from 2007.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

Quote :

"Overview WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded. The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured. After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement". Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings. WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions. WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident. WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work."

Yeah.....this is pretty fucked up. No real way to justify this shit, but I'm sure someone will try!

Yeah ok, I just finished watching the video. This is beyond fucked, there are no words really. All I can say is that I hope it's fake or edited somehow, but I can't really see how.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason : :]

4/5/2010 12:30:04 PM

wow, I wasnt really ready for that either.


^You gotta think that it was just a terrible mistake. No soldier is just gonna gun down the press like that on purpose.

As far as the military trying to cover it up, well thats just par for the course isn't it?

Quote :

"Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.""

4/5/2010 12:54:14 PM

The original news report from 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Quote :

" The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed. “There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force,” said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad. "

Watching the video, it's pretty damn clear that there was no "hostile force" or anything resembling a "fight". This was a one sided slaughter of civilians and the military quite obviously tried to cover it up.

4/5/2010 12:56:50 PM

Quote :

"Watching the video, it's pretty damn clear that there was no "hostile force""

No, it isn't at all clear. Several of those guys looked armed. In retrospect maybe they weren't, but they looked it, particularly the guy with what I guess was the camera that looked an an RPG crouching by the side of the building.

Now, it's awful that these people got killed. It's sickening to watch the video now, knowing that they are innocent. And it's awful that the government wasn't forthcoming about the accident. But it was an accident. I see no evidence in the video that it was a shooting gallery for somebody's sadistic amusement.

4/5/2010 1:19:16 PM

^.

4/5/2010 1:27:30 PM

Yeah, the problem isn't that it happened, I mean it sucks, but you kind of have to expect that kind of stuff. It was no My Lia or anything, I think the troops had the best intentions. It's a dick move that the military covered it up, but the military admitting it would have only hurt these solider's reputations. I think the best way to stop this kind of thing is to realize that this kind of awful stuff will happen any time you get in a war, and we need to think long and hard if going to war is worth this kind of atrocity and murder.
Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to justify it, it was murder. But I think the fact we went to war is more to blame than any of the people directly involved.

4/5/2010 1:28:45 PM

Enemy Apache incoming!

4/5/2010 1:32:00 PM

The part of the video that was the most disturbing to me was when the US military killed the people that were trying to save the wounded. Especially when the gunner said "Come on, pick up a gun," just so he could finish him off. It just struck me as inherently evil.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 1:34 PM. Reason : -]

4/5/2010 1:33:55 PM

Quote :

"No, it isn't at all clear. Several of those guys looked armed. In retrospect maybe they weren't, but they looked it, particularly the guy with what I guess was the camera that looked an an RPG crouching by the side of the building."

I meant that more from the military's perspective in assessing the aftermath and releasing that statement, but come on dude, stop making excuses for them.

If this,



and this,



is all the evidence it takes to kill 11 people, then I have no idea wtf we are doing in that country. Also, what about firing on the van that arrived to assist the wounded? Even IF they were enemy combatants (which they were not), that would still be wrong.

^^^Pretty much, and it's important that people see stuff like this so we think long and hard before deploying our killing machine into another country.

4/5/2010 1:35:36 PM

Quote :

"I have no idea wtf we are doing in that country"

4/5/2010 1:41:51 PM

I love how the dudes are talking to each other like they're on XBox Live

"good shot bro "

4/5/2010 1:59:46 PM

You snarky bastard. How should soldiers killing people talk? What somber reverence would be acceptable murder chat?

4/5/2010 2:13:15 PM

Quote :

"deploying our killing machine into another country."

sure sums up your stance on this issue and the military in general

4/5/2010 2:22:22 PM

Quote :

"You snarky bastard. How should soldiers killing people talk? What somber reverence would be acceptable murder chat?"

I'm not sure there is any, but why celebrate it? Is that a defense mechanism?

"FUCKIN A BROSEF YEAH WE MADE SOME ORPHANS TODAY *HIGH FIVE*"

4/5/2010 2:29:01 PM

Quote :

"sure sums up your stance on this issue and the military in general"

My stance on this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that our military is trained, equipped, and deployed to be the single most efficient and ruthless killers on the planet. That's what they do, that's what they are good at, and I am thankful for their existence in that capacity.

What they aren't good at it is putting the lives of innocent civilians above their own, as you can plainly see from the video. My issue isn't with the military, it's with their use as an occupying force in a sovereign country, something they are clearly incapable of doing in a manner that is constructive to the overall resolution of this conflict.

4/5/2010 2:39:54 PM

^^I can't imagine shooting people from a god damned Apache helicopter to be less fun than doing it virtually in Call of Duty. I'm not quite surprised that men would react any differently at simulated blowing-people-up and real blowing-people-up.

Can't say the same for long term emotional effects though. I'm sure "good shot bro" has a whole heap of issues to deal with now.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 2:42 PM. Reason : ^^]

4/5/2010 2:41:43 PM

Quote :

"The part of the video that was the most disturbing to me was when the US military killed the people that were trying to save the wounded."

The military guys also thought they were trying to grab weapons.

Quote :

"Especially when the gunner said "Come on, pick up a gun," just so he could finish him off. It just struck me as inherently evil."

It should have struck you as practical. The helicopter has to keep circling, meaning it was going to lose sight of the guy. During that time he could arm himself and be ready to fire on you when you come back into view.

Quote :

"is all the evidence it takes to kill 11 people"

The second picture especially seems threatening. My first thought when I saw that (before it was later identified as a camera) was, "I don't know what the fuck shrike is complaining about, that guy has an RPG and is trying to find a place to shoot from."

And if "Those guys have military hardware and they aren't supposed to and they're moving as a group" isn't reason enough to perceive some level of threat I'm not sure what you require. Would they have had to shoot down the helicopter before it was acceptable?

Quote :

"I'm not sure there is any, but why celebrate it? Is that a defense mechanism?"

Military training has to make you a little bit eager/excited to shoot at the enemy or else you wouldn't do it. We've learned this through repeated experience.

And it also does have a role as a defense mechanism. If you get depressed every time you fire your weapon you'll go nutty before too long.

What's really pathetic is that your problem seems to be more with the lingo than with their actual attitude. It's not like pride in killing is new to war or to the U.S.

4/5/2010 2:51:11 PM

Quote :

"sure sums up your stance on this issue and the military in general"

I think describing our military as a "killing machine" is fairly accurate. They can do other stuff, but killing is really what they do best. Those metal sticks they have slung over their shoulders aren't for delivering babies, and the explosives loaded into all of the machines they drive aren't for mining resources, they're for killing people. There's nothing wrong with it, we've needed them several times to legitimately protect ourselves, killing can be necessary, it only gains the negative connotation you seem to have when it is used unnecessarily.

Quote :

"I can't imagine shooting people from a god damned Apache helicopter to be less fun than doing it virtually in Call of Duty."

I don't think I'd be able to do it. To know that you are ending everything that someone could ever be, that you are causing pain to innocent people, to his mother, his wife, his children, I couldn't do it. I'm glad we have people that do, I'm just glad that if it comes to it, I'll never have to be the person.

Quote :

"The second picture especially seems threatening. My first thought when I saw that (before it was later identified as a camera) was, "I don't know what the fuck shrike is complaining about, that guy has an RPG and is trying to find a place to shoot from." And if "Those guys have military hardware and they aren't supposed to and they're moving as a group" isn't reason enough to perceive some level of threat I'm not sure what you require. Would they have had to shoot down the helicopter before it was acceptable?"

I imagine the problem here is that the intel didn't let the troops know there were friendlies in the area, whether they failed to report it or military control did, I don't see the difference, it could have happened either way.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ]

4/5/2010 2:53:12 PM

Sad story, but I'm glad I wasn't on that Apache dishing out the bullets. No wonder these soldiers come back with screwed up minds. I couldn't imagine being in their shoes. Knowing I just killed innocent people. Sends the shivers up my spine.

Nothing the military can do about it now. Maybe apologize, pay people money, update their protocols? But, damage has already been done.

This story about the gunned down missionary plane is actually just as sad if not more... http://abcnews.go.com/International/video/cia-shoots-missionary-plane-9733289

4/5/2010 3:15:06 PM

war is hell, shit happens. it's it sad that it happened? yep. but for any of you to sit behind a keyboard and decide what looks like a legit threat profile and what doesn't is bullshit. it's also bullshit that they point to two blobs in a window as if that's a legitimate ID. these gunners aren't poring over shit for hours on a big ass TV. they have to make a call and engage.

sometimes you make the wrong call - you train non stop for years to make sure you do everything you can not to make a wrong call, but sometimes it happens.

just like when the CIA made a wrong call and lost the lives of 7 of their agents because they weren't cautious enough.

i'd love to see the jagoffs at wikileaks dedicate a video to the lives of the thousands of soldiers who have been killed. or the thousands of iraqi civilians killed by suicide bombers. but they won't because that doesn't get them on the front page of CNN while they milk the shit for weeks before releasing it

4/5/2010 3:16:22 PM

Grumpy you should watch the entire video before commenting. They openly said during the commentary that people were saving the wounded, they were not concerned with being shot at during the entire event, they simply wanted an excuse to engage. "Come on, pick up a gun" was not an issue of practicality, it was a simple excuse to kill. You have rose-colored glasses my friend, as you are wildly missing the point.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 3:22 PM. Reason : -]

4/5/2010 3:19:25 PM

^^The difference being that the US military hasn't tried to cover up videos of suicide bombers, in fact I'd guess that they readily released those videos. Thus no real need for it to be "leaked" to wikileaks

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 3:21 PM. Reason : arrows]

4/5/2010 3:21:16 PM

I did watch the entire video. They not only say that the people were saving the wounded, they say they were looking for/trying to pick up guns.

And if I've got rose colored glasses for our guys then you certainly have them for the Iraqis.

4/5/2010 3:22:02 PM

^^the difference is that videos of terrorists killing out troops don't give away our tactical procedures or reveal how we identify target profiles.

4/5/2010 3:23:57 PM

Is that why the video wasn't released?




or was it the bad press?

4/5/2010 3:25:37 PM

I am only concerned with the truth of the matter, regardless of who is involved. If anything, I wear no glasses. Anyone watching that video with an unbiased open-mind, will see the inherent evil, and a culture of shoot first, verify later.

4/5/2010 3:28:52 PM

Maybe it would have been handy to have <---photographer pop up on the gunner's HUD like it does in our video.

4/5/2010 3:36:31 PM

^^you mean anyone who has never gone through training for such a situation can make a totally uneducated evaluation of an event after the fact and enact the good ole "hindsight is 20/20" idiom and thus judge the shit out of someone in a war zone that has most likely know someone close to them who has been killed, wounded, or at a minimum shot at and engaged what appeared to be a group of armed individuals in an attack profile with only seconds to react in an act of self preservation

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

4/5/2010 3:39:25 PM

Quote :

"TerdFerguson: No soldier is just gonna gun down the press like that on purpose."

Regardless of what happened in that incident, WHY NOT?

There never have been soldiers in the Iraq War (or any other war) who have deliberately killed/raped/abused civilians?


[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 4:09 PM. Reason : There have been MANY]

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 4:19 PM. Reason : ]

4/5/2010 4:05:14 PM

Goalielax, you are completely delusional if you think they were acting out of self-preservation. They were "creating the scene" in order to be granted permission from a commanding officer, that was not present, so that they could engage non-hostile targets.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 4:20 PM. Reason : -]

4/5/2010 4:16:46 PM

It's hard to make the case that the United States are "the good guys" anymore.

4/5/2010 4:25:08 PM

Quote :

"They not only say that the people were saving the wounded, they say they were looking for/trying to pick up guns."

At the time they say it, it looks like only the driver has exited the van and he's standing right next to the van, not doing a damn thing.

Quote :

"Crazyhorse. We have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly uh picking up bodies and weapons"

Then when prompted more for what's going on, it's just:

Picking up the wounded?
Yeah, we're trying to get permission to engage.
Come on, let us shoot.

They don't do a single thing other than get to the body, pick it up and try to put it in the van while the gunner is sitting there with an itchy trigger finger.

4/5/2010 4:25:30 PM

^^^^You're right. I probably blanketed too many people with that statement. I just think that the soldiers capable of those kinds of crimes are not in the majority.

In this situation I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. It was a terrible accident, and we can add it to the long list of reasons we should've never gone to Iraq.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 4:42 PM. Reason : arrows again]

4/5/2010 4:42:02 PM

they should've been running with Cold Blooded Pro

4/5/2010 4:49:33 PM

They sound like fucking kids playing call of duty.

Fuck the leaders that sent them there.

Fuck the faggots that covered this shit up.

DEATH TO AMERICA. May the suffering we've caused be visited upon us all tenfold.

4/5/2010 4:57:38 PM

yeah, um, i'm gonna go ahead and disagree with the last line of your post

4/5/2010 5:00:28 PM

Can you agree with this? The owners of wikileaks are dead men walking. They'll have "accidents" before the end of the year.

4/5/2010 5:02:12 PM

I am surprised it hasn't been pulled from youtube

4/5/2010 5:08:21 PM

Quote :

"American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters."

They were called in to kill gunmen that had endangered other US troops. They found a group of people, thought that several were armed, and assumed that they'd found the gunmen.

Yes, it's tragic, but I have a hard time thinking of it as the evil act of sadism that some of you are making it out to be.

4/5/2010 5:11:18 PM

Quote :

"Picking up the wounded? Yeah, we're trying to get permission to engage. Come on, let us shoot. They don't do a single thing other than get to the body, pick it up and try to put it in the van while the gunner is sitting there with an itchy trigger finger."

Well, if they thought they were insurgents or enemy combatants or whatever you want to call them, then it would only make sense for them to want an excuse to kill them. Would you want to let someone go who you think is going to be killing your friends in the future unless you stop them now?

4/5/2010 5:12:06 PM

lol @ all the kids sitting in their padded office chairs posting to the webernetz about how easy it is to to fight war

Quote :

"Anyone watching that video with an unbiased open-mind, will see the inherent evil, and a culture of shoot first, verify later."

surprisingly, that is how a lot of battles end up getting fought in the middle of a war. believe it or not, most soldiers don't want to get killed!!! I know, hard to accept at first, but true nonetheless.


[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 5:30 PM. Reason : ]

4/5/2010 5:27:55 PM

Is it a war crime to execute people rendering medical aid?

4/5/2010 6:09:45 PM

http://www.killology.com/main.htm

4/5/2010 6:12:43 PM

Quote :

"Sad story, but I'm glad I wasn't on that Apache dishing out the bullets. No wonder these soldiers come back with screwed up minds. I couldn't imagine being in their shoes. Knowing I just killed innocent people. Sends the shivers up my spine."

I agree. None of us can imagine what it is like to be in a combat zone. I can see how they could have felt threatened, but in hindsight this is such a tragic story.

Is there evidence these werent insurgents? It seems they ask early on if they have troops (I assume iraqi) in the area.

4/5/2010 6:34:35 PM

Why don't they put hi-def cameras on helicopter so they can see what the fuck they're shooting?

Why are they still using 480i video to decide who to kill when I can see shit better in my living room?

That would have prevented all of this. It was all based on visual mistakes.

Hell, just give them better telephoto lenses. It's that simple.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 6:47 PM. Reason : .]

4/5/2010 6:44:45 PM

I think the answer to why is money. Also, it's not exactly a piece of shit camera, it can see pretty damn far and in various conditions.

I don't think it's ever as simple as it seems to an armchair elitist. Getting things like that done takes insane amounts of development and man hours and the costs become incredibly high in very short order. Think about all of the crap that would need to be done in order to retrofit all of the aircraft with a new camera system. Giving the pilots a telephoto lens doesn't necessarily do anything to help in low light conditions or when the aircraft is at an angle that obstructs the pilot's view of the target (The camera can obviously see more than the pilot can because there isn't an aircraft in the way of the camera's lens when it's looking down). Maybe you meant something different than what I'm thinking though.

4/5/2010 6:48:18 PM

For every one of these videos that makes it to the public's attention, there are hundreds more civilian "accidents" that never make it to light because the victims were not important.

The news articles from the time(based on military reports) contain blatant lies like "they came under RPG fire". This calls into question every report we've heard about the "war" so far. If you can call shooting fish in a barrel a war.

4/5/2010 6:53:03 PM

I have a feeling the quality of that video is not nearly what it was in the chopper.

But I really have no idea.

This sucks. It looks like they just came across a group of people with cameras, thought they were weapons and decided to open fire.

Doesn't seem like much to kill all those people.

4/5/2010 7:12:24 PM

This is what modern war looks like. It's an atrocity each day we let it continue. I have trouble comprehending how anyone can justify what the video shows.

4/5/2010 7:16:47 PM

^^^^Yeah, I'm not really asking why. I'm aware of the cost and difficulty of developing and implementing a new camera. But the camera simply wasn't good enough and they were forced to make assumptions. I'm sure there have been countless other instances where it wasn't good enough, and the soldiers may not have even realized it. It needs to be better to prevent things like this. It could even allow them to see real enemies better, which would interest the military much more. Killing people based on blobs on the screen isn't good enough.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/5/2010 7:18:31 PM