Quote :

"PETA Protests Westminster Dog Show What does the Westminster dog show have in common with the KKK? According to PETA: plenty. The organization donned white robes and pointy hats as they protested the show outside of Madison Square Garden yesterday, declaring "the American Kennel Club promotes pure-breeding of dogs that is harmful to their health." Last year they explained this on their blog, and this year they took it to the masses with materials that read: "The KKK and the AKC: BFF?'' Such accusatory acronyms! PETA spokesman Michael McGraw admits "it's an uncomfortable comparison," but he insists the AKC is trying to create a "master race" (not to mention breeding while adorable mutts overflow the shelters). You can read their entire leaflet here. Meanwhile, a spokesman for Westminster, David Frei, contends handlers "are more interested in the health of dogs than anything else. We want to produce the next generation of healthy and happy dogs." Well, that last part does sort of have a "cleansing" tone to it, no?"

http://gothamist.com/2009/02/10/peta_protests_westminster.php

seriously? They should be happy they didnt get their asses kicked.

2/10/2009 10:38:50 AM

I guess it's better than firebombing the dog show. PETA is nucking futs. Watch Bulllshit Season 2 episode 1.

They kill more animals than they save every year.

2/10/2009 10:42:18 AM

In other news, NAACP demands AKC change the breed name of Black Lab to African American Lab

2/10/2009 10:43:49 AM

lets not be silly

2/10/2009 10:51:22 AM

i wouldnt put it past them

2/10/2009 10:56:43 AM

Hmmm, I guess its better than dressing up like Nazi SS? That definitely wouldn't go over well with NYC's Jewish population

2/10/2009 10:57:39 AM

^^ labs arnt from Africa. thats just retarded.

^ also theres no way in hell you could get me to dress up like a KKK guy and stand anywhere in new york. A black guy is going to kick the shit out of some guy way before some hassid does.

2/10/2009 11:04:41 AM

Don't feed the PETA trolls with the attention they crave.

2/10/2009 11:33:56 AM

^Yeah, this. I'll bet their hero is Cindy Sheehan. At some point it becomes more about getting the attention than delivering any message.

2/10/2009 11:42:25 AM

We got crazy hippy PETA people on the left and righteous nutbat christian evangelicals on the right. I wouldn't shed a tear if we threw both groups into a cellar and never let them out.

2/10/2009 12:03:01 PM

^ But the evangelical would have an advantage; he'd have no qualms about eating tofu-fed, PETA meat.

2/10/2009 1:04:15 PM

aha

seriously though. peta is not only nuts, but dishonest.

the KKK isnt about creating a master race. that was the Third Reich.

like someone said, they should have dressed up as Nazis.


[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2009 4:25:13 PM

The Pen & Teller bit:

2/10/2009 5:00:10 PM

Quote :

"Meanwhile, a spokesman for Westminster, David Frei, contends handlers "are more interested in the health of dogs than anything else. We want to produce the next generation of healthy and happy dogs.""

Although the AKC doesn't give awards to mutts, they do promote healthy standards of pet keeping and do plenty of outreach to find homes, medical treatment, and healthy living environments for all dogs. To compare them to the KKK is absolutely ridiculous.

2/10/2009 5:23:42 PM

PETA knows that around 30 million people live in slavery around the globe right?
That Darfur is still going on?
That theres an AIDS epidemic in Africa?

I just don't see the point of devoting your life to such a dumbshit jerkoff cause with so much more important stuff still out there.

2/10/2009 5:56:48 PM

Quote :

"Teller and I would personally kill every chimp in the world with our bare hands to save one street junkie with AIDS"

-Penn

LOLS

2/10/2009 6:23:36 PM

PETA is full of stupid assholes. So is the AKC. I'm not sure who to side with on this.

Eh, fuck both of them.

Quote :

"I just don't see the point of devoting your life to such a dumbshit jerkoff cause with so much more important stuff still out there."

I tend to feel the same way, but it leads to the difficult problem of setting up a hierarchy of the world's problems.

According to the WHO, AIDS ranks 4th on the list of things killing people in low-income countries. Respiratory infections, heart disease, and plain old diarrhea kill many more. Genocide and other violence doesn't even rank in the top ten. But even though AIDS isn't the worst, it still isn't a jerkoff cause.

And the world's never going to be perfect for people. Somewhere, humans will always be suffering. Since, as you seem to presume, animals < people, the logical conclusion is that animal rights will always be a jerkoff cause and should never be a concern, because there's always something bad happening to people somewhere.

2/10/2009 7:26:05 PM

I fucking hate PETA.

2/10/2009 7:32:06 PM

Heh, I'm putting this up on my ANS 105 class discussion board. Should be interesting to see animal people's reactions.

2/10/2009 9:36:04 PM

^should be VERY interesting hearing what they have to say

2/10/2009 10:25:25 PM

^ why? it wouldn't be any different than the reactions already shown in this thread.

2/10/2009 11:10:26 PM

Quote :

"ANS 105"

.... because there will be a lot of fucking experts in THAT class

i'd trust the collective wisdom of TDub over a class full of first-year freshmen any day.

2/11/2009 10:40:24 AM

^hahaha, exactly. But the point still holds, the response wouldn't be any different than this thread.

2/11/2009 11:31:58 AM

Quote :

"labs arnt from Africa. thats just retarded."

Most black Americans (wanting to be called African Americans) aren't African... .. . . . thats just retarded

I wish there was a way to can PETA once and for all. The lies, propaganda, and out right stupid ideas/claims/etc they make are getting old.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2009 12:45:14 PM

i know a white girl is technically is more "African American" than 99% of the blacks living in the US. As she was born in Zimbabwe than moved to the US where she became a citizen.

2/11/2009 12:46:31 PM

^now that is an African American.

2/11/2009 12:47:03 PM

^,^^ and i guess we should start saying people of asian descent living in american are yellow americans. please gtfo.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 1:29 PM. Reason : [ps - PETA is fucking retarded]

2/11/2009 1:28:44 PM

Quote :

"I tend to feel the same way, but it leads to the difficult problem of setting up a hierarchy of the world's problems."

Agreed.

Quote :

"Since, as you seem to presume, animals < people, the logical conclusion is that animal rights will always be a jerkoff cause and should never be a concern, because there's always something bad happening to people somewhere."

Animal rights has it's place, but dumbshit jerkoff stuff like liberating house pets will always take a backseat to legitimate issues.

2/11/2009 1:52:18 PM

Quote :

"^ why? it wouldn't be any different than the reactions already shown in this thread."

I expect there to be people there who actually like PETA. Nobody's replied yet.

2/11/2009 3:31:34 PM

Quote :

"Animal rights has it's place, but dumbshit jerkoff stuff like liberating house pets will always take a backseat to legitimate issues."

Well, yeah, because they're illegitimate. I get that. But, of course, if you really truly believe that animals are on a rough moral equivalent with people then it seems like the mass slavery and subjugation of an enormous population, and so of course then the problem not only becomes legitimate, it becomes the #1 concern.

The problem is that they're wrong, not that they're misallocating their efforts.

2/11/2009 3:36:21 PM

Even if you think that animals are on a rough moral equivalent with people and want to fight slavery, it should be pretty obvious that the existance of sex trafficking is a greater evil than the existance of house pets.

2/11/2009 3:53:47 PM

Is there anyone on this board that's a member of PETA or can take their side on this one?

2/11/2009 4:03:03 PM

^

i'm not "officially" a member of PETA... but i get a shit ton of their newsletters in my email. local activists mail me trying to get me to show up to various protests around seattle from time to time.

ive never gone to any events, but think i may have given them some small amount of money once or twice. probably how i wound up on their lists.

i do respect a lot of the work they do on behalf of primates and dogs and the undercover work exposing abuse of factory farm animals

but i think they've gone off the deep end lately. some of their recent shenanigans have left me seriously thinking WTF... a few cases in point:

(1) they're still screaming about Michael Vick. they want him to be forced into some treatment and/or brain scan before the NFL allows him to play. now thats just fucked up. the dude did his time and made some very strongly worded public apologies.

(2) "Sea Kittens." is that shit REALLY real??? thats got to be a spoof. but it's not, is it? who thought that was a good idea? who gave that the green light??

(3) this shit about dog shows is pretty retarded. i understand the general issues about breeders and puppy farms, and how we have so many dogs being destroyed is sad... but dog shows is not the same thing. and the KKK bullshit is just intellectually dishonest.

(4) more things i cant recall offhand.

if I WAS a member of PETA, i would be canceling my membership. as it is, i just mostly ignore their emails for now.

2/11/2009 5:47:13 PM

Quote :

"I expect there to be people there who actually like PETA. Nobody's replied yet."

Well here are some comments on the event from the PETA we-site....

Quote :

"This dog show is paid for by the blood money from dogs suffering in puppy mills right now. The AKC makes most of its money from puppy mill registrations, from some of the most cruel dog breeding factories in the country And those AKC breeders in the show ring DON'T CARE, because they all are running tax cheat businesses selling dogs and making money too!"

Quote :

"That is absolutely beautiful; you guys are amazing."

Quote :

"Stuff like this is why my wife and I love PETA. Even before I came to senses and became a vegitarian, I always thought clipping dog's ears and docking their tails was cruel. And it's group like this that help perpetuate this abuse by requiring it. Whenever I see one of those shows, they always reminded me of a facist spectacle. "

Quote :

"THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD BREEDER - ESPECIALLY IN A WORLD FULL OF SHELTER ANIMALS!!!"

Quote :

"Before you send people out there in sheets, you should know that the KKK is alive and well in many parts of the country, some of them are extremely dangerous and use terrorist tactics and are not above retaliating against those who they feel are making fun of them or misusing their cause. Please be very, very careful, they are not just in the Southern United States"

Quote :

"Even Show dogs suffer. They have to remain in "mint" condition. So this mean solitary confinment so their coats don't get messed up from playing with other of their own species. We don't even do that to prisioners. Can you imagine being a dog and not even being about to run around in the grass or play with another of your own species. Someone should do an expose on the life of a show dog/cat. Hitler wanted to create the supreme race too. Add that into your spin. Hitler and KKK go hand in hand."

Quote :

"I am a college educated woman of color and believe that peta is spot on. The connection is blatant; the species differs but the ideas are the same. Thank you for bringing breedism to the attention of Westminster attendees!"

And this is from the handout they passed out at Westminster...

Quote :

"Like the Klan, dog breeders who subscribe to AKC standards are all about the sanctity of “pure bloodlines.” So what if beagles have epileptic seizures, Dalmatians are deaf, and pugs can barely breathe because of how they are purposely bred to look a certain way? Looks are everything! And did you know that if dogs’ coloring isn’t just right, they may get “culled”? No, they aren’t hanged from a tree, but they are killed. Sound familiar? We believe what really matters aren’t silly things like being able to breathe instead of having a squashed-in Pekingese face, being able to walk without pain instead of having hip dysplasia, and being able to see instead of having congenital eye problems from being inbred—it’s what an individual looks like on the outside that counts! We like the way the AKC thinks. At the KKK, we advocate the idea of a “master race,” and the AKC promotes genetic manipulation to create a “master pedigree.” Master race, master pedigree—same thing, different species. Love it!"

2/11/2009 7:23:09 PM

Quote :

"I expect there to be people there who actually like PETA. Nobody's replied yet."

Dude, its an animal science class. If anything the hate will be worse than this thread.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 8:34 PM. Reason : <- - ANS major]

2/11/2009 8:33:48 PM

I'm not getting the logical leap here: why would animal science people not like a group dedicated (with varying degrees of fanaticism) to treating animals better?

2/12/2009 1:27:56 AM

^
They are complete opposites. Their goals are about as far apart as you can get.

One views animals as [almost?] equal to humans. (can't own them, can't eat them, can't hunt them, can't cage them...)
They are equal members of society.

The other views animals as material (own it, eat it, kill it, shape it, cut it, kick it, force-feed it, cage it, whatever...)
They are just matter, like wood or fabric. A means to an end, and nothing else.
(Make no mistake, I hate PETA, but don't ever believe an animal scientist that says they care about animals.)

The large majority of "normal" people fall someone in-between, myself included.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM. Reason : ]

2/12/2009 2:36:59 AM

Animals are material. Unless they look cute. And sometimes when they look cute but their precious little souls will be useful to make medicines to help humanity and other animals.

But seriously, PETA is totally opposed to the concept of animal science. They're totally opposed to owning pets. They've firebombed research clinics and have lectured to college and high school students how to do so. http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/1758
And you can find the video of this scumbag showing college students how to make a firebomb on that Bullshit episode.

They're a terrorist organization and I don't know why we haven't destroyed them yet.

2/12/2009 8:44:33 AM

Quote :

"why would animal science people not like a group dedicated (with varying degrees of fanaticism) to treating animals better?"

I think you are confusing animal rights with animal welfare. You'll learn about it later in the 105 class.

PETA:

Quote :

"Animal rights, also known as animal liberation, is the idea that the most basic interests of animals should be afforded the same consideration as the similar interests of human beings.[1] Animal rights advocates approach the issue from different philosophical positions, but they agree that animals should no longer be regarded as property, or used as food, clothing, research subjects, or entertainment, but should instead be viewed as legal persons and members of the moral community."

Animal Science:

Quote :

"Animal welfare refers to the viewpoint that it is morally acceptable for humans to use nonhuman animals for food, in animal research, as clothing, and in entertainment, so long as unnecessary suffering is avoided. The position is contrasted with the animal rights position, which holds that other animals should not be used by, or regarded as the property of, humans"

2/12/2009 9:24:29 AM

Quote :

"I'm not getting the logical leap here: why would animal science people not like a group dedicated (with varying degrees of fanaticism) to treating animals better?"

Animal science students are against PETA (and if there is one or two who is not, well they should be). PETA is threatening our lifestyles and future jobs. Animal researchers/scientists, animal caretakers/keepers, veterinarians, meat farmers, and anyone else who works with animals, all depend on those animals existing. If PETA gets their way and these domestic animals cease to exist, we won't have jobs. Perhaps you don't understand exactly what PETA is trying to do. They are trying to eradicate all domestic species, as well as make it so that humans have no contact whatsoever with other species, unless it is admiring them from afar. If there is one animal science student who likes them then he or she is nuts.

2/12/2009 9:43:24 AM

Quote :

"They've firebombed research clinics and have lectured to college and high school students how to do so."

I was previously unaware of this.

Quote :

"...this scumbag showing college students how to make a firebomb.... They're a terrorist organization and I don't know why we haven't destroyed them yet."

I could see this being about the ALF (animal liberation front), but PETA?....little children are in PETA.

I followed that link to what appeared to be a very one-sided meat industry web site, or something. The story reported that some individual burned down a research lab at Michigan State University, and that afterwords, "PETA thought so highly of this crime that it gave [him] over $70,000 from its tax-exempt treasury.". If they did give him money, that's only funding terrorism -- a slightly lower crime (but yes...still heinous). The story went on to cite other instances of PETA funding these domestic terrorist acts, but at least one of the links was broken, and all of the other links appeared to eventually lead to this:

Quote :

"The Center for Consumer Freedom's research into PETA's 1995-2000 IRS tax filings found: In April 2001, PETA gave a direct contribution of $1500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF) to "support their program activities." Among its long list of crimes, ELF claimed credit for the 1998 firebombing of the Vail Ski Resort, resulting in $12 million in damages. In January 1995, PETA gave a $45,200 contribution to the "support committee" of Rodney Coronado, a convicted arsonist who firebombed a research facility at Michigan State University. PETA also gave an unreturned $25,000 "loan" to Rodney Coronado's father in 1994. In January 2001, PETA gave $5000 to the "Josh Harper Support Committee." Josh Harper is an ALF-affiliated criminal arrested numerous times and convicted for assaulting a police officer. In 1998, Harper told an Oregon newspaper "we're going to continue to be confrontational, we're going to continue to be militant. If people see that as extreme, then so be it." In August 1999, PETA gave $2,000 to David Wilson, a Utah-based animal-rights extremist who was then a national "spokesperson" for ALF. Wilson has bragged, "We started with animal rights, but we've expanded to wildlife actions like the [1998 arson] in Vail." The Center for Consumer Freedom is a nonprofit coalition supported by restaurants, food companies, and consumers, working together to promote personal responsibility and protect consumer choices."

...and I'm wondering, "Their research into PETA?" If they're basically some meat group, and they say this is what they found, I'm sure you understand why someone might want to see some more evidence.... Could you point us in the right direction?

2/12/2009 9:51:25 AM

Quote :

"Most ominously, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk was involved in the multi-million-dollar arson at Michigan State University that resulted in a 57-month prison term for Animal Liberation Front bomber Rodney Coronado. At Coronado’s sentencing hearing, U.S. Attorney Michael Dettmer said that PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk arranged ahead of time to have Coronado send her a pair of FedEx packages from Michigan -- one on the day before he burned the lab down, and the other shortly afterward. The first FedEx, according to the Sentencing Memorandum, was delivered to a woman named Maria Blanton, “a longtime PETA member who had agreed to accept the first Federal Express package from Coronado after being asked to do so by Ingrid Newkirk.” The FBI intercepted the second package, which had been sent to the same address. It contained documents that Coronado stole before lighting his firebombs, as well as “a videotape of the perpetrator of the MSU crime, disguised in a ski mask.” Since Coronado was convicted of the arson, we now know that he himself was that masked man. “Significantly,” wrote U.S. Attorney Dettmer, “Newkirk had arranged to have the package[s] delivered to her days before the MSU arson occurred.” (emphasis in the original)"

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/21

Oh and from http://www.michaelspecter.com/ny/2003/2003_04_14_peta.html:

Quote :

"On January 26th, for instance, a bomb--dispatched by Palestinian terrorists--exploded on the road between Jerusalem and the West Bank settlement of Gush Etzion. Nobody was seriously injured, but the explosives were strapped onto a donkey and detonated remotely. The donkey was killed. The following week, Newkirk wrote to Yasir Arafat. "Your Excellency,'' the letter began. "All nations behave abominably in many ways when they are fighting their enemies, and animals are always caught in the crossfire. The U.S. Army abandoned thousands of loyal service dogs in Vietnam. Al-Qaeda and the British government have both used animals in hideously cruel biological weaponry tests. We watched on television as stray cats in your own compound fled as best they could from the Israeli bulldozers." Newkirk ended the letter by asking Arafat to leave the animals out of the conflict. She made no mention of the vast human toll the violence in the Middle East has taken. "We are named People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals," she told me when I asked about it. "There are plenty of other groups that worry about the humans.'' A couple of days later, Newkirk sent me a satirical story that ran in the Onion headlined, "heroic peta commandos kill 49, save rabbit." She thought it was hilarious."

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM. Reason : .]

Ok, I admit these are coming from the same place. I'm going to try to find the laywer's quote from another source.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

And here's the sentencing document: http://www.eskimo.com/~rarnold/Sentencing%20Memo.pdf

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason : bam]

2/12/2009 10:55:26 AM

Ah, thanks for the information, y'all.

2/12/2009 11:37:05 AM

Quote :

"But, of course, if you really truly believe that animals are on a rough moral equivalent with people then it seems like the mass slavery and subjugation of an enormous population, and so of course then the problem not only becomes legitimate, it becomes the #1 concern."

OMFG!!! GENOCIDE!!!

Stray dogs being killed in Baghdad
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/12/baghdad.dogs/index.html

But I guess it's more comforting to use inflammatory anti-establishment shock tactics at a dog show than to organize some sort of rescue of Iraqi dogs that would otherwise be poisoned and gunned down in the streets. Honestly, is it about the animals or is it about getting attention for yourselves?

For me, PETA falls into the category of activism that doesn't really help anyone or accomplish anything, aside from allowing self-righteous PETA members to sleep well at night and sit on high horses knowing that they took part in something larger.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM. Reason : ..]

2/12/2009 1:32:34 PM

as usual, PETA has a decent point, but they make themselves look like fools by presenting it in an obnoxiously heavy-handed and exaggerated way.

pure-breeding dogs definitely leads to genetic defects and weaknesses. mutts (from what i understand) are generally healthier and have less problems in later life.

PETA just did this KKK shit to get recognized.

2/12/2009 1:51:50 PM

Quote :

"as usual, PETA has a decent point"

I'm sorry, I have to take exception to this. PETA's insane tactics notwithstanding, their philosophy is offensive. They devalue human life. To compare pet ownership to slavery is insulting to both loving pet holders and actual human slaves. To compare animal food processing to the Holocaust is just sick. To be a vegan is one thing, but to be a militant vegan group that calls for violence against humanity is disgusting.

The sad part is that a lot of people that contribute to PETA are animal lovers that have no idea what PETA's actual philosophy is. My favorite part of the bullshit episode is where they call out one of Newkirk's lieutenants for using insulin which is a product of animal testing to control her diabetes.

2/12/2009 2:10:03 PM

Peta strikes gold again!

2/12/2009 2:43:22 PM

^^
I hate to defend PETA, but your repeated accusations of violence aren't proven, so you really should stop making them. All you seem to have is what one lawyer says....right? Is there an ongoing FBI investigation? Has PETA ever been convicted? or even charged? Don't get me wrong: If it turns out to be true, that's fine -- I'm just on the fence because the evidence is weak -- especially weak when it's mainly meat-industry-related groups that are saying it.

First of all, when individuals who are merely associated with an organization commit crimes, proving that the organization itself is criminally responsible is an entirely different thing. PETA isn't necessarily guilty by association for the acts of individuals. Also, the links you provided show legal documents regarding one individual and, as I suspected, ALF -- the animal liberation front. The link between the individuals involved in the crimes and PETA, as well as the link between ALF and PETA doesn't appear to be a criminal one. I mean, if it was, as I said earlier, we would've seen some legal action by now. Right?

In other words, you simply can't conclude that PETA is a militant terrorist group from the evidence here. PETA is bat-shit crazy -- that's for sure.... and they do just fine making themselves look that way. However, by saying they're a "militant vegan group that calls for violence against humanity", you sound like a conspiracy-theory nut, and it actually raises more doubt on some of the allegations against PETA. So, maybe you should lighten up a bit on the "they are violent" and "they don't care about human life" stuff -- just a thought.

Another thing:
They might be true, but assuming the allegations of violence against humans you've referred to are false, you have no basis to say that "they devalue human life." Again, other than the allegations of violence against humans, why would you say that they devalue human life? Do you say that because they wanted to save dogs but not humans in the war? Well that's just stupid -- think about it: How about historical museum organizations trying to save paintings and art, etc. Are they also trying to save lives? No. Does that make them not care about human life? No. That just means they're trying to save art, not humans. That's their thing. There's nothing wrong with that. And saving dogs is PETA's thing. You can disagree, with both. You can say, "saving paintings is dumb, when humans are dying", but that doesn't make you right -- that's merely your opinion.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 3:08 PM. Reason : ]

2/12/2009 3:07:05 PM

Quote :

"Again, other than the allegations of violence against humans, why would you say that they devalue human life?"

The constant attempts to put animal suffering on equal footing with human suffering do precisely this, at least for people that don't think the two groups have equal standing.

2/12/2009 3:18:21 PM

From http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk

Quote :

"Humans have grown like a cancer. We're the biggest blight on the face of the earth. Washingtonian magazine, 1990 February 1 Reader's Digest, June, 1990"

Quote :

"“There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals.” — Washingtonian magazine, Aug 1986 "

Quote :

"Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses. The Washington Post, 1983 November 13"

The mere fact that they compare broiler chickens to holocaust victims is devaluing the life of the holocaust victims.

Quote :

"And saving dogs is PETA's thing."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/134549/

Quote :

"Since 1998 PETA has killed more than 17,000 animals, nearly 85 percent of all those it has rescued. "

I still wonder how their members can picket in front of pounds and animal control administrators' houses against euthanasia but not be out in front of PETA's headquarters doing the same.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2009 3:21:37 PM