Was wondering how the garage crowd feels about the rise in embedded electronics in cars that not only support the dashboard but are increasingly controlling more of the automobiles functions.
from brakes to acceleration to steering.
It seems as if the technology is entering the automobile faster than they know how to place standards on it and now has resulted in Toyota's problems.

me i still prefer that when i press the gas pedal that a computer is not deciding whether or not if thats a good decision or not.
or whether or not to slam on the brakes on my behalf.

2/23/2010 8:31:49 PM

so you are not a believer in traction control or ABS

2/23/2010 9:05:52 PM

You're not pressing the gas pedal anyway...you're pressing the AIR pedal. The computer on every car manufactured since 1985 or so then decides how much fuel it should introduce.

2/23/2010 9:48:39 PM

every car has always done that.

its so you dont blow the motor up

air+gas=HP

2/23/2010 9:56:17 PM

i think cars have gone far beyond what you 3 are talking about
we're not simply talking about air/gas mixture control, its closer to i decide to go to the burger king the car takes me wendy's
but you get what im saying

cars that stop themselves, park themselves, etc
this all sounds nice but this means computers have access to acceleration & brakes beyond the simple stuff

what happens when there's a malfunction

2/23/2010 10:06:32 PM

Shut up with your nonsense Ragged!!!

Diesel engines do not have a butterfly valve in the intake for the gas pedal to modulate. The "diesel pedal" (if you will) directly controls the quantity of fuel injected...

So no. Not every car has always done that.

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/23/2010 10:06:57 PM

lol

2/23/2010 10:09:31 PM

do not want drive-by-wire

too many nannies

'09 Maxima (290hp and a damn snail above 90mph)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJoHkaMy4nA

A stock 240sx (155hp) will fly past 110mph faster than that

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 1:33 PM. Reason : DBW supposedly starts closing off the TB as you reach the hundreds or something]

2/24/2010 1:33:17 PM

eh drive by wire has been around and pretty common for a long ass time and works just fine in the vast majority of cases. i can't see it being less reliable than say a throttle cable sticking when engineered properly

obviously the shit going on with Toyota right now is an exception

2/24/2010 2:12:04 PM

I'm not a fan of Onstar, where someone can remotely shut your car off. Yeah no thanks Big Brother I'm good.


I'm a fan of ABS, traction control, and stability control. And the last two just b/c I can shut them off if I want to (on most vehicles).

Automatic parking, adaptive cruise control, automatic braking, and active lane departure prevention are all devices that just make drivers lazier and more careless.

2/24/2010 2:26:44 PM

i don't mind drive by wire. having 3 throttle maps is sort of cool.

2/24/2010 4:22:52 PM

abs is ok

i am also a fan of electronic engine management (ignition, fuel injection, NOT DBW)

but that is about it.

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 4:31 PM. Reason : dbw]

2/24/2010 4:31:13 PM

my 93 audi is drive by wire.

2/24/2010 4:47:13 PM

ABS and ABB (automatic brake biasing)- yes. For street cars, I would most definitely want it, if not for me, for the other guy so he doesn't lock his brakes up and slide into my rear end. ABS can be that one thing saves me from getting into an accident. ABS and ABB can result in faster lap times for you track people... I personally don't mind having a vehicle without it.

DBW - Eh. I'm impartial. I prefer the manual linkage myself. Feels more "raw." I'm all about it. However, I do like that I can put the Lexus in "snow mode" and it changes the throttle response significantly, thus preventing me from constantly spinning my tires with minimal throttle imput...

FI and DFI- I'm absolutely pro for these...

Traction Control / Stability Management - Yes... But it should be one that can be either enabled and disabled or unlocked in either comfort/sport/race modes, where each mode is less invasive. Again, traction control/stability management might be the difference that keeps someone else from colliding into me. I don't know. There's an argument on both sides of the coin here, however, for the majority of the folks out there, I say it does more harm than good. When you look at safety, it's all a numbers game.

The rest, I could care less for.

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ..]

2/24/2010 4:56:28 PM

I'm glad you guys came to your senses regarding the ABS and traction control.

2/25/2010 12:41:54 AM

Quote :

"me i still prefer that when i press the gas pedal that a computer is not deciding whether or not if thats a good decision or not. or whether or not to slam on the brakes on my behalf."

I agree, they fucked up when they started having computer driven throttle position...ever seen irobot?!

We're all fucked now!

2/25/2010 12:50:12 AM

i think one more important disadvantage is the newer cars are increasingly difficult to work on w/o spending tons on specialized tools... speakin of which isn't there a group funded by autozone.advance that lobbies for simpler repair jobs??

2/25/2010 4:08:17 AM

^^^^Man, your Lexus is sloooooooooooow you're not fooling anyone talking about "spinning" tires in the snow

2/25/2010 9:51:10 AM

Quote :

"i think one more important disadvantage is the newer cars are increasingly difficult to work on w/o spending tons on specialized tools... speakin of which isn't there a group funded by autozone.advance that lobbies for simpler repair jobs??"

really depends what's wrong. most problems can still be diagnosed with a $30 cheapo scantool. and a lot of times other diagnostic codes can be pulled by jumpering some connector

As far as drive-by-wire goes: I am a HUGE fan. I think it's far more reliable than cable drive and requires much less maintenance. It's much simpler--you don't have a throttle cable, cruise control actuator, cruise control computer, cruise control cable (sometimes), idle air control valve, mechanical fast idle valve (sometimes), throttle valve dashpot (sometimes), throttle plate stop screw, air bypass screw. all of those parts can fail or require adjustment, while drive by wire systems almost always have redundancy built in (two throttle position sensors for example). And on a lot of performance applications the drive-by-wire control can be adjusted in the computer (Subarus for example) with the proper software.

[Edited on February 25, 2010 at 10:18 AM. Reason : forgot how much complicated shit cable drive has]

2/25/2010 9:58:06 AM

Quote :

"I'm glad you guys came to your senses regarding the ABS and traction control."

my traction control is quattro/torsen.. no need for electronics.

2/25/2010 10:05:30 AM

I have no problem with increased electronics in cars. My ideal auto would have a HUD display with integrated GPS that also happened to track police cars and provided internet access. I also demand an Automated Barrista built into the HVAC that not only prepared me espresso shots into appropriate sizes, but also automatically steamed milk and poured that into the same cup at exactly the right amount of froth to make a perfect Cappuccino.

Also, its time we're do for the Robocop style auto security as well. I want to make sure that whenever a cheap piece of shit touches my car, they are instantly juiced with 1000AMPS of righteous fury. Status kill? I think so.

2/25/2010 6:48:55 PM

the only problem i have is with going to a central control screen with different menus. i want buttons. i want to feel like i am piloting the concorde on a record breaking trip across the atlantic, enjoying the amber glow coming from all my consoles and buttons.

2/25/2010 6:59:02 PM

This:

Quote :

"As far as drive-by-wire goes: I am a HUGE fan. I think it's far more reliable than cable drive and requires much less maintenance. It's much simpler--you don't have a throttle cable, cruise control actuator, cruise control computer, cruise control cable (sometimes), idle air control valve, mechanical fast idle valve (sometimes), throttle valve dashpot (sometimes), throttle plate stop screw, air bypass screw. all of those parts can fail or require adjustment, while drive by wire systems almost always have redundancy built in (two throttle position sensors for example). And on a lot of performance applications the drive-by-wire control can be adjusted in the computer (Subarus for example) with the proper software."

I agree with wholeheartedly. Drive by wire throttle is your friend, except in a Toyota where apparently they make you hold the start button down, and don't have proper (redundancy?) built in/they don't cut the throttle when brake is applied simultaneously.

2/25/2010 9:19:17 PM

Quote :

"As far as drive-by-wire goes: I am a HUGE fan. I think it's far more reliable than cable drive and requires much less maintenance. It's much simpler--you don't have a throttle cable, cruise control actuator, cruise control computer, cruise control cable (sometimes), idle air control valve, mechanical fast idle valve (sometimes), throttle valve dashpot (sometimes), throttle plate stop screw, air bypass screw. all of those parts can fail or require adjustment, while drive by wire systems almost always have redundancy built in (two throttle position sensors for example). And on a lot of performance applications the drive-by-wire control can be adjusted in the computer (Subarus for example) with the proper software. "

After reading that... It totally makes sense. Changed my perspective on the matter. GG.

2/25/2010 9:37:44 PM

Quote :

"After reading that... It totally makes sense. Changed my perspective on the matter. GG."

+1

2/26/2010 1:14:13 PM

i dont buy it, i think for convenience we allow for more vulnrability in most cases

but i'll ask, whats the differnce between the currrent or older system failing and drive by wire failing?

2/26/2010 6:46:22 PM

Older system problems are probably easier to catch through proper maintenance. And theres also the issue of who is liable in an accident. The more automated we make our cars, the less likely we can hold someone accountable for causing an accident.

[Edited on February 26, 2010 at 6:58 PM. Reason : .]

2/26/2010 6:57:32 PM

I can't help but LOL at the "I don't understand computers therefore they are bad" crowd.

2/27/2010 9:04:37 AM

^wrong fool, its not about what i know but its about what manufacturers and regulators know
and from experience i know that depending too on technology for convenience opens you up to vulnerabilities that can be catastrophic
also i question regulators ability to set standards and for mechanics to be able to test for problems

2/27/2010 9:55:40 AM

Quote :

"too many nannies"

Yep.



ABS=good

traction control=fine if I can disable it...especially if it isn't terribly intrusive (like it was on my 330ci ) when it's on

Stability control=good if I can disable it altogether, and especially if there at least a couple modes of operating with it on, one of which being very minimally intrusive for track use.

Drive-by-wire=fine. The different maps are gucci, but unnecessary in my view. Mostly I like it due to it simplifying things, like you guys said.




Parking itself? Unnecessary, and I think I'd have a hard time trusting it. I think doing it myself with the aid of proximity sensors in the bumper is about the ideal.

As far as anything that would allow for tracking me, monitoring my driving habits, or exerting any outside control over the car (shutting it off, speed limiting it, etc), I'm completely against that, and 100% intolerant of the latter two. I wouldn't buy a car with those features, and if the federal government mandated it, I would probably move to another country.

Quote :

"DBW supposedly starts closing off the TB as you reach the hundreds or something]"

Again, instant dealbreaker unless it could easily be disabled.

Adaptive cruise control, panic brake boost, etc are all just unnecessary...and by unnecessary, I mean they add weight, complexity, and cost without offering anything that I really give a shit about.



Also, I think that most/all of this stuff should be optional. I don't think the feds should require all U.S. cars to have stability control (aside from the constitutionality issues that we generally ignore...I just don't like it.)

2/27/2010 11:51:24 AM

I'm betting enthusiasts had a similar conversation back in the mid 80s when early electronic fuel injection became widespread but there wasn't a whole lot of parts available, or information available on how to modify it or just service it.

2/27/2010 1:52:18 PM