http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480089,00.html

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"Outrage Follows Ruling That Teachers Can Have Sex With 18-Year-Old Students Thursday, January 15, 2009 By Joshua Rhett Miller A Washington court's ruling this week that teachers can legally have sex with their 18-year-old students is sparking outrage among parents, psychologists and sex therapists. A three-judge panel of the Washington Court of Appeals on Tuesday ordered the dismissal of a case brought against Matthew Hirschfelder, a former choir teacher at Hoquiam High School who was accused of having a sexual relationship with an 18-year-old student in 2006, when he was 33. Hirschfelder, who resigned in 2007, denied the relationship. But his lawyer challenged the charge against him, first-degree sexual misconduct with a minor, arguing that an 18-year-old is not a minor. The Court of Appeals heard the case after a lower-court judge refused to dismiss it. With Tuesday's ruling, the appeals court unanimously agreed that the state law banning sex between teachers and students is "ambiguous," because 18-year-old students are not legally minors. The appeals court reversed the lower court's ruling and ordered it to dismiss the charges. Prosecutors say they have not decided whether they will appeal the ruling to the state Supreme Court. "I'm shocked and surprised," Connie Severson told FOXNews.com. "They're going to be teaching our students and the last thing you want is sexual relations on their mind." Severson, whose son Stephan is a junior at Hoquiam High School, said the ruling has "opened up the eyes of other parents" in the district. "This shouldn't be OK," she said. "They are teachers. Every one of them should know better." Severson said the ruling could dissuade parents from enrolling their children within the Hoquiam school district. "I'm hoping from a parent's perspective that when my daughter is 18 and dating that she's not having a relationship with her teacher," she said. "This is not college, it's not a university, this is high school." Dr. Judy Kuriansky, a clinical psychologist and sex therapist, said the ruling sends a "very bad message" to students and teachers alike. "Normally I would respect what the courts have to say, but this is a highly inappropriate message and one that is potentially dangerous," Kuriansky told FOXNews.com. "This is where ethics come in conflict with the law." Kuriansky said the trauma that can be associated with such a relationship can last long after early adulthood. "It can be very traumatic and be buried and repressed in their minds, and then emerge 10, 20 or even 30 years later when there is some kind of trigger or similar experience," she said. "It has the potential to create tremendous tension and trauma." Dr. Yvonne K. Fulbright, an author and sex educator, said other potentially troubling scenarios could arise and become somewhat acceptable due to the ruling in Washington. One such scenario, she said, would be a female student who is vying for the attention of an older male teacher. Having a relationship with an older man could be seen as a status symbol, she said, but "It can certainly rob a person of their natural growing-up process and having first experiences with someone their age." Overall, Fulbright, who writes the SEXPert column on FOXNews.com., said young women who have sexual encounters with older men typically become sexually active sooner, which can lead to reproductive issues. Despite the court's ruling, Hoquiam High School Principal Mark VandenHazel said it's still not acceptable for teachers to engage in sexual conduct with 18-year-old students. "Regardless of whether it's a criminal act or not, you do this as a teacher and you're just not going to have a job," VandenHazel told FOXNews.com. "We have zero tolerance. If you want to continue teaching, don't even think about it." Rich Wood, spokesman for the Washington Education Association, echoed VandenHazel's comments. "A teacher who has an inappropriate relationship with a student is subject to losing their certificate and getting kicked out of the association," Wood told FOXNews.com. "It is grounds for never teaching again in this state — that's not affected by [the Hirschfelder ruling]." State legislators have already introduced a bill that would make it a felony for teachers to have a sexual relationship with a student who is between 16 and 21 years old. A conviction would carry a mandatory minimum of five years in prison. "The expectations of parents when they send their kids to school is that they get an education and not be groomed for some quid pro quo relationship that might occur," said Rep. Larry Haler, who introduced the bill Tuesday. "The message [the ruling] sends is one that basically says that there's really nothing wrong with this kind of behavior by school staff, or even on the part of students. "

I know, FauxNews, fuck you. I can't think it's a good idea to allow teachers to have sex with their students, no matter what the age. But, I do agree that it's bogus to charge the teacher w/ crimes involving a minor when the "victim" isn't actually a minor. Have fun

1/16/2009 7:58:25 AM

Looks like washington needs to tighten up their laws to be more specific. I did find this amusing:

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""I'm hoping from a parent's perspective that when my daughter is 18 and dating that she's not having a relationship with her teacher," she said. "This is not college, it's not a university, this is high school.""

So from this mother's perspective, when her daughter is graduating from high school, having sex with her teacher before she gets the diploma is a bad thing, but as soon as she's off to ECU, her professors are fair game.

1/16/2009 8:36:31 AM

professors and TAs in college have always been legally fair game.

maybe not so much for keeping your job, but that's another story...

1/16/2009 8:38:57 AM

This reminds me of a girl I went to high school with who got in trouble when she was in her early twenties for banging an 18 year old student who wasn't in any of her classes.

1/16/2009 9:08:05 AM

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"State legislators have already introduced a bill that would make it a felony for teachers to have a sexual relationship with a student who is between 16 and 21 years old. A conviction would carry a mandatory minimum of five years in prison."

Are you fucking serious? "Land of the free" my fucking ass.

1/16/2009 9:52:46 AM

land of the free.

unless we think its gross.

1/16/2009 9:53:40 AM

I love America.

1/16/2009 9:57:33 AM

A 21 year old girl took a golf lesson from me and I boned her down a few years back.

THROW ME IN FUCKING PRISON

1/16/2009 9:58:24 AM

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"State legislators have already introduced a bill that would make it a felony for teachers to have a sexual relationship with a student who is between 16 and 21 years old. A conviction would carry a mandatory minimum of five years in prison."

I do not think its ethical but making it a felony offense has always been rediculous in my opinion as it currently is in NC at least for high school. 16 is the age of legal consent here and 18 is an adult. Sure a 16 yr old high school girl can go find a 30 yr old to bwn if she wants. Due to the proximity of contact making this a felony for a teacher is fine. Once 18 though and a legal adult i always thought this law was overly harsh and not right.

For a consenting adult (18 sometimes 19/20) having sex with a h.s teacher imho the appropriate punishment would be to fire the guy and make sure he never teachers again. Since he is breaking the rules of his job fratenzing with students but by being an adult it shouldn't be illegal.

Does the 16-21 yr old thing apply to relationships btw professors and college students? At this point I think the legislation is absolutly absurd and crosses a boundary that should be no ones damn business. A young 25 yr old professor/lecturer would now be going to jail for 5 years for having a relationship with a student. Would this be retroactive? 25 yr old meets 20 yr old at party and the following semeseter the 20 yr old is in the class of the professor?

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""It can be very traumatic and be buried and repressed in their minds, and then emerge 10, 20 or even 30 years later when there is some "

lol gimme a break. if not the teacher mommies little angel would otherwise probably be screwing half the football team.

[Edited on January 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM. Reason : a]

1/16/2009 10:43:13 AM

I think this situation was handled properly. It should not be illegal to have sex with an 18-year old, and courts should certainly not interpret their way around the law to reach the findings that they want.

On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it.

1/16/2009 11:01:41 AM

Im waiting for one day some smartass 12 yr old to completely sue the crap out of all the restrictions in grade schools. Pretty much every amendment that applies to normal adults is thrown out in schools for the sake of them being "parent substitutions". Look at all the search and seizure bits, and random drug searches. How are those constitutional anywhere else? I bet you walk into any business and do that, you will get sued off your ass.

1/16/2009 11:24:09 AM

^ The Supreme Court has already wiped their ass with the 4th amendment. That lawsuit will go nowhere.

1/16/2009 11:25:38 AM

Quote :

"I think this situation was handled properly. It should not be illegal to have sex with an 18-year old, and courts should certainly not interpret their way around the law to reach the findings that they want. On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

1/16/2009 11:39:22 AM

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"State legislators have already introduced a bill that would make it a felony for teachers to have a sexual relationship with a student who is between 16 and 21 years old. A conviction would carry a mandatory minimum of five years in prison."

(You notice how they made it from 16 to 21, so that some of it seems legit?)
Complete bullshit. 100% unconstitutional. And I'm outraged at the implicit deception with the age range.

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"I can't think it's a good idea to allow teachers to have sex with their students, no matter what the age"

Allow? Allow? Allow two consenting adults to have sex? Excuse me?

Who the fuck thinks for a second that a law prohibiting consentual non-commercial adult sex would EVER stand up to a constitutional challenge? If the SCHOOLS THEMSELVES want to make rules that would have teachers FIRED for having LEGAL sex with an ADULT student, that's fine. But any of you that support the idea of making an actual law over this are fucking stupid and flat out wrong. Period.

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".....it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

Well put.

1/16/2009 11:42:08 AM

okay THANKS for clearing THAT up for US.

1/16/2009 11:45:57 AM

I agree with this ruling. By the wording of the law, nothing illegal was done.

I don't see why parents are freaking out though, because the school regulations still apply for getting a teacher dismissed and essentially blacklisted.

Plus, their kids are only 18 for typically much less than a year while in HS anyway.

1/16/2009 12:07:50 PM

Quote :

"I think this situation was handled properly. It should not be illegal to have sex with an 18-year old, and courts should certainly not interpret their way around the law to reach the findings that they want. On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

iawtp

1/16/2009 12:18:20 PM

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"On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

Exactly

Duke i'm sure Foot would support this :-)

Quote :

"Im waiting for one day some smartass 12 yr old to completely sue the crap out of all the restrictions in grade schools. Pretty much every amendment that applies to normal adults is thrown out in schools for the sake of them being "parent substitutions""

well 12-yr olds are not adults.

I forgot what it was called but there is some common law precedent that establishes that a parent sending their children to
public school consents to the school filling in the role as parent.

some parents just need to accept the fact their daughter is a SLUT

1/16/2009 12:20:04 PM

Quote :

"On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

1/16/2009 12:29:02 PM

Quote :

"I think this situation was handled properly. It should not be illegal to have sex with an 18-year old, and courts should certainly not interpret their way around the law to reach the findings that they want. On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

1/16/2009 12:40:43 PM

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"A young 25 yr old professor/lecturer would now be going to jail for 5 years for having a relationship with a student."

hahaha, if you're 25 years old and are the primary lecturer for a class at NCSU, you're doing pretty well in life.

Otherwise, they spend half of the TA workshops addressing this issue. This is entirely an internal issue and should have no bearing whatsoever on criminal law. If you're just any old 25 year-old macking on college students, then play ball.

1/16/2009 1:38:02 PM

^ i think its pretty common in CHASS where some lecturers only have a B.S.

1/16/2009 2:01:07 PM

25 is a reasonable age for a fresh PhD graduate, postdoc, or a lecturer with a masters.

1/16/2009 3:02:15 PM

Quote :

"I think this situation was handled properly. It should not be illegal to have sex with an 18-year old, and courts should certainly not interpret their way around the law to reach the findings that they want. On the other hand, while it shouldn't be criminal to have sex with a person above the age of consent, it's unprofessional for a teacher to be doing this with a student, and the school can and should fire teachers for it."

theDuke866

Exactly.

1/16/2009 6:36:33 PM

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"25 is a reasonable age for a fresh PhD graduate, postdoc"

1/16/2009 7:49:27 PM

^Meh. RedGuard's full of shit. I'd be pretty suspicious of any PhD work finished by the age of 25.


On the thread's topic...I never knew there was a law against sex with of-age students. It makes sense to me that teachers shouldn't sleep with students in the same way that doctors shouldn't sleep with patients. There's sort of a special bond between teacher and student. There are also grades involved...the teacher is naturally in the dominant position, you know. It's like you shouldn't have sex with your maid or your landlord...it's just not equal.

Regarding the law, I can actually see how someone might argue for a law against sex with stuents. I mean, it's already been mentioned in this thread that students have very few rights in the classroom because of some weird custodial relationship with the school. An 18 year-old isn't technically a minor, but when they enter the school, they all of the sudden lose a bunch of their rights...so, in the school, they are practically minors...and it should therefore be illegal to do it with them.

[Edited on January 16, 2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason : ]

1/16/2009 10:49:19 PM

Well, if they were actually fucking in the school I guess I could see your point, maybe.

While it's certainly unethical and grounds for termination, I don't think it should be illegal. It's certainly stupid as shit to extend the law to people over 18 (like they'd apparently like to do).

At some point you must say that there is an age at which you are an adult, you are capable of making informed decisions about things and this includes sex. As a society, we have done that and said that age is 18. I can think of no good reason to legally change that precedent simply because someone is a teacher. That relationship is certainly no more sacred than that of a doctor and a patient or a lawyer and a client and no one capable of logical reasoning would argue that it should be illegal for a 20 year old to have sex with her doctor. Ethically incorrect on the doctor's part, but deserving of jail time? I should say not!

1/16/2009 11:40:10 PM

^Yeah, but how do you reconcile my argument about 18 year-olds being technical minors since they have no rights in the school?

1/17/2009 4:45:31 PM

Eighteen-year-olds do have rights in high school.

They can walk out of class at anytime.

1/17/2009 6:37:20 PM

Quote :

"Eighteen-year-olds do have rights in high school. They can walk out of class at anytime."

1/17/2009 7:33:13 PM

some parents just need to accept the fact their daughter is a SLUT

1/17/2009 7:51:06 PM

^^^But as long as they're in school, they do not. So they are technical minors despite their of-age status.

1/17/2009 9:23:28 PM

No, they are not 'technical minors'. An eighteen-year-old can get up and walk out of class at any point.

If an eighteen-year-old is in school, it is because they choose to be there. They choose to be subject to the rules and limitations of school.

This is no different than restrictions employers place on employees.

[Edited on January 17, 2009 at 10:01 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2009 9:53:50 PM

^No, it is not the same as employers and employees.

The employer does not assume a custodial (supervisory) role when they bring you on. A school does.

Those two things are actually very different.

[Edited on January 17, 2009 at 11:20 PM. Reason : I'm just saying. A law against this would be easy to justify.]

1/17/2009 11:15:23 PM

we don't let therapists sleep with their clients

why should we let teachers sleep with theirs?

uh, i mean.... SEE YOU BITCHES IN WASHINGTON

1/18/2009 1:12:08 AM

^ For therapists, I thought sleeping with a client was a write up to a review board, and suspension of license, not a criminal charge?

1/18/2009 4:27:35 AM

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"The employer does not assume a custodial (supervisory) role when they bring you on. A school does."

I disagree with this. Your employer very much assumes responsibility for your well-being at work.

Regardless, we're digressing.

A law against consensual sex among adults is nothing more than feel-good law-making. If an adult teacher is having sex with an adult student, they should be fired and blacklisted with the NEA. This is no different than any other professional misconduct.

1/18/2009 11:44:12 AM

Leave it to Bridget to go against the flow and want to PC feel gooder policy to say

ZOMG think of the children dirty teachers hooking up with innocent sweet virgin 18 yr old girls; we need to send them to jail and lock away the key!!!!

Quote :

"If an adult teacher is having sex with an adult student, they should be fired and blacklisted with the NEA. This is no different than any other professional misconduct."

Exactly, people are to quick to blur the lines on whats unethical/unprofessional and what should be unlawful. Creating loopholes in the current age of consent and/or age of adult laws as far as sexual activity is concerned is setting a dangerous precedent in which the evangelical bible thumping right can pivot their anti-sex crusade against.

1/18/2009 12:12:37 PM

what

1/18/2009 3:06:52 PM

Thank

God


I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

1/18/2009 3:36:16 PM

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"^Meh. RedGuard's full of shit. I'd be pretty suspicious of any PhD work finished by the age of 25."

WTF?

Just because you are not smart enough does not mean you have to be jealous to such a degree (pun intended) as to doubt their work.

You know, 18 + 9 = 27.

So imagine you finish HS at 17, your BS at 20, and your PhD by 25. Thousands of people do it.

1/18/2009 3:41:04 PM

Also, it does not go unnoticed how...

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"PhD graduate, postdoc, or a lecturer with a masters."

The original wording carefully avoids saying "lecturer with a PhD". Most core classes take the PhD. I'd say the classes requiring a lower degree level is more likely to produce some teacher-student romantic relationship.

And TAs... yeah...

1/18/2009 8:47:31 PM

Quote :

"HUR: leave it to Bridget to go against the flow and want to PC feel gooder policy to say ZOMG think of the children dirty teachers hooking up with innocent sweet virgin 18 yr old girls; we need to send them to jail and lock away the key!!!!"

I'm definitely being contrary. Otherwise, it would just be a thread of everybody saying the same thing. And I thought it was crazy that people could discuss students' lack of rights in school and the issue of sex with teachers in the same thread and not put them together... Y'all lack curiosity.

Regarding your comment about the "innocent sweet virgins," I said no such thing. That kind of language only appeals to pervs anyway...so congrats on that.

^^I'm not jealous at all. You don't know me.

1/18/2009 10:52:15 PM

Quote :

"Meh. RedGuard's full of shit. I'd be pretty suspicious of any PhD work finished by the age of 25."

It is a reasonable age. Kid does finishes his undergrad at the age of 22 and goes straight into graduate school and wraps up his PhD in 3 years. Sure, a lot of people, I'd say a large majority of PhD's do not follow that pattern either because they started later (work, MA, etc.), took longer (I knew a guy who took 10 years), and varies by department and field but is a 25 year old wrapping up isn't an unreasonable path.

Other than that, I think BridgetSPK does make an interesting point with regards to technical minors. Are there specific legal powers that the university has when an undergrad comes in? If they do receive certain custodial rights under the law, then there is a good case for placing legal penalties. I want to hear more on the specifics.

1/19/2009 11:17:45 AM

Quote :

"Other than that, I think BridgetSPK does make an interesting point with regards to technical minors. Are there specific legal powers that the university has when an undergrad comes in? If they do receive certain custodial rights under the law, then there is a good case for placing legal penalties. I want to hear more on the specifics."

Oh, I'm sure the University would just love to have specific powers like this that put them above the law when dealing with their (18 and above) students. Let's hope our nation never gets that stupid.

1/19/2009 11:27:50 AM

^ u are right; since NCSU does do a good job at treating its underclassmen like minors.

What is even more shocking is that at UNCW on campus housing does not allow its residents to have guest past midnight during the week. I am glad adults are forced to have a curfew after which the security guard comes looking for your guests to kick them out.

1/19/2009 12:03:35 PM

i don't totally agree with ^that sort of rule. but i would assume the main point is more of a roommate thing, not a puritanical thing.

1/19/2009 12:43:52 PM

I guess I mean to ask whether there are real legal responsibilities and rights the university possesses when it comes to their undergrads. I'm not familiar with university life law, so I'm curious as to if there's anything on the books. If universities do have some real privileges under the legal code, then there should be some regulation as well.

1/19/2009 1:10:07 PM

Pretty soon all the frat guys will be upset b.c the university will make it illegal for upperclassmen to hook up with freshmen; b.c it will corrupt them and warp their sensitive little minds.

1/19/2009 1:34:47 PM

This is great news for lonely professors and desperate, underachieving students.

1/19/2009 2:09:24 PM