yeah the title is cut short on porpoise, also theres definitely gaps so please ask questions as you have them

also totally sorry for WORDS

anyway, Company starts enforcing policy that employees will not be paid for traveling after hours as a passenger according according to federal law

Employee A is model worker, if he may say so, almost perfect work reviews
Employee B is problem worker, repeat offender of policy and someone Employee A has complained about numerous times
both paid hourly, different rates for driving and working

Employee A and B are given orders to leave Thursday for Columbia, SC (3-3.5 hrs away, not including lunch/bathroom/gas stops). The exact words in the email are "Employee A, You’re leaving out Thurs." Not a specific time to be there or start, not even anything to indicate to get there through all possible obstacles. The normal workday is 8-5 just like most office jobs.

Employee A gets to office at 7:45am and starts routine packing of company vehicle. Employee B gets there around 9am as usual. Work involves packing equipment and towing a boat on a trailer. Boat is already on trailer and several employees including brand new supervisor and fleet manager help in making sure Boat/Trailer/Truck is ready to go including looking over Boat/Trailer by all.

We (ok that A, B shit is annoying even me) leave at 11am after all preparations are made. An hour into drive Boat falls off trailer off of I-40 and although no other cars are involved there is a small hole in Boat that now needs repair. Very small hole. I call the fleet manager and and say the equipment they gave me won't work to safely tow. Told to come back to office.

Arrive at office back at 1pm. New supervisor says we will have to wait till morning to leave again while Boat is fixed but to start driving again at 7am the next day. Fleet manager says lets see if we can't fix it now and see if they can't be on their way so we fill out an incident report and wait. Boat gets fixed and we leave again at 3pm with stronger equipment holding boat.

If you're still reading this is where it gets tricky...Now even under normal circumstances, we would stop driving/work at 5pm (because passenger won't get paid anymore and this is the same procedure we've followed for 8 months) so this 3.5 hr trip to Columbia would not be completed and we would still stop and get a hotel. But as it happened I got lost (yeah i know, 40 to 95, and done but I somehow got on 64 the long way). So little progress was made tripwise and we got a hotel an hour and some away (but still 3 hrs from Columbia). Now remember it wouldn't have been completed anyway under old supervisors and it COULD have been completed and then some if Boat hadn't fallen off trailer which Fleet manager himself helped prepare.

Meanwhile, Employee B gets the keys to the truck after we get to the hotel to get his stuff out and without asking or even notifying me, his direct supervisor, takes it on a joyride to meet a girl at Outback 1.5hr away all night. Not only is this against company policy but he's been written up for it several several times and I've made other complaints about his not following policy/my orders in the past and I told new supervisor just two days ago I wished to switch partners because of it.

So this morning we start at 8am and continue our trip as normal, stop 15 min for Breakfast, and get about 45 away when I'm told come back around immediately and new supervisor fires me. The reasons are 1) direct insubordination for not making it to Columbia by Thursday night and 2) the actions of Employee B because he and the truck are my responsibility even if I wasn't aware it happened

now me getting lost aside and the fact that a hotel would have been charged anyway in Columbia that night, i'm wondering if there aren't some flaws in my termination.

1) is it legal to force employees to travel as a passenger, even if it means not getting paid, after hours, in order to get to the job site where the initial directive was simply ""Employee A, You’re leaving out Thurs." even after the precedent for the last 8 months has been to stop at 5pm no matter what?
2) is it legal to fire someone for not doing so? I realize they gave another reason which really had nothing to do with me which is bullshit but NC supports bullshit firings in general being "at-will". I'm just wondering if the first reason is enough to hold merit for a finding in my favor.

Also its important that they explained I'm not getting fired because I got lost, it's because I got lost and then didn't continue all the way to Columbia still. And they explicitly stated that employees will just have to "switch off not getting paid to even it out".

ok thats enough for now, help/ask/flame on!

8/14/2009 10:25:17 PM

that's a lot of words. i'd probably have to read it again to make sense of it enough to give my opinion, which i'm probably not going to do right now. the one thing that did stick out at me though was the

Quote :

"the actions of Employee B because he and the truck are my responsibility even if I wasn't aware it happened"

part. If it truly was your responsibility, then it was your responsibility. If my employee steals $1000 and I wasn't aware of it, then yeah, i should still be held responsible.

as for the rest, hope somebody else manages to read it to give you some advice.

8/14/2009 10:33:38 PM

but if a coworker (not YOUR employee, just under your direction, i have no hire/fire ability) of yours steals repeatedly, gets caught repeatedly, gets reported repeatedly by you and others, and you do everything in your power to keep him from doing it and he goes behind your back and steals again...you wouldn't be just a little bit peeved you were the one being fired and he gets another write up only?

[Edited on August 14, 2009 at 10:40 PM. Reason : chain]

8/14/2009 10:38:43 PM

damn your company sucks.

Ya you got screwed on this for following policy.

Did he get fired as well?

8/14/2009 10:41:16 PM

seems like there's always more to the story than the supposed victim tells

-shrug- i have no opinion.

8/14/2009 10:42:43 PM

the department of labor is your friend in this situation, talk to an inspector. take notes and save any documentation you have, if they don't have documentation to the contrary there is a good chance you should be able to win unemployment.

wolfweb advice is all going to be worthless, the nc department of labor has people for situations like this that are happy to help.

8/14/2009 10:44:39 PM

well of course theres more but i can tell you that every single fellow coworker i told (20+) is absolutely shocked and appalled that a) i was fired b) he wasn't

i know its the nice thing to do to act surprised but they all offered to help me fight it, because clearly the after 5pm part now apparently applies to them too even though thats the first time ive ever been told that that is what the new supervisor expects

8/14/2009 10:46:11 PM

Dude.
I'm going to give one one piece of advice.
And none of that "opinion" bullshit that you're asking for in this thread...

CALL THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR OFFICE MONDAY MORNING.

The DOL will give you the straight answer as to whether you have a case for wrongful termination. From there you can make your decision as to whether you should apply for unemployment or even a wrongful termination suit.

[Edited on August 14, 2009 at 10:48 PM. Reason : l]

8/14/2009 10:47:46 PM

thanks guys, i had planned on calling DOL but i guess it was my way of venting/asking for opinions before i do so just so i can best prepare

SEMIUNRELATED

since im not working there anway OSHA and some other agencies are gonna get called as well because even though i wasnt fired for breaking/refusing to break those types of laws, we were routinely instructed to and i did and id like my former coworkers to not have to endure some of those things anymore

8/14/2009 10:52:06 PM

i don't think you have a case for wrongful termination

[Edited on August 14, 2009 at 11:04 PM. Reason : but it won't hurt to call anyway]

8/14/2009 11:03:51 PM

Personally if my screw-up would have been the getting lost part (boat-fail is the manager's resp.) I would have kept driving after 5pm in order to get to columbia that night and bed down. The fucktard in the passenger seat next to you isn't one to complain about not getting paid if everyone knows how much he's a problem worker. Would it look better to your bosses by saying you would rather stop after 5 so they can save paying you for an hour on the road and delaying their goal for a day or that you guys went the extra mile and took one for the team (no pay for either of you) in order to accomplish your objective?

Now I think getting fired for what happened is pretty extreme, but did the new boss who fired you know the correct circumstances and the past notifications you've given them on your co-worker?

And yeah I would agree contact the NCDOL on this.

8/14/2009 11:06:17 PM

id say the getting lost is your bust and I would have driven on, but the other guy's action is not your problem, he took the keys to get his stuff, and drove off. WTF are you supposed to do? could you reprimand the other guy?

8/14/2009 11:18:17 PM

well like i said, leaving at 3pm in every single other situation since theyve implemented the new policy 8 months ago would 100% of the time not have ended with us in Columbia anyway because its farther than we can get before 5

but the new supervisor wants to change that, unannounced to anyone until my firing

and as far as

Quote :

"Now I think getting fired for what happened is pretty extreme, but did the new boss who fired you know the correct circumstances and the past notifications you've given them on your co-worker?"

he said the past does not matter and that he's new and he's making changes around here based on what he sees, plus even after i said all that he still just wrote up the other employee

8/14/2009 11:20:38 PM

Quote :

"but the other guy's action is not your problem, he took the keys to get his stuff, and drove off. WTF are you supposed to do? could you reprimand the other guy?"

no i got checked in first and then got my stuff out while he got checked in and then handed him the keys so he could get his. now its entirely within policy for him to take the truck by himself, after hours, for dinner/errands/etc as long as its not so clearly a waste of gas as 1.5hr away was. then in the morning when i asked what he did he lied and said he only traveled 30 min. the new supervisor neither believes that i didn't know or give him permission to do it. and my only reprimand for him is to tell another supervisor if i had known about it.

8/14/2009 11:28:11 PM

i bet you worked for an engineering/consulting company, and this guy is beating chest and gonna make it all better even though the market is in the toilet. The DOL will give you a straight answer but it makes for a long weekend. There will be more firings after you, and morale will go down, and productivity will go down, and the shithead will still be there, messing shit up for the manager.

8/14/2009 11:45:04 PM

engineering. check.

8/14/2009 11:49:23 PM

jk. I do not condone arson.

8/14/2009 11:54:11 PM

yeah, sounds like the new manager is making an example out of you, doing a little chest thumping, and trying to scare everyone in to accepting more exploitive policy. even still, i doubt a wrongful termination will go very far, especially if you are in an at will state. a call to the DOL is your best bet.

8/14/2009 11:56:17 PM

Are there not laws regarding how long you can spend in one day driving a commercial vehicle? I do not want to share the roads with people who are being forced to work overtime towing a boat.

8/15/2009 12:00:56 AM

Quote :

"Arrive at office back at 1pm. New supervisor says we will have to wait till morning to leave again while Boat is fixed but to start driving again at 7am the next day. Fleet manager says lets see if we can't fix it now and see if they can't be on their way so we fill out an incident report and wait. Boat gets fixed and we leave again at 3pm with stronger equipment holding boat."

Is this the insubordination? Is fleet manager > your supervisor? If so why are you fired for following orders of fleet manager?

8/15/2009 12:02:43 AM

^no thats not the insubordination, its the not following orders to get to South Carolina. he swears that it was explicitly stated that i had to be in Columbia Thursday but ive got the email and i posted exactly how it was worded

yes there are laws but thats not actually the issue at hand as i don't usually drive for long hours straight, although i pulled a 14hr from New Orleans to Raleigh one day two weeks ago

but just in case you also wanted to know:
i work 70hrs a week which is a mix of driving/working as part of a crew sometimes for 3 weeks+ straight in a row with no days off
the office people work monday-friday 8am-5pm

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason : f]

8/15/2009 12:05:38 AM

oh not to mention the fact that he was perfectly fine with us waiting till 7am (get there at 10am the next day) because of the boat at first

8/15/2009 12:08:34 AM

at a minimum its pretty gay

8/15/2009 12:19:07 AM

"andy dick is so gay he doesn't even know it's gay" gay

8/15/2009 12:20:26 AM

did you call your new supervisor at 5:00pm to ask for his advice on what to do? if i've learned anything it's that bosses/people who think they are bosses want to be empowered and kept in the loop at all times.

hindsight is 20/20 though.

8/15/2009 12:38:55 AM

- having been here a week, he never made mention he would like to receive such a call before firing me, of course he said he would have liked that afterwards but ->
- ive never called a past supervisor for a similar situation UNLESS i was told "be there by 5pm thursday, meet someone at 8am Friday, etc..." which was not the case and i would have clearly followed through had it been

8/15/2009 12:46:10 AM

my first thought was "it seems like all this coulda been avoided had you gone to columbia that night"...but it kinda goes along with ^^ in that you could have called and checked and then got the ok to go to columbia

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 12:47 AM. Reason : .]

8/15/2009 12:47:22 AM

thanks for all the replies, can we move onto unemployment issues?

if i file a claim and the reason they list is insubordination by not getting to Columbia by thursday when i was only explicitly told to leave for Columbia thursday, tried my best, and outside influences also made it difficult...

how do we feel about those chances?

again im gonna call the DOL on monday but its bloody friday night and i gotta sit around and wrestle with this in my mind

8/15/2009 1:01:02 AM

^^^i guess with the supervisor only being there a week you didn't really have a feel for him yet. i just know that some of the people i work with get pissy when they aren't copied on emails/asked for their opinions on things (even if it isn't directly related to what they do).

anyway I'm sorry to hear about you losing your job. i hope you can bounce back and find a better situation.

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 1:10 AM. Reason : ]

8/15/2009 1:08:29 AM

thanks. i would be in law school except i stayed with the company to save up money beforehand. doh!

8/15/2009 1:24:34 AM

If all you're worried about is if you'll get unemployment, trust me, you'll get unemployment.

If you're trying to get your job back, or file some sort of suit against them, that's gonna be a waste of time.

8/15/2009 1:49:59 AM

no yeah the full title of the thread would have been if it was wrongful termination? and if not is it at least a good case for unemployment?

i think i have the answers to that so ill file in person on Monday, i just downloaded all my pay info off our HR website

ok so now i just need to figure out how much ill get and if i need to start selling things

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 3:50 AM. Reason : 428/week for 26 weeks to get fired? shit i might prefer that, sorry america]

8/15/2009 3:21:03 AM

If you don't have paperwork to backup your story, and it becomes a "he said, she said" discussion, they can fire you for not having been in Columbia when you were supposed to be. The otheremployee they'll handle separately for theft of company property (if they decide to). Forget everything else. Agree with others to call up Department of Labor on Monday, but, the documentation is going to be key. No documentation, no case.

Sucks what happened, as it seems to be all because of one new supervisor. One thing for the unemployment, make SURE you get something in writing with details for the termination from your HR department so you can claim benefits.

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 7:32 AM. Reason : .]

8/15/2009 7:29:23 AM

is the stopping at 5PM thing a written policy or just an understanding between the employees and the previous management?

8/15/2009 8:33:04 AM

holy shit words

i'll try to read this novel later...

8/15/2009 8:44:12 AM

^^^ what paperwork exactly do i need about the termination that you are referring to? ill get it on Monday

^^ and to all those who wonder about why we stop at 5 no matter what, maybe ill give a little better explanation:
From when I got hired in 2007 until January of this year, we worked whatever hours we wanted when we were outside of the state by ourselves. It could be 8am-5pm, it could be 9-6, it could be 8am-midnight if we chose to do so and both employess in the crew would get paid accordingly and no management ever complained.
In January they quoted the federal law which said they were not required to pay the passenger for hours spent in the company vehicle after office hours and they were going to start adhering to it strictly. Now I don't know how they could say it would be a "he said, she said" thing because my excoworkers have already agreed that they will put this in writing, but we all banded together and said that if thats the new policy then if we have to we will quit working at whatever time gets us in our hotel as close to 5pm so that noone is not getting paid, still working a full workday mind you. So if we're working in bumfuck Louisiana and theres not an approved hotel for 1.5hr away (trust me, this is often the case) then we will now stop at 3:30 with our regular work and make the drive till 5pm, instead of working till 5pm and driving till 6:30pm. this was not a sometimes occurance, this was now everyday procedure for us. The farther the hotel, the earlier we quit doing hand work and start driving to make it. Our THREE direct supervisors knew this well and were ok with it. Not only that but I personally brought it up during my employee review and if the supervisors weren't aware of it before than they certainly were afterwards. Now these supervisors are still around but the new guy is now above even them. I may or may not be able to get something in writing after the fact backing up what I just said from one or two of the supervisors. I'll definitely ask.

Now in this case in particular, I have NEVER before been required to get to a job through all obstacles come weather, natural disaster, injury, car wreck, heavy traffic, etc...unless specifically told to do so, which in this case I was given the general order to "Leave thursday" so direct insubordination seems extreme. Especially when I put in work from 7:45am to 5pm TRYING to get to Columbia and shit happened that prevented it. It's not the first time someone's had truck/trailer issues and its definitely not the first time someone's gotten lost and not made it. Employee B and ANOTHER employee got lost last week and they claimed it took an EXTRA 4 Hrs to get where they are going. Both simply written up.

This is entirely my opinion, but I feel like they are listing the direct insubordination in order to fight any claim I might make for unemployment. Alot of the stuff I see on labor law forums says they can't fight it if you just were dumb and did something stupid but if it was wanton disregard for the company and misconduct then you can't receive unemployment. Maybe I misunderstood that part but I now understand that it was completely legal of them to fire me, I just don't see how they can call it insubordination when all the days I worked before this new supervisor set a precedent that says otherwise and I'm not a bloody mindreader who knows what he expects differently. To me that just sounds like I wasn't working up to par for his level, which I guarantee could be said the same for every person in our department if thats the standard.

8/15/2009 10:36:28 AM

my opinion: file for unemployment. lie. get paid for not doing shit for a while.

8/15/2009 1:59:28 PM

n

[Edited on August 15, 2009 at 2:35 PM. Reason : n]

8/15/2009 2:31:49 PM

NC is a right to work state. The only wrongful termination cases are for discrimination.

A company in NC can fire you for ANYTHING, without cause or reason. You should definitely qualify for unemployment though.

8/16/2009 6:13:44 PM

i've had to deal with the department of labor a lot, they would disagree with you

8/16/2009 6:20:56 PM

I've always been a little confused by unemployment benefits, so after reading this I decided to look up some info. My thought was always that only people that were laid off could claim benefits, and those that were fired could not. This what somewhat reaffirmed when my sister got laid off from Walmart, they claimed they fired her, and she was denied unemployment. On the NCESC website (https://www.ncesc1.com/individual/webInitialClaims/applyBegin.asp) it says

"Potentially eligible claimants must have become unemployed through no fault of their own"[1][2]

For those of you who've been through this has this been your experience?



[1] NCGS § 96-13(g)(1) http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina/96-employment-security/96-13.html
[2] NCGS § 96-14(2a) http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina/96-employment-security/96-14.html


PS, Matt

8/16/2009 7:29:47 PM

i've been on the other side of it, that's how it works. a little while down the road you get something from the department of labor that they are seeking unemployment if they think there is a case. the employer can fight it though and provide documentation that they were fired because of whatever reason. the department of labor may come back requesting more information or that might be the end of it. telling the DOL that you fired them "just because" won't work, but if you have disciplinary forms and documentation the former employee isn't getting unemployment.

8/16/2009 7:36:33 PM

Quote :

"telling the DOL that you fired them "just because" won't work, but if you have disciplinary forms and documentation the former employee isn't getting unemployment."

so then you agree that in my case where ive been there for two years, no write ups, good recommednations from my other supervisors, AND no writeup was done on this incident i was just told "we're letting you go", i should get employment

ha ha, maybe i should have mentioned that before if that phrase is more indicative of a layoff than a firing but i wasnt written up before being fired/let go so i still have a perfect record

[Edited on August 16, 2009 at 8:10 PM. Reason : f]

8/16/2009 8:09:13 PM

and i don't know how much you want to burn bridges, but they are also empowered to go back a couple years if you feel you should have been paid for travel in the past but weren't (but i don't know the specifics for compensation requirements, i rarely have anyone traveling)

as far as OSHA violations, you can make an anonymous complaint but unless there are observable violations there isn't anything they can do. if you were talking about travel time though that falls under DOT or DOL, not any OSHA regulations that I know of (but I only have my 10hr card, so maybe)

8/16/2009 8:55:48 PM

8/16/2009 9:10:11 PM

If you do need documentation that you waited until 5 to stop, the hotel will be able to look up when you checked into the hotel, to the minute.

8/16/2009 9:11:00 PM

they have gps in our vehicles, they know to the minute

8/16/2009 9:16:20 PM

you got fired for fucking up the boat, but they didn't want you to come back on them for wrongful termination under some premise of it being their faulty trailer.

with that being said, they don't have to pay you for travel time as a passenger.

8/16/2009 11:17:29 PM

actually he specifically said it had nothing to do with the boat

and i understand they don't have to pay you as a passenger after hours, im saying ive never gone out of my way to drive after hours and ive never been forced to in the past and there was an understanding between my other supervisors that this was ok

8/17/2009 12:39:33 PM

Did he just "steal" your keys or did he have a copy of the truck key as well? If he didn't have access to the truck to begin with (you were the only one with the key), then I would have secured the key somehow. I would have been cautious about being with a troublesome co-worker, but I will admit, I probably would have left the keys out on the drawers or table where he could have easily picked them up anyways...

Sorry that happened to you

8/17/2009 12:59:57 PM