what a disappointment. It was an 370hp R/T with an automatic, but what a boat. It was easily the least fun LX I've driven. No feel to any of the controls, no visibility, no grip, no feedback. The '08 mustang bullitt I drove about 6 months ago felt like a 'vette by comparison, and the '03 z06 I drove last week might as well have been a goddamned mclaren. This was like trying to drive a car while inside a grandma suit with the car filled with jello. It was even a measureable effort to keep it in a straight line, the ride and roll motions were so dramatic. The only redeeming virtue of the drive was about 10 seconds of WOT. The Chrysler Hemis are right up there with the LS1/2/6 and bmw 3.0Lt6 as some of my favorite engines. But, ugh, even trying to draw a clean arc on a cloverleaf felt like a crown vic. I suppose, to be fair, I'll eventually go back and drive the srt8, or another R/T when the dealer around the corner has a manual with some sort of sport suspension. I remember really enjoying a magnum str8 about a year and a half ago, so maybe there's some hope yet, but I doubt it.

Anyone thinking "at least it's better than a mustang" really ought to go drive both. I've been unimpressed by a number of mustangs but this was far worse than any of them, and that includes comparison to a v8 automatic convertible.


sidenote in reference to another thread:
My fiance's '99 miata 5spd continues to be my benchmark for control feel/ feedback in general. Anyone who says a miata is a woman's car is basically so downgrading feel as part of what makes driving a fun car a satisfying experience is essentially making a snap judgment about cars that is roughly the equivalent of this statement about sex interlude preferences:

"hah, only a girly man would prefer to have passionate, wet, messy sex with an average looking chick that is really into him. Real men prefer to have a local anaesthetic applied to numb them from the waist down and then wear 5 condoms if it means they can nail jenna jameson all night long. Think of what that would look like to other guys too. That'd be impressive eh? to see that "holdoff-time" in bright lights on a scoreboard? the sounds she'd probably make and the faces she'd pose to the camera? "....

...really, who cares about statistics and appearances at the end of the day? This car obsession/ hobby that all of us in the garage share is about the fun of driving, and the endless chasing of horsepower has only condoned the production of more boring cars. My favorite test drive so far still belongs to an '07 mazda RX-8, followed closely by an '08 mini cooper S, '08 135i, and '07 miata prht.

Another power-isn't-everything realization was comparing the N/A solstice to a GXP. The N/A car is WAY more flexible around town, and much more satisfying for it. But both pale compared to a '99 miata for flinging around a parking lot.

1/14/2009 4:04:27 AM

Quote :

"a miata is a woman's car"

1/14/2009 7:30:14 AM

didnt care for the side note....

1/14/2009 8:04:41 AM

sigh

1/14/2009 9:41:44 AM

I want to kill all niggers

1/14/2009 9:46:01 AM

i, too, have driven cars.

1/14/2009 10:01:42 AM

My dad just bought a new Challenger. He got the RT with the auto, and while it is certainly not a track car, I really really like it. It's his commuter car to work, and while he drives like an asshole, he doesn't need anything that handles like its on rails. I wouldn't buy one expecting a race ready sports car, but for what it is I like it. It is comfy, and I think it is absolutely beautiful, especially with the 20's.

1/14/2009 10:58:14 AM

fuck it i like the way the v6s look.

1/14/2009 5:06:11 PM

The Solstice was one of the absolutely shittiest driving experiences I've ever had.

Ever.

And if a Miata is your benchmark for control feel/feedback, you better never test-drive a lotus.

1/14/2009 8:26:31 PM

^The Elise was a hell of a driving car, and I wasn't even close to pushing the limits to one... I think i'll stick with my 944 tho.. It's been a very forgiving car the 2 or 3 times I've taken it over the limit I've heard stories about taking a Lotus past the limit...

On another note, it's one thing to set a car as a "benchmark." But you can't expect to drive one vehicle the same way as you would others. Some vehicles may drive better if you change your driving habits, which would make the issue more with the driver than the car itself. The dynamics to each vehicle is different and should be treated as such. You've got adjust and I think some people forget to keep an open mind when driving a vehicle. Comparing a mid/full size car to a compact isn't fair and you'll be hard pressed to find a vehicle that will do everything you'd expect without drawbacks.

1/14/2009 8:50:43 PM

but is it worse than a 'Maro????

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:14 AM. Reason : all those pony/muscle cars have mediocre to shitty handling, it's expected]

1/15/2009 1:13:43 AM

yeah, it's about that fat ass HEMI belting out a mean growl

AMIRITE????

1/15/2009 8:14:05 AM

ohmigoodness Noen, do you know someone who could let me drive their lotus after every time I drive a new car and I want to be sure of my opinions afterward by checking them against something, you know, sort of like a control, or... what's the word... as a <i>benchmark?</i> I heard you own an exige. Well then I guess you won't mind if I just pop over there and give it hell after every time I go drive a musclecar you wouldn't be caught dead in!
jk

What makes a good control is something that, for the measured criteria, is what you consider optimal for that criteria, which I said above, is control feel. NOT quantity of information or ability to take punishment without failure or any of these other measures that lotus clearly beats the miata in.. such as, namely, performance. The miata doesn't have to be the holistic BEST of the BEST of the most hardcore of roadgoing minimalist sports cars for me to find it a great measure of driving satisfaction. A good benchmark is also something you can constantly check against, not just try to maintain an objective impression of which one's senses wander with observation of alternatives for long periods of time between recalibrations. Another good quality for a benchmark is for it to be fair, or some objectively reasonable level of expectation of a new quantity to be held up against. A lotus is hand-assembled aluminum extrusions bonded to one another for the ultimate in weight savings. There are a few exotic automobiles that also share this construction. The miata, like pretty much every other mainstream automobile, is stamped and spot-welded steel pressings. It has a longitudinal drivetrain with the transmission conventionally located right behind it. The drivetrain therefore resembles a lot more vehicles I'm likely to drive than the lotus. The miata also makes some concessions to habitability that the lotus refuses to waiver upon. The lotus, because of its lack of sound insulation and aluminum construction and lack of carpets, when driven on the highway, sounds like someone pouring pebbles into a bucket. The miata weighs about 400 lbs more, and yet it manages to not have this annoyance, and that's a pretty uniform expectation of mainstream automobiles. The miata also uses fairly high-profile ordinary tires. It certainly doesn't have the lotus' particularly-specified Avon exotica.

and for the record, though I'm sure you'll disagree, while I'd still say the Lotus' stock shifter is great, and I would never complain about it if I owned an elise, compared to a miata, it's notchy and longish in throw with a lot of play in gear.

Also, I still only consider the elise's steering third in my book for feel. I put the rx8 first, then the previous generation miata ahead of it in that regard. The only reason why I refuse to hold other cars up against the rx8 is that, like the lotus, it's a car that possesses a significant design deviation that other vehicles I'm likely to drive are disproportionately disadvantaged against. The lotus' is its construction and size. The Rx8's is its tiny rotary engine.

For another thing... I seem to also recall that the clutch travel is pretty freakin long in the elise! Oh sure, it has a pretty smooth engagement and length of travel from full engagement to complete disengagement, but moving one's leg the length required for the full travel required some interesting footwork for me to keep from banging my knee into the fixed steering wheel and column.

I will say this though. the Elise was an absolute revelation for maintaining high speeds through significant turns without any sort of drama (as long as you didn't lift until you were in a straight line... ).

As for your comments about the solstice, you'll get no argument from me. They both sucked. But I didn't express approval nor disapproval in my post. I just said the n/a car was better in normal driving. I could just have easily made the same assertion about comparing fedex and ups delivery trucks without having said anything about whether either was enjoyable. since you bring it up, I, too, was very disappointed with the solstices (solsti?).

like shimorri pointed out... maybe I shouldn't expect to hold other vehicles (in respect to feel) against the miata because it's unfair. However, I'm not convinced by that argument in the particular case of comparing a challenger's feel against what I consider satisfying (as measured in the miata) because I feel that the challenger fails to compare favorably because it was compromised, not because the miata was unfairly advantaged. Now, that's not to say that I go around poo-poo-ing every vehicle for it failing to be a miata, because I DO adjust my expectations. For example, while I don't consider the pontiac g8 to be anywhere near as communicative as a miata, I do look to its relative variance from the impression gained from the miata as something to hold the challenger to. And the g8 gt, at least compared with the r/t that I drove, was dramatically more satisfying, because it approached my general benchmark for near-as-dammit-perfect, at least in regard for feel, by a significant margin, more than the challenger.

addressing arghx... I'm pretty sure the camaro is going to stomp all over the challenger. If it drives anything like the g8... but is cheaper, sexier (although that's objective, I currently think a greater fraction of the ponycar-buying public will feel that way), more powerful... than the challenger, then it's basically a landslide before even reaching such subtleties as steering feel.

Hurley... yes. It's about the growl. That IS the appeal of the challenger. But you can get the growl in a used magnum too. And haul your life. And drive around without being subjected to constant stoplight grands prix. I didn't even drive the challenger the entire test drive before the w-s yokels were lining up in beat up toyota pickups to race across an intersection, whether to be funny or not!

1/17/2009 12:04:03 AM

Quote :

"And if a Miata is your benchmark for control feel/feedback, you better never test-drive a lotus."

not really a fair statement


the miata is a benchmark plenty of people use for cars


especially since a lotus is a street-legal race car


comparing a miata to a lotus is like comparing a tricycle to a ducati

1/17/2009 3:21:30 PM

Quote :

"This car obsession/ hobby that all of us in the garage share is about the fun of driving, and the endless chasing of horsepower has only condoned the production of more boring cars. My favorite test drive so far still belongs to an '07 mazda RX-8, followed closely by an '08 mini cooper S, '08 135i, and '07 miata prht."

You would like the s2000.

1/17/2009 3:26:07 PM

You guys have some silly interpretations of what a benchmark is.

A benchmark vehicle is one that represents the BEST of it's class. I will grant you that it's much easier to find a Miata to throw around so you can get a feeling for it, but if you get a single session in a Lotus at an HPDE event, you don't need to drive it again to remember the feeling.

It's like saying a corvette is the benchmark for acceleration. Sure it's fast and available, but it's nowhere close to the best for acceleration.

I'm not taking away from the Miata at all. I would own one in a heartbeat if I could physically get behind the wheel.

1/17/2009 4:26:42 PM

Well, the miata is the benchmark for its class.


A Lotus and a Miata aren't in the same class, yo

1/17/2009 5:59:13 PM

^^
Noen, I'm not saying a miata is a better car than a Lotus:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/benchmark

Quote :

"benchmark Also found in: Medical, Financial, Acronyms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia 0.04 sec. bench·mark (bnchmärk) n. 1. A standard by which something can be measured or judged: "Inflation . . . is a great distorter of seemingly fixed economic ideas and benchmarks" Benjamin M. Friedman. See Synonyms at standard. 2. often bench mark A surveyor's mark made on a stationary object of previously determined position and elevation and used as a reference point in tidal observations and surveys. tr.v. bench·marked, bench·mark·ing, bench·marks To measure (a rival's product) according to specified standards in order to compare it with and improve one's own product. [From the use of the mark as a place to insert an angle iron that serves as a support for a leveling rod.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. benchmark Noun 1. a mark on a fixed object, used as a reference point in surveying 2. a criterion by which to measure something: the speech was a benchmark of his commitment Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006 ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms Noun 1. benchmark - a standard by which something can be measured or judged; "his painting sets the benchmark of quality" criterion, standard, touchstone, measure - a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work" 2. benchmark - a surveyor's mark on a permanent object of predetermined position and elevation used as a reference point bench mark point of reference, reference point, reference - an indicator that orients you generally; "it is used as a reference for comparing the heating and the electrical energy involved" Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc. benchmark noun reference point, gauge, yardstick, measure, level, example, standard, model, reference, par, criterion, norm, touchstone Collins Essential Thesaurus 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2005, 2006"

Also, I think that the way that an alternative definition, the software-specific use of the word benchmark is instructive as to how I am interpreting that word as it relates to vehicle performance in narrow categories and frequency of comparison and how ubiquitous/ available it is for comparison:

Quote :

" benchmark Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Medical, Financial, Acronyms, Wikipedia 0.12 sec. A performance test of hardware and/or software. There are various programs that very accurately test the raw power of a single machine, the interaction in a single client/server system (one server/multiple clients) and the transactions per second in a transaction processing system. However, it is next to impossible to benchmark the performance of an entire enterprise network with a great degree of accuracy. Benchmarks may change their rating scale with new releases of the software. Thus, the same version of the test must often be run to compare results. See PC Magazine benchmarks, BAPCo, ECperf, Linpack, Dhrystones, Whetstones, Khornerstones, SPEC, GPC and RAMP-C. Computer Desktop Encyclopedia copyright ©1981-2009 by The Computer Language Company Inc. All Right reserved. THIS DEFINITION IS FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. All other reproduction is strictly prohibited without permission from the publisher. (benchmark) benchmark - A standard program or set of programs which can be run on different computers to give an inaccurate measure of their performance. "In the computer industry, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and benchmarks." A benchmark may attempt to indicate the overall power of a system by including a "typical" mixture of programs or it may attempt to measure more specific aspects of performance, like graphics, I/O or computation (integer or floating-point). Others measure specific tasks like rendering polygons, reading and writing files or performing operations on matrices. The most useful kind of benchmark is one which is tailored to a user's own typical tasks. While no one benchmark can fully characterise overall system performance, the results of a variety of realistic benchmarks can give valuable insight into expected real performance. Benchmarks should be carefully interpreted, you should know exactly which benchmark was run (name, version); exactly what configuration was it run on (CPU, memory, compiler options, single user/multi-user, peripherals, network); how does the benchmark relate to your workload? Well-known benchmarks include Whetstone, Dhrystone, Rhealstone (see h), the Gabriel benchmarks for Lisp, the SPECmark suite, and LINPACK. See also machoflops, MIPS, smoke and mirrors. Usenet newsgroup: news:comp.benchmarks. Tennessee BenchWeb. "

1/19/2009 1:11:56 PM

that depends on what your definition of is is

1/19/2009 5:09:58 PM

Quote :

"sigh"

1/19/2009 8:50:22 PM

i was pretty sure the OP was a moron before, but this thread locks it up. YOU ARE NOT AN EDITOR FOR CAR AND DRIVER DUDE (AND FOR GOOD REASON I MIGHT ADD). GTFO.

if you're going to write all these *words*, at least judge the cars accordingly. a challenger is not a fucking sports car, or meant to be at all. i mean really, we're supposed to take a guy who bought a bunch of old parts off ebay to build his own "supercar" and thinks the lincoln ls is an awesome vehicle seriously? lol.


[Edited on January 19, 2009 at 11:40 PM. Reason : lol]

1/19/2009 11:37:18 PM

^thanks for your feedback! Your opinion is valuable to me.

Gosh, you sure told me a lot!

tell me if I got it all:

-You believe i'm a 'moron.'

Oh boy. More tough words. lemme go look that one up. Thank goodness for the internet. Without it, we'd all sound pretty stupid throwing around words and meaning something else!:

Quote :

"A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."

Ho- lee- shee- -eet! If you're right, ......and I'm sure you are .....because you said so, then...I'm in a real pickle. I was awarded a couple of academic honors in the past, including a mechanical engineering degree, magna cum laude, no less! If I'm a 'moron,' then it must have been by some horrible, horrible clerical error! My goodness, from what it says here on the internet, I am a HUGE threat to society. These mechanical engineers are expected to make all sorts of equipment that has to be correct or people can be hurt! What an ethical dilemma. I can either just let it go and wait for my idiocy to harm a client or employer in the future employer's profits or maybe even someone I love. Oh why must I know now that I am a 'moron!' Now I am made aware of my wretched burden, BigBlueRam! Innocence lost! Woe is me.

I cannot wait for my stupid hands to harm an innocent. I'll call them in the morning and tell them that they better take back my degree! There was also a sweet old lady I saw today who told me I was such a smart young man... I'll have to track her down, get in her face, and tell that reckless old bitch that that she's dead wrong and ought to shut her fucking mouth from telling such lies, because BigBlueRam says otherwise, and he's a source for unquestionable truth!

-I am not an editor for car and driver. Whew. That is truly a relief. Thanks for telling me. I hear that's a tough job that doesn't pay very well. Those rumors make sense, I guess. I mean, those people have to generate honest and accurate impressions of dozens of machines constantly and then having to attempt to focus on all of the independent aspects and keep them all straight until you can get to writing it, only to pour your heart out, All followed up by someone else picking it apart and then other people writing in to tell you you're an idiot for disagreeing with them. Man, I am sooooo glad I am not one of those guys. That run-around...whether you get paid for it poorly or not at all... would really suck. I dodged a bullet, eh?

-you have a "pretty good" reason to believe that [I'm not an editor for car and driver]. Well whatever it is, you don't have to be modest, I'm sure you can rest easy in the certainty that your "pretty good" reason is actually at least a is a fully "good" one, because I found some entries on my bank account statement reflecting transactions with a "car and driver" but, get this, I sent them money, and not the other way around! If I am an editor, I better go get that straightened out, right?! I mean, if I'm an editor, I gotta have some kinda pull over there!

-Your caps lock is sticky. I had that problem once with that key and with a keyboard in general. You can spread out some saran wrap over the keyboard when you visit those other "personal" sites, and no matter where things get spilled, you can just peel off the wrap and throw it away so there's no mess or collateral damage to your keyboard's function. You can wait to thank me for that little tip once you've done it and seen that it works! no rush! Read the rest of my post or else you might forget to come back and later think I didn't appreciate other parts of your message that were in fact valuable to me!

-you want me to "GTFO"... I had to look this one up. I guess you want me to "get the (naughty word censored) out". I also learned that that often means, when used in a forum, that you wish me to stop posting. I was very upset to learn that you felt that way, but fortunately, I saw that you are not a moderator, which is apparently a person who attempts to maintain the order in a forum from disrupting or inappropriate posts/posting parties. I'm learning so much today! I very nearly quit going to a website that I like because I didn't understand! silly me. Well, I thank you very much for your invitation, but I'm just going to have to decline. I just love posting too much! Wouldn't you know it, I have some shit to shoot about cars and not just the people posting, and it turns out that the "garage" section, where I posted, is just the place for that! yay!

-you don't want me to compare a 4000 lb two door vehicle with a 2000 lb two door vehicle. Well, that seems fair enough to me. Doubling the weight of a car may have an effect on a lot of attributes, don't you think. Oh wouldn't you know it, I just looked up above, and it seems I anticipated a few readers having a problem with that comparison. I've copied it below so you don't have to go find it. What a waste of time that would be, right? Reading text on a forum thread where people are invited to type out text for other people to read and consider? What a drag. Who wants to do that? Anyway, here you go.

Quote :

" ike shimorri pointed out... maybe I shouldn't expect to hold other vehicles (in respect to feel) against the miata because it's unfair. However, I'm not convinced by that argument in the particular case of comparing a challenger's feel against what I consider satisfying (as measured in the miata) because I feel that the challenger fails to compare favorably because it was compromised, not because the miata was unfairly advantaged. Now, that's not to say that I go around poo-poo-ing every vehicle for it failing to be a miata, because I DO adjust my expectations. For example, while I don't consider the pontiac g8 to be anywhere near as communicative as a miata, I do look to its relative variance from the impression gained from the miata as something to hold the challenger to. And the g8 gt, at least compared with the r/t that I drove, was dramatically more satisfying, because it approached my general benchmark for near-as-dammit-perfect, at least in regard for feel, by a significant margin, more than the challenger. "

Seriously, we should go get a beer next time I'm in Raleigh. On me.

1/20/2009 3:48:02 AM

i've had some long posts in my time, but i'm not even about to read all that. based on reasons listed in my prior post, i'm positive it would be a waste of time.

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 7:21 AM. Reason : awww, i can't has beerz too?]

1/20/2009 7:21:02 AM

heaven forbid someone answer your blather with a full answer and then it be too long for you to read


[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason : .]

1/20/2009 12:29:11 PM

BBR's pretty straight up with cars.

Unless it's a turbo'd challenger that has had 500+ pounds shed, 100words is more than enough, OP.

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 12:31 PM. Reason : -]

ORIGINAL POSTER/COME ON DUDE THIS IS TWW

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason : --]

1/20/2009 12:31:15 PM

sorry, I apparently correctly assumed that "the OP" meant that, but when you just said, "op"... It reminded me of that other user "OEPII" who also usually has his threads ripped up by people who think their words detracting a long but carefully worded post only to turn them into personal attacks. I mean, honestly, which is worse... an honest and explicit statement or some over-abbreviated and idiotic post that leaves implied meaning in vagaries to be wondered about by other users when the original poster could have just been more explicit?

1/20/2009 12:48:11 PM

I'm sick of this troll bullshit. Look, we'd all just be nicer to one another if we knew one another. BigBlueRam, you're being a dick. You are either actually a dick or you just aren't respecting me because you don't know my face. I don't want to hate on anyone. Next time we're in town, let's get a beer or two, ok? My favorite spot is Jax. Worst thing that happens is that you have something else to tease me about.

1/20/2009 1:00:48 PM

i just call things the way i see/read them, don't get your panties in a wad. it has nothing to do with me knowing you or not. yes, dick, asshole, smart ass, etc. are all words i'm very familiar with being called. in person you might at least get it with a laugh or smile though, but i'm usually just as blunt/honest.

1/21/2009 6:32:53 PM

Never seen such epic pwnage. gg, danmangt40

1/21/2009 7:27:58 PM

For the record

Miata and Lotus wouldn't really be in the same 'class'

'class' includes price.

1/22/2009 12:52:08 PM

Quote :

"aren't respecting me because you don't know my face"

what the hell does that even mean? lol

and bbr is right, sorry dude.

1/22/2009 1:08:04 PM

knowing someone's face is country speak for having met someone in person and being acclimated to their personality, fwiw.

1/22/2009 1:17:13 PM