I'm more than likely going to be applying for grad school in this fall and am a little nervous about getting the 3 required letters of recommendation. I know many of you'll are grad or phD students and I was hoping for some insight. I've never been a student that has had any real close personal contact with any of my teachers. I do well in the courses, I just don't usually go to professors office hours and get that personal contact. Also, when it comes to my advisor, it's more of a in for my pin number and out kind of deal each semester. Do professors ever write recommendation letters for students they don't know well. I'm going to have to get on this early in the fall and I was thinking I should just email some of the professors that I've had a couple of times and see if they'll let me come in and explain why they should write me a recommendation. Any advice would be great.

7/23/2007 9:00:09 PM

Yes they will write you a letter even though they didn't know you well. I had to do this for one of my letters and all he wanted to see was a copy of my transcript. In addition, your advisor will most likely be very willing to write you one even though you're not close. Also, try to pick established professors with tenure and who are known in their academic field. They read these closely and at top/good programs shitty recomendations can cost you a lot.

Get on this as soon as school starts up or even this summer. Those deadlines sneak up fast and you will probably have to keep after them to make sure they get it done (and of course make sure each school gets them). Also for some of the better programs the deadline can be really early like december 1st.

Lastly, make sure you provide the writer with the addresses and envelopes for each place you want to apply. The professor's department will pay the postage, but adding this couldn't hurt either (it was nice to be able to get delivery confirmed).

[Edited on July 23, 2007 at 9:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2007 9:15:36 PM

established professors write letters of recommendation all the time, so it's not a big deal. it's a good idea to give them a copy of your resume and any essays you might have to write for your application, to give them a better idea of what to write about.

7/24/2007 12:23:06 AM

I had the same problem, only really knew 2 professors. I just asked a "random" third, one I'd had a few classes with that was well respected in his specialty. I gave him my resume, transcript, and a statement of purpose/goals essay.

Be sure to thank them for doing it but don't feel bad about asking. They do it all the time and it's an understood part of being a professor.

7/24/2007 2:58:50 PM

that's good, I'm not too worried now. I'm in Statistics and have had three professors twice, and my new adviser is a teacher who's class I had during the Spring. I'm sure I can count on at least three of those four. Thanks for the tips everyone.

7/24/2007 3:40:06 PM

For my undergrad degree, I attended an enormous state university where none of the professors really knew me. Furthermore, there was six years' time between finishing my undergrad and starting to grad school. So, I had no professors in my field to write recommendations for me to go to grad school.

At many places (except the most competitive), recommendation letters don't seem to be a huge deal provided that you have the grades, GRE scores, etc. to support your application. That being said, just give your resume and transcript to professors who (1) are well-known in your field, and (2) you took a class with and made a high grade. You'll get the desired result.

7/24/2007 4:09:58 PM

the professors that wrote my letters of recommendation had given me C's and A+'s... so they knew me at my best and worst. I still keep in touch with them as much as possible.

Believe me, i never really spoke in class, but the professors knew me... and they'll know you. They know the deal, and are most of the time more than happy to help you further your educational endeavors.

7/24/2007 4:23:51 PM

Proofread everything well--"Letters of Recomendation" (sic).

7/25/2007 2:07:45 AM

Quote :

"I've never been a student that has had any real close personal contact with any of my teachers."

you've gone and screwed the pooch already

7/25/2007 9:39:08 AM

Be prepared to provide them with a current resume, even if they do know you reasonably well. Try to make an appointment to talk with the professor personally about your goals so that you will be fresh in their mind. Do this before you fill out your application. When you give them the form, provide them with your resume, and if you've already written it give them your personal statement too. Anything to remind them that your are qualified and an awesome individual. Keep in touch throughout the process, but don't be so persistent that you become a pain in the ass. Good luck!

7/25/2007 4:43:57 PM

Letters of Recommendation can be crucial in the grad school admissions process.

I would like to add that some of the time it helps to give a bullet point list of items you want the person to hit. If your asking professors this prob doesnt apply because their used to writing LOR's but it helps if your asking your employer or bible study teacher etc.

Please include the following:

- Your relationship to the applicant

- Your job title & contact info

- Character of the applicant

- Leadership skills of applicant

- Problem solving of applicant


Try to keep the bullets to under 10 if possible.

Oh and it always looks better to sign away your right to view the letter. I was confused about this at first when I applied to grad school but you are asked to sign one of two statements. The first statement basically says, "I keep my right to view the recommendation," and the other statement (THE ONE YOU SHOULD SIGN) says, "I waive my right to view the recommendation."

Good luck Philly4808. Hope everything works out for the best.

7/25/2007 9:37:35 PM

Quote :

"Also, try to pick established professors with tenure and who are known in their academic field. They read these closely and at top/good programs shitty recomendations can cost you a lot"

I disagree. Some of the best recommendations I've ever received were from non tenure track profs.

7/26/2007 5:25:15 PM

hmm i agree with budman. I am a graduate student at UNC's Kenan-Flagler School of Business and I know that all the top business schools expect recommendations from specific professors.

Example 1: If you are applying to the MBA program at UNC-Ch and your undergrad was Bus Mgmt with a concentration in Finance, they will expect you to have a recommendation from Dr. Charles Jones (head of the finance department at NC State).

Example 2: If you are applying to the MAC program at UNC-Ch, regardless of your undergrad, they will expect you to get a recommendation from Dr. Krawcyk (head of NCSU Accounting dept).

I think the key term to focus on is TOP graduate schools. If you are applying to a TOP graduate school then I would try to get recommendations from the most prominent people available to you.

Philly4808 keep this in mind. They will be looking at several criteria when considering your application.

1. Overall and Major GPA

2. GMAT/LSAT/GRE/MCAT score

3. Leadership Skills/Experience

4. Quality of Recommendations

5. Relevant Work Experience

If you are solid with 4/5 of these then you will be fine.

7/26/2007 5:48:38 PM

bowman

7/27/2007 12:30:50 AM

Do these recommendations have to be academic?

My principal and curriculum coordinator would do a much better job at describing me than a professor who's completely forgotten me.

7/27/2007 8:11:43 AM

Good point namwob.

I am just thinking that some of my non tenure track professors know me better than ones who are experts in the field. They have a better sense of who I am and what my goals are.

7/27/2007 10:19:37 AM

i know that it was my recommendations that got me into georgia tech's woodruff school for mechanical engineering grad program (they were #6 or #7 last year and i think that they are up to #4 in the nation this year)

but i had two professors that really knew me plus one of my bosses from my co-op who i got along with really well (he had his masters in ME from nc state)

7/27/2007 10:24:22 AM

Boone,

Most graduate schools will require at least one (sometimes two) academic recommendations. Typically they will expect one academic, one professional, and one personal (bible study teacher, family friend, etc). To answer your question - no, academic does not necessarily mean professor. Principal/Dept Head can also serve as your academic recommendation.

7/27/2007 6:17:04 PM

This is my best advice for anyone considering graduate school.

Set up an appointment with the Director of the graduate program you are interested in and discuss what you need to do to gain admission to their program.

Try to do this early in your junior year of your undergraduate studies. Sit down with the Director and lay out your grades, resume, leadership/work experience, and inquire about the average graduate test scores for the current class profile.

Then you and the director can develop a gameplan that specifically outlines
1) the grades you will need to make to increase/maintain your GPA
2) any elective courses you should consider in order to fulfill any prereqs
3) what you need to make on the GMAT/LSAT/GRE/MCAT and how to prepare for it
4) certain areas where you can improve or polish up your resume
5) what recommendations would look good to the admissions committee

Your next step will be to execute your gameplan and to follow up with the Director every few months or so to communicate your progress and to serve as a gentle reminder that you two laid out a gameplan to reach your goal of admission and that you are keeping your end of the bargain.

7/27/2007 6:27:23 PM

philly when you get into grad school you better start getting those "personal connections"

7/27/2007 6:32:50 PM

Namwob or anyone else who knows...what is the deal on LORs for MBA applications for someone who has been out of school for 3-5 years? I can't really imagine that they want you to go back and get a recommendation from a professor after having been out for several years.

Also, i hear that GPA is not as big a factor applying to MBA school after having been out of school in the professional world for 3-5 years. FYI, I am hoping to attend Kenan-Flagler in 2 years...do you have any admissions info/tips (other than what can be found on the internet)?

[Edited on July 28, 2007 at 9:19 AM. Reason : .]

7/28/2007 9:18:21 AM

BigDave almost everyone who applies to UNC's MBA program has been out of school for around 4 years. They expect academic, professional, and personal recommendations. It seems like everyone on this thread is assuming academic = professors. This is not so. Assuming you went to NCSU for your business undergrad, I would seek out recommendations from someone prominent in the COM. Ex: Marketing - Kimbrough, Finance - Jones, Accounting - Krawyck.

To answer your question - I disagree. GPA is still a big factor in MBA admissions.

Kenan-Flagler looks at this:

1) GMAT - at least 650 (Try to score this your first time. Do not take the gmat more than twice.)

2) GPA - at least a 3.4 (They will allow ~3.1 if you score ~700 on the gmat.)

3) Work Experience - they will expect a LOR from your employer. In addition, Kenan-Flagler works with big companies so keep this in mind. They prob won't think much of a LOR from a small start-up company bc their program is directed at placing graduates in top firms in big cities (NY, Boston).

4) Leadership Skills/Experience - this is HUGE. Kenan-Flagler places a major emphasis on leadership.

5) Admissions Essays - Written/Oral Communication skills are vital.

7/28/2007 11:05:04 AM

Few tips for those in BigDave's shoes who are planning to pursue UNC's MBA/MAC in ~2 years.

1) Find out what the prereqs are. Kenan-Flagler has certain rules about placing out which can be very bothersome. Ex: I took Business Law in the Spring of 2002 and got an A but they will only let you place out if you took in in the Fall of 2004 or later and got a B+ or better. I am currently taking several summer school classes bc of these rules. Try to manipulate your undergrad to meet these prereqs if at all possible.

2) Kenan-Flager does not use semesters - they use "Mods". Rather than have a fall and spring semester, they have 4 Mods. Mod I and II make up the fall semester, while Mod III and Mod IV make up the spring semester. What ends up happening is that you will take around 19-20 hrs per semester (8/9 hrs per mod).

3) Parking is horrible. They have a parking deck for the business school similar to Dan Allen at NC State but they make you carpool 3-4 people per car and so basically you have to be on campus from ~9am - ~6pm (sometimes 9pm with recruiting events) everyday because you can only leave when your entire carpool is ready to go.

4) Kenan-Flagler does not use a normal grading system. Here is the system they use;

H = High (4.0 points)

H- = High Minus (3.7 points)

P+ = Pass Plus (3.3 points)

P = Pass (3.0 points)

P- = Low pass (2.7 points)

L = Poor (2.0 points)

F = Fail

They have a strict grading policy. Only 15% of a class students can receive H or H-, 60% receive P+ through P-, and then the rest receive L or F.

7/28/2007 11:16:00 AM

glad I made this thread, I'm getting a lot of good info here. I have another question though, sorry for my ignorance about this subject, but can you use the recommendation letter more than one time. Say I got to one of my professors and he/she agrees to write me a letter for graduate school. Is the way they write the letter specifically for graduate school or is it more in a general sense. I'm asking because I might want to apply for an internship that would require letters of recommendation. Thanks for the input.

7/28/2007 6:38:12 PM

Philly - thats a common question. Typically graduate schools have a form to fill out so professors cannot write a generic recommendation. But yes - it is acceptable to use the same LOR for graduate school/internship. This is what you should do. Have the professors write a generic letter of recommendation and then they can just replace the following parts...

Dear ________ ,


....For the reasons previously stated, I am giving Philly4808 my full support in his goal of admission to Kenan-Flagler / securing an internship with Firm X...

Everything else in the generic letter stays the same. Go ahead and put together a list of 3/4 people to use as your recommendations and have them keep this generic letter on file in case you need other LOR's in the future.

7/28/2007 8:32:07 PM

sounds good, I appreciate the advice there

7/28/2007 8:45:04 PM

I don't know what type of program you're applying to but you should also research what professors you might want to work with at the places you're applying (i'm assuming you will have to write a thesis or dissertation). You will want to identify them in your statement of purpose. In addition, state why you want to work with them and how it will help you intellectually and professionally.

It never hurts to drop names that you know your recommenders have contacts with at the places you're applying.

In short do research on every aspect you can think of because standing out in some way will help you get admitted and more importantly might land you fellowships, assistantships, free money, etc.

What type of program are you applying to? This will allow us to give you detailed advice.

7/29/2007 7:05:20 AM

Quote :

"Some of the best recommendations I've ever received were from non tenure track profs."

It depends. Sometimes a letter from someone who isn't well-known in the field can be helpful if it's a person that has worked closely with you and can give a glowing recommendation.

But sometimes, getting a good letter from someone who's well-known in the field you're applying to can be even better.

The best thing is to get a mix among your letters.

7/29/2007 8:22:03 AM

^there good for an internship, job, or a program that doesn't put much into letters. In these situations just having Dr. in front of your name will work. At top programs/good programs/average programs they will be like wtf who is this person.

I mean seriously which recommendation do you think carries more weight? I’m going to bet one from your university professor who studied under a Nobel Prize winner or is a department head, or full professor will beat out one from a journeymen instructor.

These tenured professors know what grad admission professors want to hear. If they agree to write you one it will be good since their reputation is some what vouching for you.

7/29/2007 8:51:19 AM

Quote :

"seriously which recommendation do you think carries more weight? I’m going to bet one from your university professor who studied under a Nobel Prize winner or is a department head, or full professor will beat out one from a journeymen instructor."

It really depends on the content. A letter from someone who has worked closely with you, really knows you, and writes glowing praise can be superior to a generic letter from someone accomplished.

But like I said, the best thing to do is get a mix among your letters.

7/29/2007 8:58:22 AM

A lot of people assume they are LIMITED to the number of LOR's stated in the application. This is not true. For example, UNC's Kenan-Flagler School of Business requests 3 LOR (1 academic, 1 professional, 1 personal). I asked the dean of admission about how many LOR's were appropriate and was told that I could submit as many LOR's as I wanted. I ended up submitting 5 LOR's for UNC.

This is my complete list of LOR's (Used for Grad School Admissions & Merit-Based Scholarships)

1) Bill Sloan (Finance Professor at NCSU COM, UNC Alumnus)

2) Dr. Lundstrum (Finance Professor at NCSU COM)

3) Dr. Giles (Accounting Professor at NCSU COM)

4) My Current/Future Employer (Ernst & Young LLP, Bigtime Donor to KFBS)

5) Second Employer where I was a summer associate (CapTrust)

6) My Bible Study Teacher (Men's Bible Study at Providence Baptist Church)

7) Certified Fraud Examiner (Scholarship Specific Recommendation)

8) Tim Gupton (Partner at Hughes, Pittman, Gupton LLP & UNC Alumni)

9) Tommy Drake (President of Drake Commercial Properties & UNC Alumni)



TIP 1 - Get as many LOR's as possible from prominent alumni of the school you are applying for.

TIP 2 - ALWAYS send a hand-written thank you note to anyone who wrote you a LOR.

TIP 3- Make it clear to the director of admissions of all schools you are applying for that you have met with the directors of other programs and that you are researching your options. (For example make sure to mention that other schools have offered you scholarships and you want to see what they have to offer). I was specifically told by the dean of admissions at UNC that it looks good to say that you have applied to WFU & Duke and conversely it looks bad if you don't.

7/29/2007 11:40:00 AM