I hate them and am seriously considering removing them from the leg routine and replacing them with a ton more reps on leg press. i know squats are great but i am ready for a break from them. anyone else do legs without squats?

5/26/2009 2:10:41 PM

nope

5/26/2009 2:11:43 PM

You could go do Pilates if the big bad weights are to much.

5/26/2009 2:14:29 PM

leg exercises just suck in general, so i don't know how much of a "break" you'll be getting by moving to the press

5/26/2009 2:18:09 PM

trying using the small pink weights instead of the barbell

probably would help

also, if you do deadlifts, might want to remove those too. Anything "hard" is usually frowned upon in the weightlifting community.

5/26/2009 2:18:59 PM

ha, i dont not like them cause they are hard, im just getting old n shits creakin n crackin more than it used to

5/26/2009 2:20:25 PM

Squats are why I'm taking a month off. My hip flexors are fucked.

5/26/2009 2:30:44 PM

Do squats really put that much strain onto your body?

5/26/2009 2:31:30 PM

if you go heavy like i do then ya they can

5/26/2009 2:34:55 PM

Quote :

"anyone else do legs without squats?"

I had been doing leg presses for a few months and just did some squats last week for the first time and it reminded me why I love them so much.

5/26/2009 2:36:31 PM

due to my lower back injury i received at 14 from doing squats, I was avoiding them for the longest time...however, in the past few months, I've made them a major part of my routine and cannot go without them, while I only do 1 set of 18 reps total of squats on a leg day, i keep the weight heavy and take 20 second pauses in between reps of 8, 4, 3, 2, 1...

do you have a hack squat machine too or just linear leg press? I've seen tree trunk routines that involve no free weight squats but will use many of the machines and use various stances, high n narrow, wide n low...I'll do them for my hypertrophy sets, but if I'm going real heavy, I'd rather go free weight squats, lunges, rack pulls, & romanian dead lifts for my quads/hams

keep in mind, because of my lower back injury history, I'm certainly not doing ATG/sumo/ME squats, just a slightly wider than shoulder ~90 degrees at the knees squat @ ~1.5x BW..I usually hit the quads/hams 2x week, 4 exercises each time out, not a tremendous amount of volume, just pretty heavy for 2 rest-pause sets and then 10 hypertrophy sets at a moderate weight, I'll save the isolation lifts like leg curls/quad extensions for the hypertrophy sets and the compound lifts, squats, leg press, hack squats, dead lifts, rack pulls, lunges for the rest-pause sets.

5/26/2009 2:45:17 PM

squats and lunges are really the most complete leg exercises out there.

fortunately, you can get a great leg workout doing both with ONLY your body weight. so, if weighted squats are bothering you, rock out sets of 25 with no weight and like 40 seconds rest in between.

5/26/2009 2:54:30 PM

Squirts, Again

5/26/2009 3:07:00 PM

Quote :

"if you go heavy like i do then ya they can"

heavy is a subjective term.

you're not going to see anywhere near the same results with the leg press as you will with squats. if your legs aren't hurting at the end of any leg workout, then you're not doing it right.

5/26/2009 9:58:34 PM

The problem with squats I think is that they strain your back so much. For the most part, they tell people not to do squats in the weight lifting classes at state. They prefer the hip sled/leg press. If you're determined to stick to squats the best thing I can think of is to make sure you use a weight that allows you to do them with perfect form.

Personally, I haven't done squats in probably 8 months. I switched entirely to the hip sled, and its done wonder for my back.

5/26/2009 10:16:25 PM

Do squat hops.


Start with your arms out in front of you, feet flat, chest out, back like a ski jump, your legs parallel to the floor, and eyes looking up. Jump up as high as you can, bring your arms down to your sides, and point your toes down. Land and repeat. Do a few sets of 10 or 15.

5/26/2009 10:38:32 PM

Quote :

"The problem with squats I think is that they strain your back so much. For the most part, they tell people not to do squats in the weight lifting classes at state. They prefer the hip sled/leg press. If you're determined to stick to squats the best thing I can think of is to make sure you use a weight that allows you to do them with perfect form. "

What a load of shit. They don't teach them, because they can be a hard to teach lift, if the prof. has no clue how to do them properly. Plus, w/ a class of people on varying levels, the input from a coach on the squat will be different from person to person. It would require a lot of one on one time to get everyone on somewhat the same page, and even then, people will have different ablilties in terms of depth and weight position.


The "strain on your back" is one of the reasons they are an essential to lower body work.



Repub, shut up and squat




But really, how often are you squatting? Have you tried other variations on the standard back squat, ones that may be a little easier on you... zerchers, barbell hack, dip belt (on boxes), pistols ?

Lunges and step ups are good, too, but they are more about extended range of motion. They will still activate your quads, but the emphasis is a little dif. --may be a good sub, depending on your programming.

5/26/2009 11:35:21 PM

Quote :

"They don't teach them, because they can be a hard to teach lift"

actually they don't teach them because they are not a good exercise for life long fitness. I took the class with three different guys and they all recommended not doing them. The biggest concern to them was the long term effects on your back and knees.

You can be all mr badass doing squats for the next 10 years if you want, but be prepared to face the consequences down the road. I used to be the same way.. no pain, no gain right? But sometimes doing things the less painful way is more beneficial in the long run. I'm pretty confident you can work all the same muscles with different lifts and skip the extra stress on your back.

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 4:05 AM. Reason : .]

5/27/2009 4:03:44 AM

That is a dated fallacy, based on missapplied research. There is nothing better for healthier knees (and a healthy midsection/lower back( but not to the same degree as say, a deadlift (another underated lift by med community)) than a correctly done squat. A proper squat should not cause knee problems or back problems. However, doing them w/ bad form WILL.

Quote :

"The biggest concern to them was the long term effects on your back and knees"

The VERY reason you SHOULD be doing squats and deads.

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 4:49 AM. Reason : ]

5/27/2009 4:47:28 AM

Seriously, squats are bad on your back and knees? Bullshit. That can be said for most things done with poor form.

Squats are the most natural movement there is.

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 5:29 AM. Reason : ]

5/27/2009 5:28:53 AM

On the rare days that I do legs, I don't do squats. In high school, the bar would rest directly on a vertebrae and hurt like hell. I haven't tried them in a long time, but I don't really do leg work that much.

5/27/2009 8:27:45 AM

Use flat soled shoes for your serious leg workouts. Running shoes place your feet, ankles, and knees in poor alignment for lifting heavy weights. I have also heard it put forth that using a weight belt promotes a weak core and the subsequent bad form. I feel much stronger having dumped the belt and dropped weight till I could work my way back up.


Also:



If you're bored with squats, switch up and do some kettlebell workouts. Learn how to do them right though, most people treat them as a variation of a regular dumb-bell and entirely miss the point.



That being said, I am not a gym rat, I just work weights into my overall workout so this with an appropriate dose of salt.

5/27/2009 8:50:02 AM

^Do you Kbell?

I've had mine for a while but have only recently really started to increase my numbers with it; so im probably still a bit of a noob

just looking for someone to compare notes with (critique my form) and possibly workout with during the week.

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 10:28 AM. Reason : flat soled shoes, no weight belt? you sound like you might be a dragondoor/pavel/hardstyle fan too?]

5/27/2009 10:25:40 AM

Quote :

"That is a dated fallacy, based on missapplied research. There is nothing better for healthier knees (and a healthy midsection/lower back( but not to the same degree as say, a deadlift (another underated lift by med community)) than a correctly done squat. A proper squat should not cause knee problems or back problems. However, doing them w/ bad form WILL."

You can't just spout this bull shit and expect me to believe it without offering some kind of evidence. Do you have any research to back up your assertions? I'm talking about advice from 3 different guys with like 20+ years of experience...you seem to be operating off your opinion. I mean, if you have something concrete I'm more than willing to re-evaluate my opinions about squats, but right now it just sounds like you're making shit up.

5/27/2009 11:10:09 AM

^ read this

http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Squats.html

following "3 guys with 20+ years of experience" doesn't mean a damn thing, except that you blindly listen to what you're told and don't do any research on your own. There have been enough studies and research done to show that a properly performed squat can be beneficial for knees, back, etc.

5/27/2009 12:22:13 PM

^ yeah genius, b/c me blindly listening to some meathead on the internet is better.

But at least you're producing some evidence and there seems to be proof that squats can be beneficial. My concerns with the stuff in your link is 1) it glosses over the high number of injuries by basically saying those people were doing their squats wrong and 2) it doesn't seem to address long term effects. What are my knees and back going to be like after doing squats for 30 years versus doing other lifts? I can't find any research on that, just tons of message boards full of so called experts having the same argument we are.

5/27/2009 12:59:56 PM

are you kidding me?

squats are my favorite exercise.

I can do them shits allllllllll day.

5/27/2009 1:07:28 PM

Quote :

"flat soled shoes, no weight belt? you sound like you might be a dragondoor/pavel/hardstyle fan too?"

Kinda. I've got a friend down here who practically treats kettlebells like a cult. He's emotionally attached to the damn things. Between working out with him and following Crossfit occasionally, I've moved into the barefoot / belt-less crowd. They won't let me work out barefoot in the gym, so I got a pair of five-fingers the other day.

I'm not that wedded to them, but given that I had a lot of 12 and 14 hour work days over the last few months, not including the work I took home with me, the kettlebell was huge in letting me work out while on a time crunch.

5/27/2009 1:14:58 PM

5/27/2009 1:20:31 PM

It's funny that the "internet know it all" is questioning the percieved "internet meatheads/know it alls" (the ones w/ initials after their names.... the same ones (well the majority of whom) whom are voicing a desenting opinion to your dumbassery).

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM. Reason : ]

5/27/2009 2:09:39 PM

Quote :

"I've moved into the barefoot / belt-less crowd"

werd, a grassy spot and a barefoot KB workout makes getting fit so much more pleasant

Quote :

"I've got a friend down here who practically treats kettlebells like a cult"

im afraid im moving in the same direction

5/27/2009 2:16:49 PM

I generally lift in socks, w/ my flat soled shoes (addidas gazelles) nearby. (I don't trust people, as I walk by them). I've also have a pair of Do-wins for squats and oly lifts.

I generally only use belts if I'm going near max.



[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 2:44 PM. Reason : Tailaige, check pms]

5/27/2009 2:23:21 PM

^^ Yeah, and the rain washes the away.

5/27/2009 2:30:08 PM

Quote :

"CONCLUSIONS: Squatting from 70 degrees to 110 degrees of knee flexion had little effect on patellofemoral joint kinetics. The relative constancy of the patellofemoral joint reaction force and joint stress appeared to be related to a consistent knee extensor moment produced across the three squatting depths. RELEVANCE: The results of this study do not support the premise that squatting to 110 degrees places greater stress on the patellofemoral joint than squatting to 70 degrees. These findings may have implications with respect to the safe design of athletic training regimens and rehabilitation programs."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11390050?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Quote :

"CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194098?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Quote :

"CONCLUSIONS: The greater muscle activity and knee forces in the squat compared with the LPL and LPH implies the squat may be more effective in muscle development but should be used cautiously in those with PCL and PF disorders, especially at greater knee flexion angles. Because all forces increased with knee flexion, training within the functional 0-50 degrees range may be efficacious for those whose goal is to minimize knee forces. The lack of ACL forces implies that all exercises may be effective during ACL rehabilitation."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528346?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Quote :

"Using a validated 3D nonlinear finite element model, detailed biomechanics of the entire joint in closed-kinetic-chain squat exercises are investigated at different flexion angles, weights in hands, femur-tibia orientations and coactivity in hamstrings. Predictions are in agreement with results of earlier studies. Estimation of small forces in cruciate ligaments advocates the use of squat exercises at all joint angles and external loads. In contrast, large contact stresses, especially at the patellofemoral joint, that approach cartilage failure threshold in compression suggest avoiding squatting at greater flexion angles, joint moments and weights in hands. Current results are helpful in comprehensive evaluation and design of effective exercise therapies and trainings with minimal risk to various components."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Quote :

"CONCLUSION: The data indicate that during squatting, patellofemoral joint stress increases as the knee flexion angle increases, and that the addition of external resistance further increases patellofemoral joint stress. These findings suggest that in order to limit patellofemoral joint stress during squatting activities, clinicians should consider limiting terminal joint flexion angles and resistance loads. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

5/27/2009 2:51:08 PM

granted these articles unleash another debate on depth...

5/27/2009 3:38:56 PM

I'm gonna disagree with the above. My orthopaedic surgeon told me never again in my life to do squats or lunges. He said over time they tear up your knees.

His creditials are as follows:

W. Norman Scott, M.D. is a Clinical Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Associate Attending Orthopaedic Surgeon with Lenox Hill Hospital and North Shore LIJ Heath System, and a founding director of Insall Scott Kelly. He has served as the team physician for the New York Knicks from 1978 -2005, was orthopaedic consultant for the NY Liberty from 1997-2005. He was the previous team physician for the New York Rangers from 1980-1987, and the 1992 US Olympic Basketball Team. He also served as the Head Physician for the 79th Professional Golfer's Assocation (PGA) Championship in 1997 , the 1993 US Open (USGA), and the 1990 Curtiss Cup.

Dr Scott is a founding member and past President of the Knee Society and is active in many professional organizations. He is also the past president of the NBA Physicians Association. He serves as a member on the Editorial Advisory board of the Journal of Arthroplasty.

A frequent lecturer (over 200 presentations) and publisher (over 100 peer reviewed scientific articles and 12 books), Dr. Scott has extensive experience in orthopaedic research. Both his publications and presentations are in the area of Sports Medicine and adult knee reconstruction.

So I'm gonna take his word over those linked articles

5/27/2009 4:46:49 PM

One of the reasons postulated for why squats get a bad rap is that doctors only see people with problems, not all the healthy ones.

So for example, if a particular doctor only sees patients that complain of knee problems due to (incorrectly performed) squats, he might conclude that all squats are bad.

EDIT

Faulty links in order

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11390050?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194098?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528346?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19308868?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11949662?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Edited on May 27, 2009 at 6:26 PM. Reason : ]

5/27/2009 6:19:09 PM

The biggest problem with squats is that everyone swears they're doing them right and half those people aren't even close. Everything I've ever read says squats done with good form are perfectly fine, but if you do them wrong for an extended period of time you may as well just take a sledgehammer to your legs.

5/27/2009 6:29:39 PM

I bet half the dumbass doctors that rant against squats never take into consideration that a lot of the people complaining of knee pain are also doing leg extensions with horrible form and letting the machine pry on their knee joint.

I no longer squat deeper than parallel anymore, but I didn't stop because of knee problems. I just read enough literature that seemed to indicate that it could be a problem due to my leg size and shape, so I cut off at parallel now.

5/27/2009 6:57:18 PM

I've never sat in a leg extension machine that felt remotely natural. I don't see the point either. Unless you're body-building, why do exercises that don't support / utilize natural motions you will use on a regular basis?

I pick up heavy things, therefore I deadlift / squat. I will never sit in a chair and pry something up with my shins. What then, is the point of leg extensions?

5/27/2009 9:36:38 PM

^Did you line up your knees with the little red dot?

5/27/2009 9:52:32 PM

how natural is the squat motion though, when you really think about it? Are you worried that the next time you go to take a shit, a heavy pile of steel is going to fall onto your back and you're not going to be able to get back up again? squats are a great way to make the legs grow, and nothing more.

If you've ever kicked something before, then you've seen the practicality of leg extensions.

5/27/2009 9:54:21 PM

I'd argue that it is pretty damn natural. It doesn't really matter what you're lifting, a straight back with a strong core and strong legs will help lift that weight, be it supported across your back, cradled in your arms, or centered on your hips (rucksack for example).

If kicking is what you're doing, there are more explosive exercises like box jumps, kettle bell swings, GHD situps, etc. for building the same muscles.

Again, this is just me speaking with my admittedly limited knowledge. I don't have the time or inclination to use machines that target specific muscle groups. If it works for you, more power to you.

5/27/2009 10:10:27 PM

http://www.kfbk.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104673&article=5513941

5/27/2009 10:34:06 PM

Quote :

"One of the reasons postulated for why squats get a bad rap is that doctors only see people with problems, not all the healthy ones."

That doesn't exactly address the experience my doctor has, unless you're arguing that the majority of the players he looked over (entire teams) had bad knees?

He also told me that wall sits are bad for knees. I don't think its possible to really screw that exercise up. He didn't say not to do them b/c of bad form, he said not to do them b/c over the years its too much undo stress on your knees.

Maybe I'm applying logic improperly here, but the way I see it is if if its bad for someone with a reconstructed ligament, there's no way it can actually be good for someone with uninjured knees.

5/27/2009 11:34:27 PM

Quote :

"the bar would rest directly on a vertebrae and hurt like hell."

Pretty much my problem. I'm damn near inflexible at the shoulder level and can barely get the bar in a position where it isn't scraping on a knot in my neck. By the time I get in position to actually do a squat I'm sweating like I've been on a treadmill for five minutes.

5/28/2009 12:02:00 AM

This is how you do the dead lift with correct form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svD0_0DIOAo

5/28/2009 12:46:34 AM

i know that was sarcasm, but that was terrible form

5/28/2009 12:49:08 AM

haha...found in the related videos...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB3kzDHgmYw&feature=related

I prefer her technique.

5/28/2009 12:53:37 AM

whatever, she has a nice body

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 1:44 AM. Reason : and she's driving down through her toes]

5/28/2009 1:42:58 AM