My wife had a good point today. With us having one son and another one the way, we have some family land out in Arkansas that is completely unused at this time. Apparently the soil is good because at one time it is/was farmed when my mom was a child. Its like a hundred acre farm, or something and its being split between 7 brothers and sisters. My brother and I each get 5 acres and I can probably get his 5, giving me about 10 to work with. My mom has no desire towards it and wants to just give it directly to us. Sounds like its nothing more than a tax burden for me.

But has anybodys parents around here done tree farming? Its out in the middle of nowhere, and we have no desire to move out there. It has no road to this particular section at this time, so I don't see where I can make squat off of selling it. But it seems like a good investment with low labor demands and little upkeep as it takes forever to grow damn pine trees. Has anybodys family looked into this? Just seems like it might be a good investment in some otherwise worthless land as I am sure as hell not moving out there to start crop farming or just giving it away to some of my crazy ass kinfolk.

8/3/2006 9:42:22 PM

I dont know the exact details, other than thats where my grandfather and his brothers have a good deal of money in it, but it is decent money.

As I understand, one of my grandfathers brothers takes care of things like replanting, clearing, and those things, and that he doesnt actually do it himself - hes contracted with a company to have this done. At their age, thats understandable.

An excellent point brought up recently, and a factor in their decision to sell off some of the timber recently - normal price increases aside, last years hurricanes have propped up building supply prices.

To give you some numbers - three brothers, at the very minimum (we dont pry too much) $62,00 each, and they sold only timber, not the rights, and not all of it. I dont know how much land they have, except that it was, as late as the depression, part of the family farm, and this is in virginia, so its probably not too vast.

[Edited on August 3, 2006 at 9:51 PM. Reason : words]

8/3/2006 9:51:36 PM

Two words: Government Subsidies

Three Words: Stability for Life

8/3/2006 9:53:30 PM

If you plan on keeping the property for 40 or more years then go for it. My mom and dad own several hundred acres in rowan county and we have cut and replanted several plots. I think they got around 120,000 for 60 or so acres last time. But, dont plan on harvesting more than 1 time in your lifetime.



P.S. , you couldnt do any crop farming on 10 acres.

8/3/2006 9:56:47 PM

Your typical somewhat decent pine stand in the coastal plain/piedmont of NC will get you at least $2000/ac. With good management it's not uncommon to have timber sales in excess of $4000/ac on a 35 year rotation (compared to 45 years for your minimal investment pine stand).

Nighthawk, there are many variables that determine how profitable timber management is. These include soils, hydrology, climate, tree genetics, competition, etc.

My suggestion would be first don't split the land up.
That's the stupidest management decision anyone makes. Its typical here in NC to find 5-10 lots right next to each other that are a like 200 feet wide by 2000 feet long, each with their little bit of roadfront.
Its easier to manage larger pieces of land. Contractors don't like working on less than 20 acres unless there is a lot of acreage nearby that needs the same service. The same goes with timber sales. Often times little tracks bring lower per acre values than large tracts.

My second suggestion is to contact the Arkansas Farm Service Agency.
Find out if the land was farmed within the last few years. If it was, you may qualify for the Conservation Reserve Program or Conservation Reserve Enhancement Program. Under these programs, the feds pay you to establish trees on your land AND give you annual payments based on the productive potential of the land. This is one of the most stupid uses of taxpayer dollars, but if the program's there then anyone should milk it.

Second, if you don't qualify for CRP or CREP then talk to the Arkansas Forestry Commission.
Have them write you a management plan and do whatever they tell you to.
Its free consulting and there are cost share programs for aforestation/reforestation as well as timber stand improvement and stuff.
If they tell you that you need to sell any timber then get a professional forester.

8/3/2006 10:17:39 PM

Wow thanks 73, I didn't really think I'd find much input around here about this. And I sure didn't know the Fed would fucking pay people to turn farmland into tree farms.

I guess I would be pretty safe over there from everything but tornadoes. No big ass hurricanes to level the stand. In fact if this turns out to be a possibility, I might see about picking up some of the other relatives land too. Unfortunately my other side of the family is redneck as fuck, but fortunately for me some of them are kinda simple and a little more hard up for money then I am, so I might be able to pick up some of this land on the cheap.

8/3/2006 10:24:08 PM

I have some relatives who have a company growing sod on some of their land. I don't know what they are making off of it, but they don't do anything but accept checks from the company. Grass doesn't take long to grow, so maybe you would get paid more often. Just another idea.

8/3/2006 10:38:08 PM

You could all simply own it as an LLC and give the management responsibilities to one person (you since you're smart enough to look for help) if you cannot afford to buy it from them.

Forest management isn't completely safe. There's always a risk of fire/pests/diseases. The risk is small, but does exist.

About taxes...I don't know how Arkansas works, but here in NC we have the forestry present use tax incentive. If you have 20 or more acres and own it for 4 years or more then the land is taxed at a lower rate than the normal property tax.

BTW, I'm Fumbler and am too lazy to log 73 off to use my own name.

8/3/2006 10:46:58 PM

pines are ok but i dunno how that would work in arkansas

besides the reallll money is in hardwoods

8/3/2006 11:19:02 PM

It's not really farming, per say, but my aunt grows Japanese Maple trees and sells them to people/landscapers for several thousand dollars each. Look into that - but they are a bitch to grow. A little seedling thats a wide as a twig and barely a foot tall sells for like, $200.

8/4/2006 12:46:28 AM

Nighthawk, I'll buy the land off you

8/4/2006 2:12:29 AM

Quote :

"pines are ok but i dunno how that would work in arkansas besides the reallll money is in hardwoods "

I'm no expert on Arkansas' forest types, but I'm pretty sure a large portion of their forestland is loblolly pine/shortleaf pine mix. If that's the case, loblolly should be no problem.

The realll money in NC isn't from hardwoods. Our cash crop is loblolly pine. Hardwoods may bring tons of money, as much as $700/MBF for hardwood peeler logs vs $400/MBF for pine saw logs. But, returns on pine are much quicker (40 vs 60 yr) and most of NC doesn't have the correct sites for quality hardwoods. I think Arkansas may be similar.

8/4/2006 9:48:26 AM

Yea as I recall the stuff is woods and stuff are pretty much the same there as here.

8/4/2006 9:53:00 AM

My family owns 100+ acres of woodland in rural eastern North Carolina.

We do not exactly "tree farm" because the land is near our homes and we do not appreciate the upheaval caused by logging, but the timber must be cut from time to time because it can and will get "buggy." The funds from cutting timber has been a life saver in unexpected situations that can be a financial drain -- hospital bills, major home repairs, etc. The government also pays us to reseed the land. So we occationally cut timber and reseed with the knowledge that it will be there 30 years down the road when we need a source of funds.

We see considerably more money per acre than what has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but it all depends on the type, size, and quality of the timber on your land. We generally receive dozens of calls and letters from companies who wish to log our land, but we have our own preferred company that does the job right without ruining the surrounding area.

8/4/2006 9:58:03 PM

You're getting considerably more than $4k/ac without having to sealed bid it?
That's not at all normal...

Who's buying your timber or who is your consultant?

8/5/2006 9:38:07 PM

Quote :

"Major : Forest Management"

so what you're saying is, you don't actullaly know anything about your major.

[Edited on August 6, 2006 at 2:44 AM. Reason : oh wait i'm in the lounge, sorry omar.]

8/6/2006 2:43:57 AM

become a farmer, but dont farm, as long as it was used as farming 100 years ago, you get gov money....they are selling land in TX that 100 years ago was farming, and the homeowners get a check each month for "farming" It is legal and all.....They say about 50% of that money goes to land that is no longer used for farming...

[Edited on August 6, 2006 at 3:15 PM. Reason : w]

8/6/2006 3:14:25 PM

Quote :

"so what you're saying is, you don't actullaly know anything about your major."

Who are you talking to?

8/6/2006 9:49:33 PM

this sounds like a horrible way to make a bit of money.

8/6/2006 11:59:26 PM

How so?

Here's the typical scenario:
Some person inherits some farm which also includes forestland.
The trees are old and dying, so they sell the timber for $2000/ac.
They spend $75/ac to plant it after the harvest, then $110/ac the second year to spray herbicide.
NC will cover 40% of reforestation costs so you actually pay $45 and $66/ac.

At age 15, they thin the stand to reduce the stocking and recieve $250/ac.
They wait til age 40 and clearcut the stand for $3500/ac.
The present value of $3500 at 40 years with an interest rate of 5% is $497.
Present value of the $250/ac thin is $120 for a total present value of $617.
Deduct your planting and herbicide and you get $508/ac. That's not too bad is it?
You can also throw in hunting leases at $5-15/ac every year to offset the cost of property tax.

[Edited on August 7, 2006 at 12:54 AM. Reason : Not to mention you can take a tax deduction on remaining reforestation costs]

8/7/2006 12:46:53 AM