...is the only morally defensible use of force possible.

Anything other than overwhelming and disproportionate force, and more people die than would otherwise.

Discuss.

7/16/2006 8:25:28 PM

9/11?

7/16/2006 8:29:32 PM

So your argument is essentially that the ends justify the means?

7/16/2006 8:32:35 PM

He is just saying that if they half-ass it then nothing will change other than more people would be dead.

7/16/2006 8:35:58 PM

Israel has justified it's heavy-handed defense tactics as necessary to deter future attacks by terrorist organizations.

I would have to agree with them that violence is the only language that Hamas and Hezbollah understand. Diplomacy does not work in the region because Palestine and Lebanon have no control over these militant groups, whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

7/16/2006 8:45:22 PM

I was just thinking about this, but I wouldn't say that disproportionate use of force is automatically moral. I'd say that proportion is largely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the necessity of the force, that is, whether or not it is sufficient to acheive the desired goal.

If you go with "proportional" force, and that turns out to be less than what is necessary, then whatever you are trying to stop will continue, and you will have just added more violence to that.

If you go with disproportional force and it turns out to be more than what is necessary, then more violence has been applied than really needed to be applied. This might be better than the other, but it still isn't good.

The only reason people ever think about proportionality is that they don't want to put the effort into figuring out what the necessary amount of force is, and they don't want to overdo it but they also don't want to look like pussies, so they generally undershoot and kill people for nothing.

7/16/2006 8:53:08 PM

Why is it that certain people hate the countries that have the capability to use disproportionate force no matter what the circumstances may be?

7/16/2006 9:00:21 PM

Many observers consider it disproportionate that hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinians have to die in Israels attempts at recovering 3 captured soldiers.

But Israel needed to reestablish a deterrant to terrorism ever since they pulled out of Gaza. Militants took that as a sign of weakness, and now they must realize the consequences of poking at a sleeping giant.

7/16/2006 9:02:01 PM

The only problem I see is that disproportionate force causes the need for more disprortionate force (in six year cycles as it seems for that region)

7/16/2006 9:11:29 PM

Quote :

"He is just saying that if they half-ass it then nothing will change other than more differently-colored people would be dead"

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 3:54 AM. Reason : ]

7/17/2006 3:53:36 AM

I disproportionate force as when someone punches you in the chest and you in turn blow them away w/ a sawed off shotgun. A rocket fired into a town almost blindley could be argued as a possibly deadlier weapon than a precesion guided munition aimed at a specfic target, though mistakes can be made. When two armys go at it I don't think there should be so called limits on force (save nuclear) dead is dead, a bullit kills just as good as a bomb. Just my thoughts.

7/17/2006 6:03:31 PM

It's the Chicago way, b.

7/17/2006 6:19:10 PM

Israel has been suprisingly careful in avoiding civilian casualties, using many of the same precision muntions used by the United States military. Yes, more than two hundred Lebanese civilians have died which is an absolute tragedy, but when one considers that the Israelis have been bombing and shelling densely populated cities in a country half the size of Connecticut with a huge amount of ordinance, it's amazing that more people haven't died. The fact that Israel actually goes through the trouble of dropping leaflets and warning civilians to evacuate is another good example, considering that they risk tipping off their targets that the Israelis are about to attack.

I am by no means attempting to defend Israeli killings of civilians, Israel knew damn well that civilians were going to die the moment they pulled the trigger. I also question some of their decisions such as blowing the crap out of the international airport. Nevertheless, I give them credit for trying to minimize civilian deaths.

Quote :

"Many observers consider it disproportionate that hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinians have to die in Israels attempts at recovering 3 captured soldiers. "

We shouldn't discount Israeli civilian casualties either from rocket fire. Hundreds of rockets have been dropped on civilian targets by Hezbollah. The only reason that the Israeli body count isn't higher is that their population has been dug in with huge numbers of bomb shelters and a sophisticated civil defense network. A large part of this operation has been about destroying Hezbollah's rocket stockpiles, which they have been continuously raining down upon Israeli cities. My personal theory is that the United States is stalling negotiations to give Israel time to blow up most of Hezbollah's rocket supply before calling a cease-fire.

7/18/2006 10:29:10 AM

never attack unless you have 3x the number of forces of your opponent

7/18/2006 10:36:10 AM

Quote :

"never attack unless you have 3x the number of forces of your opponent"

7/18/2006 10:44:20 AM

^^yeah, that's the general rule, although the prevailing school of though these days is to have 3x the combat strength of your opponent. this accounts for disparities in force multipliers such as technology, training, supply, determination, leadership/command & control, etc.

^

Quote :

"When two armys go at it I don't think there should be so called limits on force (save nuclear) dead is dead, a bullit kills just as good as a bomb. Just my thoughts."

"Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap-life is expensive."


still, economy of force is an important consideration.

not to mention that, even in war, you can be too heavyhanded (particularly in anything less than total war).

[Edited on July 18, 2006 at 11:00 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

7/18/2006 10:59:06 AM

Quote :

"Israel has justified it's heavy-handed defense tactics as necessary to deter future attacks by terrorist organizations."

Hasn't worked so far, but hey, maybe this time it will.

Quote :

"Militants took that as a sign of weakness, and now they must realize the consequences of poking at a sleeping giant."

And bombing power plants and random parts of Lebanon is obviously the best way to do this.

Quote :

"Israel has been suprisingly careful in avoiding civilian casualties, using many of the same precision muntions used by the United States military. Yes, more than two hundred Lebanese civilians have died which is an absolute tragedy, but when one considers that the Israelis have been bombing and shelling densely populated cities in a country half the size of Connecticut with a huge amount of ordinance, it's amazing that more people haven't died."

This is idiotic. You might as well claim Hezbollah has been surprisingly careful in avoiding civilian casualties. I mean, they've launched scads of rockets, but have barely managed to hit a damn thing.

Israel is bombing power plants and airports. They're obviously trying to fuck shit up for normal people. I know I'd be pissed if somebody cut my power with a bomb.

7/18/2006 12:12:41 PM

The original theory is contigant on the disproportionate force ending the conflict, in this conflict I can't see that working.

7/18/2006 12:44:38 PM

In that case, Israel is currently half-assing it, since they are accomplishing nothing.

7/18/2006 1:27:23 PM

Quote :

"This is idiotic. You might as well claim Hezbollah has been surprisingly careful in avoiding civilian casualties. I mean, they've launched scads of rockets, but have barely managed to hit a damn thing. "

I don't see Hezbollah dropping leaflets on the Israelis, warning them to go into their bunkers before dropping rockets on their cities.

Quote :

"Israel is bombing power plants and airports. They're obviously trying nito fuck shit up for normal people. I know I'd be pissed if somebody cut my power with a bomb."

They're blowing the crap out of Lebanese infastructure to put a squeeze on people, but they're not trying to outright kill them. If the Israelis really wanted to kill thousands of Lebanese, it's easily within their capabilities to burn entire cities to the ground. I'm sure the Lebanese are pissed about this, but it's a significant jump from losing power to watching your neighborhood get carpetbombed indiscriminately.

Again, I think that the Israelis are taking a big risk blowing up airports and power plants, but as I said before, there could have easily been a much larger body count; the Israelis are trying to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. I can't say the same for Hezbollah, who not only maintains bases within populated areas but also fires indiscriminately into Israeli cities.

7/18/2006 5:16:13 PM

They aren't only bombing infrastructure, they are lobbing artillary into suburbs.

7/18/2006 5:21:02 PM

Quote :

"I don't see Hezbollah dropping leaflets on the Israelis, warning them to go into their bunkers before dropping rockets on their cities."

I don't really know how Hezbollah would pull that off. Anyways, the rockets more or less serve as warnings already, due to horrible aim.

Quote :

"the Israelis are trying to keep civilian deaths to a minimum."

No they aren't. If the wanted to do that, they wouldn't be bombing at all.

Quote :

"I can't say the same for Hezbollah, who not only maintains bases within populated areas but also fires indiscriminately into Israeli cities."

Say whatever bullshit you want about intentions, but the fact is that Israel is doing a much better job of killing people than Hezbollah is.

7/18/2006 5:48:15 PM

Quote :

"If the wanted to do that, they wouldn't be bombing at all. "

its not like hezbollah isnt bombing back

[Edited on July 18, 2006 at 6:23 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2006 6:22:02 PM

Quote :

"the Israelis are trying to keep civilian deaths to a minimum"

Translation: While sodomizing the Lebanese civilian population, Israel promises to use plenty of lube.

7/19/2006 9:49:58 AM