I have a 4 y/o black lab mix with what i believe to be food allergies. She does well on [link]http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1083&cat=all" target="blank">dick van pattens duck and potato but I'm thinking about switching it up to another duck and potato or a fish and potato. i want to keep it grain-free and boost the protein content. I'm also interested in supplementing her kibble with some raw/wet food too.

Brands I'm interested in so far are:

Wellness: http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?id=1326
Orijen: http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/ORIJEN6fish.aspx


Some general links for research if you want more info:
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/ (search for the food you use)
http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html
http://www.pets.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=53 check out the stickies here
http://www.dogforum.org/showthread.php?t=8065

3/3/2008 4:56:47 PM

The day I feed my dog duck is the day I get a cat

3/3/2008 5:01:14 PM

http://www.nutroproducts.com/ncdry-pcro.shtml

and half a cup of goat milk and maybe 2 treats a day

3/3/2008 5:02:47 PM

Quote :

"The day I feed my dog duck is the day I get a cat"

3/3/2008 5:08:25 PM

be careful when implementing raw food into the diet
I'd suggest talking to your vet before making any major diet changes.

and with any change - do it very GRADUALLY


2 of my dogs have sensitive stomachs so I feed them all "Proplan - sensitive skin and stomach".
They've been on it for most of their lives and do great on it. It's also excellent for their coat, which is perfect for my Shar Pei. The number one ingredient is fish (salmon).

3/3/2008 5:42:56 PM

I feed Solid Gold, and there's a special grain free food from them called Barking at the Moon.


Very good - holistic food.

3/3/2008 7:34:47 PM

my dogs get generic dry dog food and table scraps. a lot of times we just mix the dog and cat food together and they don't seem to notice the difference. they are very sleek and healthy. a few months ago, though a lady drove 2.5 hrs to our farm to buy about 50 young roosters from me to make dog treats out of for dogs with allergies. she didn't want to haul them live, so I killed them for her and she packed them on ice. she said she had a large demand for the treats.

3/3/2008 8:35:25 PM

Also look into Innova EVO, another grain free option.

3/3/2008 9:23:04 PM

yeah that looks like top quality stuff, but i was hoping to stay away from poultry and keep her on duck or fish as the protein source.

3/3/2008 11:38:09 PM

Yeah, that would eliminate EVO then.

If you are interested in raw, there's a yahoo group called triangleraw that has info on sources of meat, group buys, sales and stuff.

3/3/2008 11:56:24 PM

my dog eats eukanuba lamb and rice weight control, due to fatty deposits on the cornea, believed to be caused by an excess of chicken fat in the diet

3/3/2008 11:57:04 PM

i had a dog that ate walmart brand dog food (ol roy) and table scraps for 17 years (she was just under 50lbs, so not a tiny dog)...she did great until the last few months

the current dog i have now is probably in the same boat as yours...i think she has food allergies to something (though she was getting hill's science diet puppy since i got a MAJOR discount on it)...i switched to the sensitive skin formula and started giving her omega-3/6 supplements every day, as well as giving her a bath once a week in an anti-dandruff shampoo (obviously, she had skin reactions to the allergy)

been on this plan for several months (after a week long string of antibiotics) and she seems to be doing MUCH better (she used to gnaw incessantly on her forelegs, as well as any other place she could reach)

3/4/2008 4:26:33 PM

I'm trying to switch my cats over to raw. I used to feed Science Diet and wasn't really satisfied with it even before I realized all the great health benefits of raw.

For anyone that has experience with raw, I'm feeding a pre-made diet. Both cats are supposed to eat 4-6 medallions a day (they're about an 1.5 inches across). Since I've just started, I'm mixing one medallion a.m. and p.m with a half a handful of dry food. My male cat LOVES the stuff, but my female just picks at it. The problem is, even while loving the food he NEVER finishes the entire medallion and doesn't polish off much of the dry food. I'm not even sure my other cat is eating period, but she doesn't seem to be showing anorexic symptoms.

Should I switch cold turkey and leave them with no other option but to eat the new food? They have pretty hearty digestive tracts and don't typically have a problem when I change foods, I don't usually ration it out slowly when I do. Any suggestions?

I realize there is a learning curve for coming off crappy dry food and going to raw, even going to wet food...I'm just trying to be cautious since I'm sure it takes different enzymes and microbes to digest raw chicken vs. processed stuff. Anyone have experience with this kind of situation?

If you feed raw, what have you been feeding?

3/4/2008 6:13:30 PM

Talk to your vet about what to feed your pet.
period.
/thread.

I feed my dog a lamb and rice DRY food. Wet food is not good for dogs or cats, it ruins their teeth as well as can cause nasty diarrhea. It's useful when your pet is sick and needs to eat something or if your pet is very old and can't handle the dry food, but otherwise STICK WITH DRY FOOD.

As for the raw thing, my personal opinion is that it is an idiotic thing to do unless you have a degree in nutrition and know what the fuck you're doing.



[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason : i should be more constructive i suppose ]

3/4/2008 11:00:40 PM

Quote :

"Talk to your vet about what to feed your pet. period. /thread."

Fail.

Most vets will tell you what the science diet rep told them.

3/4/2008 11:05:30 PM

if the dog has allergies, they would know what to reccomend.

jackass.

3/4/2008 11:06:54 PM

Quote :

"/thread"

what are you like 80?

should you trust that your doctor knows 100% about whatever health concern pops up?
should you trust that your car salesman will tell you 100% what u need to know when buying a car?
should you trust that your insurance rep will tell you 100% what u need to know when buying insurance?

Quote :

"Fail. Most vets will tell you what the science diet rep told them."

exactly. they will push whatever brand they are sponsored by. there is more than 1 brand of dog food, hence this thread

Quote :

"if the dog has allergies, they would know what to reccomend."

i would trust the collective input of 50 people over that of one person when it comes to what i want to feed my dog. if you aren't going to be one of those 50 people i suggest you hit the back button

3/4/2008 11:07:33 PM

do you have a degree in animal science or related field?
have you even confirmed it to BE food allergies instead of just guessing?
There is nothing wrong with asking a vet for their opinion, you don't have to DO what they say.


... you would trust the collective input of 50 people over a veterinarian.... wow.
okay then.

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 11:12 PM. Reason : .]

if you would have read my edit, you would have seen that i told you what i feed my dog and i also gave you my input.

[Edited on March 4, 2008 at 11:14 PM. Reason : edit edit edit war]

3/4/2008 11:10:04 PM

Quote :

"... you would trust the collective input of 50 people over a veterinarian.... wow. okay then."

yes. if 10 dog owners said their allergy sensitive dog did great on a certain brand, and i checked the ingredients etc and everything looked good, then i would for sure try that food first over whatever food my vet pushes based on kickbacks (unless of course that food came highly recommended too then i would consider it)

this is basically another instance of "are you going to be a dumb passive consumer or are you going to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions?"

3/4/2008 11:14:11 PM

I feed my dog Purina One large breed formula. Never had any issue with it.

Just as an FYI, I would not recommend Iams for puppies, it has a higher sodium content than most, meaning your puppy drinks more and pees more. I discovered this when house training Dimitri and I asked the vet why he was pissing so much. It was because of the Iams. I switched him over to Purina One puppy and never had the problem again.

3/4/2008 11:19:25 PM

Quote :

"this is basically another instance of "are you going to be a dumb passive consumer or are you going to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions?" "

something tells me you've never taken an animal nutrition course or done any sort of actual research besides webrings, google searches, message boards, and asking other people's opinions.

Opinions do NOT equal fact.

I'm hardly a "dumb passive consumer."

TALK to a vet, any vet, SOMEONE qualified enough to find out WHAT your dog might be allergic to instead of just asking people. Asking people is good if you want to get a general idea, but you could end up doing more harm than good by implementing what other people say. I'm sure those you have talked to have the best of intentions but may not necessarily know what the fuck they are talking about.

3/4/2008 11:31:57 PM

^got her degree in animal science...I think the words of one qualified person is better than 10 people who are clueless...

3/4/2008 11:42:43 PM

Quote :

"TALK to a vet, any vet, SOMEONE qualified enough to find out WHAT your dog might be allergic to instead of just asking people. "

sure, i could spend the $300-$400 on the tests, find out exactly what she's allergic to, then follow the natural progression to giving my dog regular shots (my vet explained there wasn't much to be gained from the tests unless you were willing to do the shots). but shes doing GREAT on food trials currently, so why go down that road if current efforts are going so well? And I'm not asking people what my dog is allergic to (as you're suggesting), I'm asking what food they feed their pets.

Quote :

"Opinions do NOT equal fact."

who said they did? i'm saying i would trust a fairly scientific examination of the pros and cons of a kibble's ingredients list (aka facts) + recommendations from people who fed that kibble to their allergic dogs over what one single vet recommends (again often based on kickbacks) every day.

look i'm going to guess from this:

Quote :

"Major : Animal Science/English"

that you're somehow involved in the professional delivery of health services to animals. no need to get so defensive, my dog goes to the vet regularly. i just think we have progressed from having the rely on one person to make every decision for us. if you think i'm wrong then tell me whats wrong with what i've learned from my research so far...tell me whats wrong with both of these products:

http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?id=1326
http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/ORIJEN6fish.aspx

Quote :

"I think the words of one qualified person is better than 10 people who are clueless..."

Well sure, I would probably weight it differently, if that one qualified person told me something other than "only trust what your vet says." If that one qualified person had a history of owning animals with food allergies (like the 10 other people i'm referring to...far from clueless) then sure, i would apply more weight to their input

3/4/2008 11:43:35 PM

okay now we are getting somewhere.
I don't like to argue and i wasn't trying to attack you.

I think it's GOOD to do research and not just blindly follow what someone tells you.
There is nothing wrong with the food you linked to.

All I am stressing is just get as many facts as you can before implementing anything.
You can always refuse vet tests and just go for more of a consultation than an actual allergy test.
Talk to vet students too, they are a good resource for information.
burlap70 is a good friend of mine if you want to shoot him a PM, I'm sure he would be glad to help you. I also don't know what his particular thoughts are on the issue so i dont feel like i'm being biased by suggesting him.
Professors are also a good resource, look up some animal science professors and see what they might have to say or if they might have any experiences to share.

I understand your concern about vets pushing particular brands and products, i've worked in them for years. I know when i take my pets to the vet what things are necessary and what things are just marketing bullshit. but they may have some information you haven't come across yet or other things to consider.

good luck and i hope you find something that works for you and your doggie

3/5/2008 12:14:49 AM

The truth of the matter is people are used to feeding kibble; it's easy, usually cheap and seems to do the job. But dry diets in order to be dry must have a high concentration of grains and carbohydrates which is not something the wild ancestors of our domesticated dogs and cats typically consume in high quantities.

Every MONTH Science diet, Purina and Innova dish out free food here at Iowa. We're talking huge bags! For the next 3 1/2 years I will never have to set foot in a pet store and buy pet food. Most certainly the idea is that those freebies will stick with vet students later in their career, and those big companies will see kickbacks.

You might also be surprised to know that nutrition is NOT a course taught in the mainstream collection of classes offered to vet students, as an elective maybe. And if a seminar is offered guess who's sponsoring it...yup, Purina, Science Diet etc. Veterinary students are given the tools to draw conclusions about diet but I'd venture to say the extent of most veterinarians knowledge in comparing food to food is that Ol'Roy=BAD, Purina, SD, Iams=NOT BAD.

If your lab's got allergies, I think you're on the right track. The first differential for allergies, if it's not pest related, is food. Protein can be one source and carbs another. If what you're doing works, then don't deviate!

Concerning raw food; you're right it's idiotic if you don't know what you're doing. But I think most people that are at a point where they are ready to switch have done their research. It's my opinion that you Troop haven't.

I don't have dogs and so most of my research has been concerning cats. Obviously cats aren't vegetarians, they are true carnivores. So why are most feline diets chocked full of carbs, nearly 50% of most diets?! There have been increases in diabetes, cystitis, kidney failure, obesity and *gasp* dental disease in cats. And the common denominator is food. Cats' primary energy source should be almost entirely from protein.

Kibble has to be palatable, and part of being palatable is being easy to chew leaving dry food without as much abrasiveness as you'd think. I know this is less true with dogs but cats rarely chew their food, they usually swallow it whole leaving no dental advantage. Similarly, the function of cats and dogs teeth are to shred, shear and crush material; the grinding it takes to mechanically breakdown dry food leaves small bits between teeth where they ferment into sugars contributing to bad breath and tarter build-up.

The decrease in carbs (bad sugars), increase in bone and the enzymes in the meat itself act as a natural toothbrush for animals. Wild animals don't typically have a problem with periodontal disease and don't have to rush to their local vet for a dental at 3-4 years of age.

Concerning diarrhea, it's actually been shown that feeding a raw diet leaves more in the GI tract to be absorbed. There's next to no filler like in kibble and so there is maximal nutrient aquiring going on. Pets on raw diets have less smelly feces, and it degrades faster than the more oily, carb filled poops of dry diet fed dogs.

Sorry for the long response, but I had to dispel the trash spewing.

3/5/2008 1:13:26 AM

goat milk, shredded cheese, 1.5 cups of that one shit, and 1 doggie treat

3/5/2008 1:37:53 AM

Quote :

"Wet food is not good for dogs or cats, it ruins their teeth as well as can cause nasty diarrhea"

I agree w/ ^^. That wet food is not good for cats is a load of crap. My cat kept getting UTI's, and all the vet did was charge me money for xrays and recommend an ultrasound.... She didn't see any bladder stones, but saw what might have been kidney stones-- so if I got the ultrasound to look for smaller bladder stones, it would cost about $600, and then if they did find them, they'd have to be surgically removed = more $$. They couldnt do anything about the kidney stones.

Through all this she never suggested having my cat eat wet food, though when I looked it up, all research points to dry food being the culprit for UTI's-- he wasn't drinking enough with his dry food to help flush his kidneys and bladder. I also learned that I can feel his bladder for myself to make sure he's peeing regularly, because a bladder stone can block the urethra and cause lots and lots of problems.

I'm starting to hate my vet now, and I need to find a new one because now I think my other cat has a sensitive stomach or something-- his poop has been overly wet and smelly and has blood in it It's worrisome, but I'm so tired of throwing my money away



And Seachel-- Where are you getting those medallions? I may want to look into doing that for my cats if its not too expensive.

[Edited on March 5, 2008 at 8:45 AM. Reason : sdf]

3/5/2008 8:44:27 AM

Purina One Healthy Weight bitches...

3/5/2008 8:58:31 AM

I get it at a mom and pop pet feed store in Ames. It's called Nature's Variety: a taste of raw. It's formulated for both cats and dogs. I bought a bag of 16 medallions to start off with and it cost me $4.99. I have a 17lb cat and a 8lb cat and they should each get between 5-8 medallions a day. Which at this point is not happening, because we're just starting out. Right now I'm mixing both the raw and their old dry together.

I feed the chicken diet, and was told to stick to protein sources cats would usually eat in the wild like chicken (small birds) and rabbit. Try to stay away from beef for cats.

Before you buy it though, I'd recommend doing a little bit of research, you'll get some really interesting information! It will surprise you. Google-Raw diet+cats+pros and cons. Also searching for Lisa A. Pierson, and Dr. Billingshurst (two vets that promote the raw diet) was helpful for me.

Good Luck

3/5/2008 9:12:44 AM

Synapse I just noticed you were interested in California Naturals! And when it comes to food allergies that is the "poster child" of dog foods. There's basically next to nothing in it, I think there's like 5 ingredients, just the essentials while still being appropriately formulated. That's great for trying to maintain a limited antigen diet. So if you did want to switch I'd go for that.

Also lamb is becoming less and less a foreign protein, so I'd recommend going for the Herring! Additionally, they offer a skin and coat additive that would likely really help with the dandruff and dry skin.

The natura brand in general is really awesome, which includes Innova, EVO, karma etc. They are the pioneers of holistic pet food. In fact EVO is VERY similar to feeding a raw diet, and it's probably one of the best foods you could feed to cats. Dog's aren't obligate carnivores, so there is more debate there.

If you're shopping around for a new pet food, all of those are really the "cream of the crop," and extremely healthy for your animals as far as dry food goes! They are also pretty comparable in price to some of the higher end foods and prescription diets.

3/5/2008 2:44:49 PM

raw beef and gunpowder

3/5/2008 2:48:40 PM

Quote :

"if the dog has allergies, they would know what to reccomend. jackass."

Hahahahahaha, I had a dog with a sensitive stomach. Lazy bitch of a vet almost killed her, suggesting the science diet she sold. My parents wouldn't let me have my dog back and I didn't want to kill the vet, so I took my dog and my mother to a different one, and only when he told my mother what pure shit she was feeding my dog would she believe it and switch to california natural.

So the short story is that idiots like you that blindly believe what you are told almost killed my dog and I had to go through hell to stop it. When my dog bloated a second time (emergency vet didn't tack her stomach correctly and caused all the damage that started this) the vet was amazed she was even alive after looking at her x-rays. I 100% believe that california natural saved her life. She also got some raw, but her stomach was so sensitive she couldn't handle an all raw diet. My next dog will get raw. I fostered a jack russell that was hit by a car, and after a month of a combo of chicken soup brand food and raw he was so much better no one really believed he was the same dog.

3/5/2008 3:07:03 PM

I feed my cat this stuff.

http://www.cat-food-zone.com/dry-food.html

It's what my breeder recommended and she's been great on it so far. She's still less than a year old though and it's my first cat, so I don't have much to compare too. I considered a raw diet but I don't see what the benefit would be over a good high protein kibble like I'm feeding her. I'd be willing to try it though. Do any of you raw food proponents have a good guide I could take a look at to get started?

3/5/2008 4:31:47 PM

I second what the person above said, I do not intend to switch my cats to a raw diet but where is a good place for info on raw diets. I'm guessing making the meals would end up being cheaper, then buying pre-packaged raw food.

On the plus side my rabbit is on a 100% raw diet! He's also vegan

3/5/2008 4:44:31 PM

^those cats aren't your cats, mike. the bunny's not yours either. and while we're at it, neither is the dog.

dog #1 w/ seasonal and corn allergies: castor & pollux organix adult dog formula (just switched)

dog #2 w/ bad hips: nutro large breed w/ glucosamine & chondroitin (will soon be switching to castor & pollux if it goes well w/ dog #1)

if castor & pollux doesn't work out, we're moving to solid gold.

and i think THE biggest load of bullshit i have ever seen when it comes to dog food is VEGETARIAN/VEGAN dog food. what the fuck have you lost your fucking mind

[Edited on March 5, 2008 at 4:56 PM. Reason : ]

3/5/2008 4:46:10 PM

Life's Abundance does have low carbs which is good! I took a look at the guarunteed analysis and Innova Evo is much higher in protein at 50% vs. the 32% of Life's Abundance. So if you were interested in a high protein diet, there are other options out there that would be better suited to your cats dietary needs.

Also you don't necessarily have to make your own raw food in order to feed raw. I feed my cats raw for about a buck a day (2 cats). I think there are a few foods out there that are pre-formulated raw frozen diets, here's the link to the one I use http://www.naturesvariety.com/. I just bought a bag of 48 medallions for $10.95. It should last about a week and a half.

I used to feed castor and pollux to my cats and liked it a lot! It wasn't until I switched over to Science Diet that I started becoming disgruntled with what's in pet food.

Here are some links I learned a lot from when I was researching Raw. I also learned a lot by sitting in Borders for a few hours and reading about pet nutrition in holistic pet care books.

http://www.catinfo.org/-she promotes raw food and wet food. I'm not so sure about the wet food I've seen too many cats fed purely canned foot with the nastiest teeth, although I'm sure that overall it's healthier than dry food.

http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/list.php?14-message board full of tons of people with first hand experience feeding raw.

[Edited on March 5, 2008 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2008 5:25:46 PM

Quote :

"I second what the person above said, I do not intend to switch my cats to a raw diet but where is a good place for info on raw diets. I'm guessing making the meals would end up being cheaper, then buying pre-packaged raw food."

Yup, if you have a large animal or several small ones it'd be worth contacting Cliff's meat market in Carrboro about ground chicken/turkey necks if you don't want to feed whole bones. Once a week or so they grind necks, but they have to completely disassemble the grinder to clean it before they can run meat for human consumption through it so they have to have enough people interested to make it worth their time before they will do that.

Otherwise, there's a few places that sell frozen ground raw pet food. Whole foods is one of them I think. My dog died several years ago so I haven't really kept up.

3/5/2008 6:38:01 PM

What the fuck?

Let me get this straight...
You feed your animals raw meat because it's "natural."
Yet, before you give it to them you have all the shit/bacteria on the outside of the meat ground into the rest of it?
Sure it's frozen, but the meat had the chance to grow bacteria before it was frozen and after you thaw it.
What's natural about ground meat?

In the wild, an animal will kill it's prey and eat it before it gets the chance to develop a lot of bacteria.
If you're going to feed your animals "natural" food then that's how you should do it.
Buy a live chxn, chop it's head off, cut the meat off, and give it to your pet.

The only raw meat our animals eat comes from birds or bunnies they catch or the deer I shot and brought home 20 minutes before (and I cut off all exterior meat).

BTW, what the ancestors of domesticated animals ate does not matter because domesticated animals have been domesticated.

[Edited on March 5, 2008 at 11:07 PM. Reason : ]

3/5/2008 11:04:11 PM

and one of em is in vet school and advocating feeding raw diets

that's what is really scary
maybe she'll pay attention in class and be disabused of that notion

3/6/2008 1:07:14 AM

Quote :

"and one of em is in vet school and advocating feeding raw diets that's what is really scary maybe she'll pay attention in class and be disabused of that notion"

Or maybe you'll realize it's a good idea! You know, instead of feeding the shit they'd normally have to pay a landfill to take, but companies put in dog and cat food and sell it to you instead. Stuff that can't even go into hot dogs, that's what's in most kibbles. Dead cows, tumors, yum!

3/6/2008 1:30:58 AM

you think salmonella and campylobacter is better to feed an animal than less than prime cuts?

and, so you dont embarrass yourself any further, i knew before vet school that feeding raw diets to pets wasnt the best idea ever conceived, and vet school only served to further that belief

its wonderful what a little knowledge will do for you

you should try it sometime

3/6/2008 1:38:43 AM

^^You're a fucking idiot.

Anyone who eats beef eats a dead cow.
What an animal needs to sustain a healthy body can be broken down into basic nutrients.
The form of those nutrients really doesn't matter.
Yeah, a filet looks nice on your dinner plate, but you can find plenty of other not so appetizing foods that would fill the exact same nutritional needs.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 1:47 AM. Reason : had to add the ^^]

3/6/2008 1:47:23 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, a filet looks nice on your dinner plate, but you can find plenty of other not so appetizing foods that would fill the exact same nutritional needs."

You start eating cancerous tumors and tell me what they do to you, okay?

If you think animals get anything other than that in most kibbles, you are sadly mistaken. It's DOA animals, tumors, moldy corn, the stuff they scrape off the floor at the end of the day. I don't care how fucking well you process it, I'm not feeding my animals a polished turd. I've seen the difference and used to feed science diet myself. When I compare the health of my dog on science diet and the other foods I tried, Science diet is pure shit. You are better off feeding Purina ONE at a fraction of the price. No lie, I have talked to dozens of breeders and trainers with the same opinion.

In fact, guess what? The people that breed and train working dogs feed raw! They don't give a shit about what people that stick needles into overweight pets say, they do what fucking WORKS because they don't want to lose a competition because the dog had to stop and scratch because the shit they put in kibble gives them allergies.

3/6/2008 2:11:25 AM

I would hazard to say that the intensive inbreeding in show dogs has a lot more to do with allergies then the feed additives, additives wouldn't matter if the immune system wasn't compromised. but I'm just a phy/imm grad student

3/6/2008 5:13:54 AM

Quote :

"When I compare the health of my dog on science diet and the other foods I tried, Science diet is pure shit."

Ohh, I'm sorry.
I believe you now. Everything you say is right. You know, because one data point is statistically significant.

We have a dog with allergies.
We talked to vets, did research, and tried many foods.
Finally my gf figured out she (the dog) was allergic to corn.
We haven't fed her anything with corn since then and she's been perfectly fine.
There's a lot more to food than simply saying raw is good and dry is bad.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 7:33 AM. Reason : (the dog)]

3/6/2008 7:32:19 AM

Quote :

"If you think animals get anything other than that in most kibbles, you are sadly mistaken. It's DOA animals, tumors, moldy corn, the stuff they scrape off the floor at the end of the day. I don't care how fucking well you process it, I'm not feeding my animals a polished turd. I've seen the difference and used to feed science diet myself. When I compare the health of my dog on science diet and the other foods I tried, Science diet is pure shit. You are better off feeding Purina ONE at a fraction of the price. No lie, I have talked to dozens of breeders and trainers with the same opinion."

holy fuck
have you EVER taken any companion animal related classes or hell just read the labels in the store?
there are SEVERAL brands of dog food that use human quality/grade ingredients, not the shit they put in alpo.

you're obviously a moron and this is exactly why i don't bother with these threads anymore. the stupidity is overwhelming and nothing anybody does can help it.

3/6/2008 8:09:26 AM

Quote :

"The form of those nutrients really doesn't matter. Yeah, a filet looks nice on your dinner plate, but you can find plenty of other not so appetizing foods that would fill the exact same nutritional needs"

Haven't you ever heard that its better to steam veggies than boil them? Ever read any of the studies about how overcooked meat has more carcinogens?

So cats are "domesticated"... they still don't drink alot of water, and they concentrate their pee, so eating dry kibble and not drinking enough water = bad.

So the choices are to give my cat overcooked canned food that might give them cancer
or dry food that WILL give him UTI's and bladder stones,
or frozen raw food which may have bacteria on it,
or start my own farm.

Anyhow, I found a place that sells frozen raw medallions (Barnes Supply in Durham), so I'm going to see if my cats will eat those... the store I went to was awesome, because they sold all that fancy holistic/etc cat/dog food ... even found a dry cat food that doesnt have any corn or wheat, so I'm going to try that out on the cat who's got the bloody stools.

Seachel-- how do you thaw the medallions? there weren't instructions on the package.... I popped some in the microwave for 45s, and they got all rubbery

3/6/2008 8:47:18 AM

The solution...dry food + a bowl of water.

-quality dry food is not overcooked.
-the form of those nutrients really doesn't matter. Food nutrient content is tested after all of the processing. Yeah, if you boil veggies then you lose nutrients to the water, but if you didn't need those nutrients in the first place then wtf does it matter?

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 9:11 AM. Reason : Your cat is gonna die from radiation from your fucking microwave. better feed it something else]

3/6/2008 9:10:12 AM

I have a fucking water fountain for my cat. He drinks from it, but not enough, and I can't force him to drink.

And I've never seen the amino acid contents listed on a bag of cat food. Cooking denatures proteins and enzymes, some of which carnivores can't make for themselves (such at Taurine, which is added to most cooked cat foods) and need from another source.

Oh yeah, an interested article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Pottenger,_Jr.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 9:36 AM. Reason : l]

3/6/2008 9:33:45 AM

There is some extreme misinformation on this board. It's interesting how some people are so quick to denigrate those of us that are just interested in feeding and promoting nutrition that is physiologically intended for companion animals.

But I'll go into that later.

Since I don't have a whole lot of time this morning, I wanted to make you all aware of what is in the brands that seem to be most commonly purchased. I'll just touch on the first 5 or so ingredients since what comes after are usually minerals, vitamins and supplements needed to round out the diet.

Case #1-Adult Cat-Science Diet Chicken and Rice Recipe

Chicken (Great a meat product, first ingredient! But this is whole chicken, once it’s been dehydrated to put into kibble, and further processed down to pure protein it’ll actually fall in as the 4th or 5th ingredient in greatest concentration)

Brewers Rice (Small fragments of the whole rice kernel (second heads), not a great deal of nutrition; this quote from Pacific Ag Commodities explains it well-"If the quality of the second heads are poor, they will be sold for pet food or dairy feed. Brewers rice is sold for pet food and dairy feed exclusively."

Corn Gluten Meal (This is the extruded part of the corn; what remains after the gluten and starch is removed. So what’s left?! Interestingly also used most commonly as a herbicide)

Chicken By-Product Meal (Translation-entrails, feet, necks, sometimes feathers. There’s not any actual meat protein here.)

Ground Whole Grain Corn (It’s exactly what it says)

Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid) (Again, just plain old fat and it is preserved with Vitamin E and Citric Acid which is a plus.)

Chicken Liver Flavor (A well formulated food does not require flavoring to be palatable)


Case #2-Adult Dog-Purina ProPlan Selects Natural Lamb and Oatmeal Formula

Lamb (Again the first ingredient is a meat protein, but unfortunately because it’s just plain lamb this is not the source of protein in highest concentration)

Brewers Rice (Little to no nutrition, filler if you will)

Corn Gluten Meal (Herbicide, filler, a weak plant-based protein source)

Chicken Meal (This is ground down to pure protein, maybe some bone as well. This is where the lamb above would show up in the ingredient concentration gradient.)

Pearled Barley (A grain carbohydrate. Pearled means the nutritious vitamin laden germ and bran layers are removed.)

Oatmeal (A carbohydrate filler)

Animal Fat (preserved with mixed-tocopherols a form of Vitamin E) (Looks good)

Fish Meal (Ground down protein source, the un-decomposed tissue of fish, may or may not include the oil. It’s a good complement to other meat protein sources to round out the amino acid profile)

Dried Egg Product

Fish Oil (Awesome! Omega-3’s are always good!)

Pea Fiber (I’m not really familiar with this ingredient)

Dried Beet Pulp (The leftovers from the extraction process of sugar from sugar beets. Typically fed to horses. High in fiber-dogs and cats don’t have a very well developed cecum or colon so I’m not sure how important heavy sources of fiber are.)

You might notice that a lot of these ingredients have been used for ages to feed livestock species; namely cows, sheep, horses. Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Fish Meal, Pearled Barley, Dried Beet Pulp, Egg, Ground Whole Corn.

So my question is…who the hell are they formulating these foods for?! Herbivores or Carnivores (and as I said in the case of the cat an OBLIGATE carnivore!) Just because it looks good on paper and saves a buck DOESN’T mean it’s meeting the requirements of our pets.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 9:57 AM. Reason : :]

3/6/2008 9:35:51 AM