant for an actually capable off road machine (as sold elsewhere on the planet), fatten it up with luxo stuff, soften the suspension and load a stability management developed for a different version onto it, badge it a Lexus and start selling it, that it would have a higher propensity to get sideways?

4/14/2010 12:18:47 AM

So, the driver does stupid stuff and the big ass suv might tip over. Imagine that.....

4/14/2010 12:25:22 AM

Somebody didn't mail their check to Consumer Reports early enough this year.

4/14/2010 12:50:22 AM

Look at that GX go!

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/04/consumer-reports-2010-lexus-gx-dont-buy-safety-risk.html

4/14/2010 1:02:37 AM

Quote :

"Sorry, but I don't buy it. There's no fucking way an LX460 is that prone to such behavior."

Maybe because it is... the GX 460 they are talking about?

(SUV)

Also, latest headline:

Toyota suspends Lexus GX 460 sales after rollover risk report

4/14/2010 8:22:52 AM

That's pretty badass until you panic, lift off the throttle, the tires catch and you go a-rollin'.

4/14/2010 8:36:47 AM

I just wonder why US federal agencies have been overly harsh on Toyota...I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact they own a fair share of GM at the moment. I'm not a fan of Toyota, but its starting to get a little fishy.

As far as CR...anyone that's not retarded should know an SUV will flip over easily.

4/14/2010 9:18:30 AM

^^^ oops, that's what i meant, haha

yeah, i just find it hard to believe that this thing is really that tail-happy.

i mean, sure, anything can be provoked. i spun a fucking Camry one time by trail-braking. doesn't mean the Camry is some sort of widowmaker.

4/14/2010 11:57:10 AM

I have less and less faith in Consumer Reports as the years go by. I feel like a lot of their statistics apply to items or issues that I have little concern with. Case in point: this thread.

4/14/2010 12:11:07 PM

lift throttle oversteer is a problem

4/14/2010 5:49:21 PM

I said it from day 1. The big three took their bailout money and invested it in industrial sabotage.

1. Bring the competition down to your level

2. $profit.

4/14/2010 5:57:54 PM

^ hey thats the big 2 outa 3 mister. Ford aint take no bailout money.

4/14/2010 6:40:17 PM

My bad, they are also the only 1 out of the 3 putting out decent cars now. (about time)

4/14/2010 7:42:54 PM

i, too read autoblog.

4/14/2010 9:27:42 PM

Actually I read this on the USA Today iPad app a couple days ago.

4/14/2010 9:33:51 PM

Nice analysis here

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/14/why-the-lexus-gx-may-be-rollover-prone/

Why the Lexus GX may be rollover-prone (and the 4Runner isn't)

4/15/2010 7:46:45 AM

I love how as cars are made safer and safer people drive more and more like complete idiots and (on the whole) have less driving skill than years past.

It seems like with the introduction of every safety innovation people think that they can get away with more as a result. Seat belts, ABS, airbags, traction control, stability control...etc, etc.

To the point that when you slam on the brakes mid turn its the manufacturer's fault for the car oversteering? I guess they should work on changing the laws of physics.

4/15/2010 11:37:41 AM

yeah, I'll buy that if you are a completely hamfisted retard, you could probably find some way to get it sideways, but that doesn't mean there's a flaw with the design. I simply refuse to believe that it's "prone" in any meaningful way to swap ends.

In fact, I've never driven anything that would get sideways without significant provocation in a lift-throttle scenario. My guess is that most vehicles won't do it without trail braking. Maybe that's their point--that it isn't 100%, utterly dumbass-proof (which I still find difficult to believe...I suspect that it takes some INCREDIBLY, STAGGERINGLY stupid driver inputs to make it misbehave at all).

^ I hate how ridiculous, disproportionate amounts of weight and expense are forced upon new vehicles for the sake of chasing a diminishing return.



[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 11:58 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason : ]

4/15/2010 11:54:01 AM

Quote :

"To the point that when you slam on the brakes mid turn its the manufacturer's fault for the car oversteering?"

See the above article; this is throttle lift oversteer:

Quote :

"Fisher also confirmed that the brakes were not applied when the oversteer happened, which rules out the possibility of the electronic brake force distribution (dynamic brake proportioning) applying the rear brakes too aggressively, which could have caused the oversteer."

Quote :

"In fact, I've never driven anything that would get sideways without significant provocation in a lift-throttle scenario. My guess is that most vehicles won't do it without trail braking. Maybe that's their point--that it isn't 100%, utterly dumbass-proof (which I still find difficult to believe...I suspect that it takes some INCREDIBLY, STAGGERINGLY stupid driver inputs to make it misbehave at all)."

I think the point is that all the other vehicles they tested were dumbass proof and this one will get sideways without significant provocation in a lift-throttle scenario (hence, without the INCREDIBLY, STAGGERINGLY stupid driver inputs to make it misbehave).

While I don't think it excuses bad driving, I do understand why they would put the "Do Not Buy" stamp on it if all the other vehicles they tested faired fine and this one failed miserably.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 12:52 PM. Reason : s]

4/15/2010 12:49:47 PM

The simple solution to safer driving is have the dash edge razor sharp and remove seatbelt. Let me see somebody get into an accident.

4/15/2010 12:53:06 PM

I mean, it's not like any of us are going to drive these things anyway.

4/15/2010 1:50:25 PM

Quote :

"and this one will get sideways without significant provocation in a lift-throttle scenario "

that's what I'm saying, I don't buy it. Maybe if you're at the cornering limit, WAAAY into the throttle, and you then take your foot off of it completely. I don't buy that it would happen in any remotely normal scenario.

4/15/2010 1:58:44 PM

CR is claiming that they've tested two different GXs with the same results.

I am less cynical in this case, and think that it's not only possible but rather likely that this can happen when a manufacturer like Toyota takes a rather hardcore truck based off road capable vehicle, and softens it while making it 600+lbs heavier, with presumably a higher center of gravity as well, that it can have lift throttle oversteer tendencies. I generally wouldn't expect you to argue for the inherent superior dynamics of a truck/SUV...

4/15/2010 2:05:26 PM

Oh no, I have no doubt that it drives like shit.

I'm just saying that my S2000 will rotate on a throttle lift, but only if you're cornering pretty damned hard. My Evo would do it, but you had to be REALLY cornering hard.

Umm, that's about all I can think of for cars that I've experienced lift-throttle oversteer in. Yo know damned well that just doesn't happen that easily (except maybe in your 911 ). Could I have provoked some other cars into doing it? I'm sure I could, but it not at cornering levels that 99.999% of LX-460s will ever achieve.

^ I'm not suggesting that their test vehicle was an anomaly. I'm not even suggesting that it's completely impossible to induce lift-throttle oversteer. I'm saying that I think they're being a bunch of Chicken Littles, and I believe that for this to happen, you'd have to either be trying or be so fucking stupid that you have no business driving even a tricycle.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM. Reason : ]

4/15/2010 2:16:46 PM

^watch the video in one of the links. it actually shows the maneuver

i give it a 7/10 drift. 10/10 if he powered out of it instead

4/15/2010 2:27:20 PM

^^I've heard that the AP1 S2000 has more aggressive suspension settings than an AP2, however I disagree with you a bit. I'd have to say on cold tires its quite easy to experience lift throttle oversteer in the S2000. Even making 30 mph left hand turns through intersections with bumps (from tire grooves) is enough to make my S2000 oversteer a little bit, with no brake or throttle input.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 2:37 PM. Reason : k]

4/15/2010 2:34:21 PM

The GTI can do it in parking lots if they are smooth enough at about 20mph.

4/15/2010 2:40:53 PM

I made the mistake of lifting the throttle on my AP1 S2000 in a fast curve once; at night, on a 2 lane country road, going 80-85 in a 55 MPH zone that is now a 45MPH.

As long as I stayed on the throttle it had a ton of grip or it would oversteer in a relatively easy-to-control manner, but lifting the throttle is a mistake I'm glad to have only made once (on that car). I was lucky to pull out of it without going off the road. It was a learning experience that I should have saved for the track.

4/15/2010 3:05:31 PM

I honestly don't know what kind of asstard would lift in a turn during everyday, A-to-B driving. Reserve that shit for the track, and only if you know what you're doing. Common sense, dammit. I wish the unwashed masses had more of it.

Or the street when having fun. Andy, not calling you an asstard.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 4:10 PM. Reason : just everybody else ]

4/15/2010 4:09:14 PM

I'd say basically anybody who suddenly realizes they're going into a turn too fast, you know, kinda like the type that buys over priced, over weight mall cruisers... Hence the validity (I think) of this "warning".

Of note is that this SUV is actually capable off road, more so than most luxo SUVs for sale today, not that it's target audience is likely to even take it on an unpaved road.

4/15/2010 4:33:57 PM

People lift and steer when avoiding an accident. I don't know why you guys think that is some kind of impossible scenario. And, if the car is able to spin on dry pavement, it might be even worse on wet or snowy pavement.

4/15/2010 5:45:54 PM

Quote :

"Or the street when having fun. Andy, not calling you an asstard."

Nah man...It's cool. I'll admit it was a foolish mistake. It was definitely one of those moments I didn't want to repeat, but I'm a better driver for it. Should've been practicing in a better location though.

4/15/2010 7:51:41 PM

Better to learn on a car than a bike.

4/15/2010 9:00:34 PM

Quote :

"I honestly don't know what kind of asstard would lift in a turn during everyday, A-to-B driving"

most drivers panicking to avoid an accident on a curve

and CR was in a vehicle with probably good tires on a dry road, think of sally soccermom trying to avoid an accident in the rain on tires a little past their prime.

[Edited on April 15, 2010 at 9:13 PM. Reason : .]

4/15/2010 9:11:56 PM

This is why Sally Soccermom should be driving a fucking Volvo wagon.

4/15/2010 10:06:08 PM

Quote :

"This is why Sally Soccermom should be driving a fucking Volvo wagonat home."

fixed!

4/15/2010 10:44:24 PM

haha


I agree that it's plausible--even likely--that the target audience for this vehicle would do all the wrong things from behind the wheel. I'm just saying that I think they'd have to be far closer to the cornering limit than any of them would EVER be, and even then, I suspect it would take those incorrect driver inputs being applied aggressively.

4/16/2010 12:38:18 AM

hence the emergency maneuver test? as opposed to the every day turning on to kaplan test?

4/16/2010 10:52:10 PM

I'd still jump it over the fire.
Just an FYI.

4/16/2010 10:53:25 PM

Report: Toyota confirms Lexus GX handling issue, hoping to isolate issue soon

Quote :

"Toyota engineers in Japan have apparently replicated the lift-throttle oversteer problem recently found by Consumer Reports on the new 2010 Lexus GX460 and are working on a fix. Toyota spokesman Bill Kwong has confirmed the existence of the handling problem to The New York Times. [ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/business/17toyota.html?src=busln ] According to the NYT, as soon as CR discovered the problem, they contacted Toyota and worked with the automaker to make sure it understood the organization's test conditions. The engineers in Japan are currently trying to understand the root cause and come up with a robust solution. For now, Toyota has stopped selling the GX globally until a corrective action is identified, and owners in the field can get loaner vehicles from their dealers until their SUVs are repaired. The solution could end up being either hardware changes or software updates to the stability control, or a combination thereof. "

4/18/2010 1:23:38 PM

root cause: idiot drivers

4/18/2010 2:06:07 PM

my mother had a 98 ford explorer with less than 50,000 miles (she works from home) and just traded it in for one of these 2 weeks ago.

this news came out a few days after she took it home.

the next day she got a knock on her door and it was someone from lexus delivering her a "Loaner" car to drive until they fix the problem in the other. i think the loaner is one of the smaller suvs (rx?).

4/18/2010 3:28:26 PM

Buy your mom a flamesuit

4/18/2010 3:51:01 PM

IT IS OFFICIAL

Toyota recalls nearly 10,000 GXs to install new software/hardware fixes!

PWNTOYOTA

4/19/2010 7:04:46 PM

i bet you the arab drifters are ordering containerfulls of pre-recall units. I mean it's a perfectly logical upgrade from their Camrys

4/21/2010 11:22:20 AM

i was just thinking about how the ford/firestone fiasco of 2000 killed more people (over 100, while affecting fewer cars) than the toyota accelerator problem (fewer than 10, and the only "proven" ones are those relating to the floor mats issue) and yet a VP of toyota has been required to attend THREE congressional hearings, while ford was allowed to send a no-name rep to the SINGLE congressional hearing required at the time

i suspect it's a combination of "well, now that we own GM, it couldn't HURT to smear toyota a little" and "well, balls, i suppose we should do SOMETHING before the public gets all pissy that people are dying"

4/21/2010 11:34:08 AM