About six months ago I contacted my management company about the guidelines for fencing in the yard behind my town home. The manager referred me to call the Architectural Committee Chairperson who I explained what I was trying to do (build a fence conforming to the others on my building to enclose my back yard). He called me back a few days later and said the main thing to look out for was the perimeter of my lot, to make sure my fence did not encroach on the common area and to build the fence to conform with the others that are already here. (box wooden fence, 6' high, natural wood color, etc)

At this time I had a survey of my lot done, the surveyor dug up the pins that marked the corners of my lot and left them exposed with flags next to them. He mailed me a survey showing where everything was in relation to my town house.

In October it cooled off and rained a few days which softened the ground up. (digging over the summer was impossible) On October 29th I e-mailed a full application for an architectural change to my management company. The application had the survey attached to it showing where the fence would go. The following day the manager responded that he had received it and would forward it to the architectural committee for approval.

A couple of weeks later my friend and I dug holes and set the posts where the fence belonged in an effort to get this done before the ground dried out completely. I had called the 800 number for digging in late October to get my yard painted, this dig permit was only good for two weeks. I have cable, telephone, and electric lines across my lot so I had to get those marked to layout the fence posts and not to cut anything. We also set the posts in concrete and nailed some side rails etc to them.

A few days later I got a door hanger from my management company saying to stop work until I had approval. I called to find out what I needed to do to get it approved and was told that they had 30 days to respond. After another week the guy finally called me back that is actually on the homeowners association to come look at it. He came and said he could not sign it because he was not sure if my survey was right. He said my lot could not be as deep as it is.

A few more weeks roll by and I just now get a formal response from them that my request was denied. It says.

Quote :

"It appears the stakes marking the rear of your lot are incorrect. Please locate the correct survey stakes, submit a new ARC form with the correct survey map and markings. This information will then be presented to the Architectural Committee for their review. No additional work may be done until the new ARC has been receive and approved. I regret any inconvenience this may cause you. "

This letter was dated December 3rd, 2007. My initial request was submitted Oct 29 and received Oct 30. The covenants clearly say that after 30 days without a response an architectural request is deemed approved. These covenants are recorded in Wake County register of deeds book 2983 page 857.

Quote :

"In the event said Board, or its designated committee, fails to approve or disapprove such design and location within thirty (30) days after said plans and specifications have been submitted to it, approval will not be required and this Article will be deemed to have been fully complied with. "

They received the paperwork on the 30th of October. Mailed a response December 4th. That is 35 days.

I have also called the surveyor and he verified that there is no way the survey is incorrect. He dug up pins that were buried roughly a foot in the ground that mark the edge of my lot. Everything else fits where it should on the lot.

At this point I am obviously pissed that after 5 weeks I am being told to wait another presumably 30 days to finish the fence. That they are putting the onus on me to prove to them that a $250.00 survey, by a licensed surveyor is correct. And that they don't want to tell me where the fence should go, but they believe it is not in the correct place. They believe this despite the fact that the buried iron stakes are exposed where any of them can come see and examine in relation to the building and drawn survey.

I am not really sure where to go from here. I already have about $1600 in wood and materials either in my kitchen or in the yard. I have about $50 in equipment rental to auger the holes. I also have $250 in a survey that they will not accept. I don't really see myself forking over another $250 or more to get a different surveyor to survey my lot. I have already confirmed with the first surveyor that everything is correct. The chances of him coming up with a different result are not very good. How in the hell does one come up with a new "correct" survey when the first one is correct?

12/6/2007 11:29:26 PM

is it 30 calendar days or 30 business days?

you might want to look at the beginning of the covenants where it lists all the seemingly redundant definitions of terms

12/6/2007 11:41:25 PM

sounds like its already been approved

its been 30 days

go ahead and build, if they tell you to stop, show them you are correct and if that doesnt work, sue them.

its just that simple.

12/6/2007 11:43:15 PM

a) get on the homeowners association
b) be courteous and talk to the association. ask for help and show them what you already have. be reasonable & point out the 30 day thing
c) above all else keep records and document everything everything everything

good luck, HOA problems suck

12/6/2007 11:44:03 PM

just finish the fucking fence and tell them to go blow themselves. i hate homeowners associations

12/6/2007 11:45:06 PM

a professional certified surveyor should be enough for any homeowners association. I doubt its 30 business days but you should definitely check on that one too.

12/6/2007 11:46:44 PM

just to be clear part a of my suggestion is for long term benefit

12/6/2007 11:47:05 PM

you seem like just the type who would be on a HOA

12/6/2007 11:51:26 PM

paint your house with zebra stripes and get some of those pink flamingos and maybe some flashing neon signs offer to remove said flare in exchange for building fence in peace.

12/7/2007 1:36:55 AM

^ Our neighbor has a whole flock of pink flamingos in her yard. It's bizarre. I'm not sure if she has beef with the HOA and its her protest or what.

I'd get a written copy of the 30 day policy though, write a letter with your intent to continue with construction, but also noting that you'll have the survey redone, and will cover costs if things are different, but that you are certain the initial survey was right.

12/7/2007 1:41:52 AM

Are we living in the soviet union, now? You have to talk to a bunch of fucking bureaucrats, fill out a bunch of fucking forms, and wait a bunch of weeks so you can build a fence on your own damn property?


The original post reads like dystopian satire. Americans are becoming good little communists.

12/7/2007 1:43:52 AM

^If only my neighbors chainlink and barbed wire fence didn't affect the value of my house...

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 1:54 AM. Reason : ...]

12/7/2007 1:53:47 AM

Is that a real situation or are you creating a boogeyman? Furthermore, if you can prove actual damages, you can sue to recover them.

Homeowners associations are for busybodies who want to meddle without having to actually prove that some action is harmful to the community. This is because all of the petty shit that they engage in has a miniscule effect on property values.

The thing HOAs fear the most is quantifying their effect because then it will reveal how worthless they are. That's why covenants are often overarching.

Edit - Consider this: suppose you live in a house for 5 years, paying HOA dues of $50 a month. That's $3000. Which do you think his the greater expected value (that is, increase in property value weighted by the probability of realizing that increase) --

- paying the HOA $3000 to do petty meddling 99% of the time
- using that money to do renovations just before you sell your house?



[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 2:22 AM. Reason : .]

12/7/2007 2:05:18 AM

The $33 month I pay to have access to a pool, clean and landscaped entrances to my hood + like 3 parties a year I'd say is definitely worth the money. Homes are selling in my hood in a couple of weeks in some instances because it's one of the more desirable starter neighborhoods in Holly Springs.

Not all HOAs are worthless/evil. Just like 98% of em.

12/7/2007 8:37:21 AM

seems like you have done your part, they waited 30 days, and gave you implied consent. build your fence.

12/7/2007 10:01:56 AM

tell them that you'd be happy to have the survey done again, as long as they pay for it up front



[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 11:06 AM. Reason : s]

12/7/2007 11:04:48 AM

Be sure to add plenty of "KEEP OUT", "PRIVATE PROPERTY", and "BEWARE OF DOG" signs. Razor wire optional but suggested.

12/7/2007 11:08:53 AM

i don't think i'll ever live anywhere that has a HOA again... after they complained about one fucking little pot of flowers i put on the front porch. it was seriously less than a foot tall. not to mention the idiot landscapers would blow dirt into the garage when i was working in there, into car windows, all over the front door, it was a mess. now i can set my lawn flamingoes and inside furniture on my porch and not have to listen to anyone bitching about it.

12/7/2007 11:13:29 AM

I still don't understand how a bunch of people (HOAs) think they can tell you what to do on your own property.

Ron Paul FTW.

12/7/2007 11:18:51 AM

Just another reason I don't now, and will never, live in an HOA neighborhood. Fuck that shit.

12/7/2007 11:25:04 AM

"wwaahhh it affects my property values!"
Go fuck a rake.

12/7/2007 11:31:40 AM

uhh... you guys realize that HOAs are voluntary, right?

12/7/2007 11:36:32 AM

HOA suck. I'm paying $99/month starting Jan 2008. for 2007 I paid $92/month and 2006 i paid about $80/month. Every year they raise the dues yet I have yet to see anything done that was promised when I bought the house back in early 2006. The only thing I'm seeing done is 1) mexicans to cut the grass. 2) powerwash my siding/brick twice a year 3) maintain the pool/club house and common area. Non of these 3 things changes from year to year so an increase is not warranted. Last time I checked we had over $76,000 in the HOA account. WTF are the increases for? Is it within my right as a home owner to demand a print out of all costs the HOA pays and income etc?

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 11:39 AM. Reason : .]

12/7/2007 11:38:36 AM

Quote :

" Is it within my right as a home owner to demand a print out of all costs the HOA pays and income etc?"

yes.

Also remember that as an owner, you have the right to participate in the voting and HOA board. If you don't like how it's being handled, get involved. A lot of the problems with HOAs stem from the fact that most people don't care to get involved, and the people who do put time into it are the ones who are psychotic and tend to run amok.

12/7/2007 11:55:13 AM

Inflation.

12/7/2007 11:55:52 AM

^^I should get involved. My neighbor is on the board so thats who gives me all the info before the mailings go out. She is always trying to get me to come to meetings but the problem is i have no time. I'm always at work and when I get home I have my own clients work to do. :-/

12/7/2007 12:00:03 PM

Quote :

"yes. Also remember that as an owner, you have the right to participate in the voting and HOA board. If you don't like how it's being handled, get involved. A lot of the problems with HOAs stem from the fact that most people don't care to get involved, and the people who do put time into it are the ones who are psychotic and tend to run amok."

completely agree - i just got elected to my HOA's board a few months ago when it got turned over to the homeowners from the builder - not because i'm overly interested in running things - but because i don't trust other idiots to not screw everything up

12/7/2007 12:02:45 PM

Quote :

"Is it within my right as a home owner to demand a print out of all costs the HOA pays and income etc?"

It should have been included in the yearly summary or something. I've gotten mine in both neighborhoods.

My statement for my Holly Springs home even had some communications about why we ran an extra surplus last year (greater than estimated income from late fees) and what hey were having to do with that money to avoid tax implication issues.

Everything is broken out and you can see all the costs.

12/7/2007 12:19:53 PM

Quote :

"Last time I checked we had over $76,000 in the HOA account. WTF are the increases for? Is it within my right as a home owner to demand a print out of all costs the HOA pays and income etc? "

If your HOA has 76k in the bank, your board is screwing up. There is absolutely no reason they need that much excess. At worst, they need enough money to fix whatever could be broken in a hurricane, or other routine maintenance costs that exceed 1 months dues income.

12/7/2007 1:03:25 PM

Quote :

"If your HOA has 76k in the bank, your board is screwing up. There is absolutely no reason they need that much excess. At worst, they need enough money to fix whatever could be broken in a hurricane, or other routine maintenance costs that exceed 1 months dues income."

You don't know near enough details to make that statement. And the fact the poster didn't realize he should be getting a copy of the balance sheet shows he quite possibly isn't the most trustworthy source regarding this "76,000" in excess.

For all we know, thats the yearly contract for the pool maintenance.

For all we know, they are saving up to build a new playground or two.

For all we know...

There could be tons of reasons for that excess.

12/7/2007 1:14:34 PM

^Thats why i asked because we are not receiving statements with a break down with every cost. We just received a letter stating how much we had tucked away in the bank.

Quote :

"shows he quite possibly isn't the most trustworthy source regarding this "76,000" in excess."

thats the most dumbass thing i've ever heard. So basiclly you are saying I made it all up

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 1:23 PM. Reason : .]

12/7/2007 1:22:38 PM

^^ I'm pretty sure pool stuff falls under "or other routine maintenance costs that exceed 1 months dues income."


And in general, a HOA doesn't need 76k in the bank.

12/7/2007 1:27:36 PM

the only way I see needing that much money is to start a new project. Like building a 2nd pool or whatever. Which is NOT in the plans.

12/7/2007 1:29:30 PM

Do you live in a townhouse? Lots of times they need a large fund of savings so they can do exterior stuff like replace the roofs or repave the roads.

12/7/2007 1:35:10 PM

Quote :

"At worst, they need enough money to fix whatever could be broken in a hurricane"

insurance.

12/7/2007 1:42:37 PM

Quote :

"So basiclly you are saying I made it all up "

Get a clue dipshit. That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying you have no clue about that money because you haven't seen the EOY statement and the budget for next year. You think you heard your neighbor right, but that remains to be seen.

12/7/2007 1:48:01 PM

if by 'heard my neighbor right' you mean she read me the same letter I got in the mail, then yes.

If you had any reading comprehension you would know that I got that figure from a letter they sent us. I also have a document with a list of things 'promised' and services the HOA provides for us. But of course you are just quick to troll because thats your meaning of life.

12/7/2007 1:50:21 PM

it's the mean old lady isn't it...she doesn't want you to have a fence.

And Str8BacardiL already tried to get voted on this HOA...it's pretty much a dictatorship they got going on in his HOA (unless you've moved). We were neighbors and I went to every HOA meeting they had. Two of the best people they had on that board resigned before their term was up, unfortunately, because of the weirdos they have on it.

You know what you should do--bring up the pool incident That'll REALLY piss them off!

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 2:02 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2007 2:01:50 PM

I am not posting names here but you are right. All indications are she is the culprit.

Me being diplomatic with those people has never really worked in my favor. I initially asked to meet with them to get the fence approved so that we would not have to have multiple applications and could work out any concerns on the first one. They never responded to that either. (no surprise really)

My neighborhood is mostly rental properties or people in my age bracket who have purchased. As you can imagine with such a small number of owner occupants there are not too many people who want to commit the time required to be on the board of directors. I tried to get involved when I purchased my house and was made to feel pretty unwelcome. I did not press further because there is not much appeal to begging to be on a board with a bunch of people that don't like you, when you are not even being compensated for it.

12/7/2007 2:11:01 PM

12/7/2007 2:12:23 PM

Yeah, great idea. I bet it will be loads of fun taking it down later.

12/7/2007 2:16:11 PM

fuck taking it down. it's his house and his land.

12/7/2007 2:19:37 PM

Don't be so naive.

12/7/2007 2:22:29 PM

Naive? He's past the 30-day period and he's done everything by the book. The HOA has no grounds to make him bring it down other than to be huge pricks.

12/7/2007 2:28:06 PM

Well the way I see it the fence being approved or disapproved is not even up for debate anymore. There is a precedent already set in the neighborhood for fences like the one I am putting up. HOA's have a legal obligation to apply policies consistently to all of the homes and my fence is not any different from the others. I went out of my way to make sure it was the exact same design hoping for quick approval.

It seems the only thing in dispute is the depth of the fence. I was told initially it could go within my property lines so that is how it was laid out. If I am later proven wrong (which I wont be) then the rear wall of the fence could be moved forward without actually taking the whole thing down.

If they send me a letter demanding that I tear the whole thing down that is when I will have a problem, because I will probably have to get a lawyer and an injunction stopping them from taking it down themselves. In that situation I would win but only after fighting with them in court.

12/7/2007 2:29:42 PM

^^ Not if he's building the fence past his property line.

12/7/2007 2:32:56 PM

but did we not already establish the surveyor correctly got his property boundaries squared away? exactly.

12/7/2007 2:37:32 PM

exactly???

12/7/2007 2:39:39 PM

something wrong with that word? I thought we were here discussing whether or not he can put the fence up on his property. The surveyor defined where his property boundaries exist. Is there an issue with my english? Not understanding the miscommunication.

12/7/2007 2:46:19 PM

Quote :

"I will probably have to get a lawyer and an injunction stopping them from taking it down themselves."

that's called "get the fuck off of my property right now."

12/7/2007 2:46:54 PM