Morrisville officials offer landowners an ultimatum: Sell land or it will be condemned

http://www.newsobserver.com/712/story/415321.html

Toby Coleman, Staff Writer

Quote :

"A developer haggling for a sliver of land he needed to complete a key road here recently got the town's elected board to help send the hard-bargaining landowners a message: Cut a deal or we will condemn your land for $390. The landowners are fuming, especially after entertaining an offer of more than $10,000 for the slice of land. They say the Morrisville Board of Commissioner's move seriously hampers their ability to negotiate a selling price for the coveted stretch of Family Farm Road, the 13-foot-wide and 300-foot-long private road that leads to their family's homes. "They should have stayed out of it," said landowner Bobby Davis Jr., 31. "I think it was a personal problem between a landowner and a developer." Developer Ed White began offering the Davis family thousands of dollars for their stretch of Family Farm Road last year, after it became clear that Centex Homes needed some of it to complete an entrance into a residential neighborhood in his Town Hall Common Development. The Davis family wanted even more, even though Wake County assessors say the property's tax value is $23. They said their price, which they declined to detail, would help them recover what they spent on a court fight over the property a decade ago. They said they stuck to their price in part because they knew how dear the land was to White and Centex. Town officials will not let Centex begin building the 83-home neighborhood until it has the complete right-of-way for the neighborhood's entrance, Liberty Rose Drive. Usually, Morrisville officials leave it to developers to buy the land needed for the roads in their new neighborhoods. But when negotiations between White, the former president of the Morrisville Chamber of Commerce, and the Davis family dragged into December, Town Manager John Whitson stepped in and began threatening to condemn the land for Liberty Rose Drive. Whitson said that he wanted to make sure that Centex could start building homes without delay and added that he stepped in because ultimately the road will be for "the public's benefit, not the developer's." Still, Davis watched carefully as the town's commissioners considered giving Whitson the power to condemn a portion of the Davis family's land for Liberty Rose Drive. On Feb. 27, White sent the town commissioners a letter urging them to do it. That same day, the commissioners voted 5-2 to permit the condemnation of a portion of Family Farm Road. "It's really to the benefit of a lot of people, and it's not detrimental to anybody," White said later. To prove his point, he said he is still willing to pay top dollar for a portion of Family Farm Road. The Davis family certainly hopes so."

Yeah, it's a few days old, but I've been on vacation, and want to bitch about this. A co-worker who lives in downtown Morrisville is facing a similar situation. The town board wants to seize all the land in downtown Morrisville and sell it to a private developer for "re-development". The entire issue has been going on for years while the town board has kept running circles with the plan and keeping the land owners in limbo.

What is the problem? The verbal proposals for the prices that will be paid for the homes is less then the value that most of them have been purchased for 10 years ago; in most cases it is below the original mortgage payoff. The town states that if you do not sell "voluntarily" for these absurdly low values when the "time comes" then they will just condemn your land and offer you even less.

This also happened to my parents in Greensboro. They took part of my parent's property as part of the right of way for Painter Blvd. However, in their case, they took the furthest 1/8 acre (of which their property extends about 1.5 acres) and paid them about 1.5 times what the fair market value would have been. Additionally, the forced purchase funded a public highway rather than a private venture. So in my parents' case, it was a legit use of eminent domain.

3/13/2006 12:48:52 PM

the government is for sale

3/13/2006 12:59:54 PM

GRAND THEFT AMERICA

3/13/2006 1:07:05 PM

I support this. They need to build a road. Its a perfectly legitimate use of eminent domain.

3/13/2006 1:11:32 PM

people need to start guerrilla warfare over this shit... that is just amazing the balls the local gov't has...

3/13/2006 1:11:56 PM

Quote :

"people need to start guerrilla warfare over this shit... that is just amazing the balls the local gov't has..."

you're wrong on two counts.

1) People need to vote, not start guerrilla warfare
2) It is not amazing that local politicians will steamroll arbitrary segments of a politically apathetic community

3/13/2006 1:13:56 PM

do you remember the urban exodus in the early '90s

when people moved to the suburbs en masse

and called it "voting with [their] feet"

ahahahahhahahahahahahahaha

SHOULD'VE VOTED AT THE POLLS THX

3/13/2006 1:15:41 PM

Quote :

"The Davis family wanted even more, even though Wake County assessors say the property's tax value is $23. They said their price, which they declined to detail, would help them recover what they spent on a court fight over the property a decade ago."

you fucks are so stupid...if you dont know anything about this, then dont comment

3/13/2006 1:15:41 PM

hey, put some endangered animals on the land

and really piss the town off

3/13/2006 1:20:45 PM

that's not a bad idea

or you could relocate some indian burial grounds out there too

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : s]

3/13/2006 1:23:06 PM

What exactly does it mean to "condemn" the land in this case? That is a term I haven't heard used in relation to eminent domain.

Either way, I hate this shit. If a person or company owns land and another person or company wants it the government should stay out of it. This "for the good of everybody" shit is bullshit.

3/13/2006 1:25:01 PM

Quote :

"I support this. They need to build a road. Its a perfectly legitimate use of eminent domain."

Not so fast. The "need to build a road" is needed by the builder, not the town. This does not fill any public need, but meets the requirements set by the town so that the developer may begin construction on said subdivision.

3/13/2006 1:36:10 PM

Who was it on the Raleigh Commission that suggested forcing eminent domain on several families farms out past trying road to build a throughput but one of the farmers brought new plans that would be Cheaper to build, more direct of a route, and wouldnt go through multiple properties... only one.

It would do an S-curve going through the commissioners land. The throughput idea was suddenly dropped. I was like 11 at the time.

3/13/2006 1:38:08 PM

^^^

Condemnation is the term for the process of exercising eminent domain.

3/13/2006 1:41:40 PM

i mean it sucks

but it sounds like they should have sold it. its gonna be hard to win that in a higher court, especially if the entrance was gonna make it easier for emergency vehicle/school bus routes

3/13/2006 2:06:43 PM

yep, wal-marts and gated communities are more important to the government than your individual property rights, so dont buy land anywhere fucking near civilization

3/13/2006 2:09:14 PM

1 acre = 43 560 square feet
13 * 300 = 3,900

3900/43560 = 8.95% of an acre...
FOR TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. You are telling me that land is worth more than $110,000 an acre. Or even fucking close?!?!?!

$10,000 for .09 acres in Morrisville. Condemn that shit and give them $23. Fuck'em.

3/13/2006 2:14:32 PM

no, they wanted more than the 10 grand, so more per acre than that.

stupid greedy sombitches

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:20 PM. Reason : ]

3/13/2006 2:20:09 PM

actually

land in that general area is going for about $200,000 an acre...

3/13/2006 2:21:34 PM

^proof? or an example.

I do not know the area.

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:22 PM. Reason : or example.]

3/13/2006 2:22:14 PM

http://msweb01.co.wake.nc.us/realestate/Account.asp?id=0277760

3/13/2006 2:23:21 PM

that's developed land

3/13/2006 2:24:02 PM

doesnt matter

3/13/2006 2:26:33 PM

Yeah, but that is only .2 acres with a land value of $40000. 200k on the nose.

Then I stand corrected. They should have been offered more and deserve more.

How close is that to the land in question?

3/13/2006 2:26:56 PM

its a mile driving, probably 2000 feet "as the crow flies"

Quote :

"Start address: 107 Crescendo Dr Morrisville, NC 27560 End address: Family Farm Rd Morrisville, NC 27560 Distance: 1.0 mi (about 3 mins)"

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/13/2006 2:28:25 PM

Expensive ass land!

Not had anything like this happen to anyone I know. But they should be offered fair market value.

3/13/2006 2:31:13 PM

yeah it is

and the intersections that it is near have TONS of development going on right now. commercial and residential. it doesnt matter that the land in question is undeveloped, because of all the development going on all around it.

i would imagine that the land in question hasnt been assessed for value as recently as the stuff that has been developed and sold and re-deeded in the past couple of years

3/13/2006 2:36:49 PM

What was the supreme court case in the last 10 years which expanded the powers of emininet domain? Forgetting my AP gov't stuff...

3/13/2006 3:36:27 PM

It doesn't matter what the land is worth or what the developer is willing to pay for it. It matters that someone owns this land and has the right to choose not to sell it.

3/13/2006 3:41:56 PM

it seems to me like its just supply and demand (simplified). If the developer wants the land, he'll offer what its worth to him, and if its not enough for the people to sell it, they wont. It doesnt matter if they are "greedy" and want more, its their right to want whatever they want. Its absolute stupid that the White guy, who seemed buddy buddy with the town commission or whatever, can use those connections to strong arm the people and then feel all high and mighty 'cause he's still willing to pay them what he offered.

Id love to go into Best Buy and say "I want that plasma TV for 50 bucks" then MAKE them sell it to me for that price. Thats absolutely how business should work

3/13/2006 3:59:45 PM

you people still havent educated yourself into what actually goes on

3/13/2006 4:22:57 PM

now i remember, peakseeker was the idiot who kept defending the city in the Kelo case last year

3/13/2006 4:42:04 PM

ok? What the hell is Kelo?


Im pointing out the fact that yall tards have not even read the above article - but you are making arguments based on the title of the thread

3/13/2006 4:51:59 PM

I am pretty sure there is a strong argument to pay market value and not tax value. Not sure what NC recognizes....

3/13/2006 5:10:45 PM

^Market Value

3/13/2006 6:08:57 PM

Not really relivant but does anyone rember that dumbass who kept his house @ crossroads mall (where Home Depot is)tryng to hold out for more money? He was offered $900k and was holding out for a mill so they built the mall around him. Ended up sellin 2 years later for 200k.

3/13/2006 6:28:39 PM

Some times in cases like these I feel like a jury of peers needs to decide something. On the one hand, I side with the land owner and feel like a developer, who is going to be making shit tons of money, can afford to pay exorbitant prices and it should be the land owners good fortune that he happened to own the land.

On the other hand, when something rather mundane is needed for completion of something that will effect many people, I tend to side with the developer.

I think a random selection of people should be presented the facts, including how much the typical profit a developer is going to make (it will probably be millions for this peice), and then let them decide on what a fair compensation is for both parties, an arbitrator if you will.

3/13/2006 6:46:15 PM

All I have to say is that we don't need more new construction. GG for them for being asses and sticking up for the rest of is.

If I were a guy living in Morrisville, I'd say SUCKIT

3/13/2006 7:08:08 PM

Wait, I've heard a shit ton of times that NC doesn't allow eminent domain for this type of thing? How is this different than the people taking land to build a mall or condos?

3/13/2006 7:13:03 PM

Being a county planner, you would be suprised how often stuff like this happens. Usually some guy has an inconcieveably small piece of land and wants the developer to pay for his retirement to put an access or utility easement or parcel off a tiny piece for a right of way. Although its not PC, I can understand how obstructionist some property owners are from letting adjacent property owners make use of their property. I couldn't say for sure because theres usally more to the story than the paper prints.

3/13/2006 9:49:24 PM

sounds like they got greedy, and in the process hurt the town's ability to collect more tax money.

dumbasses

3/14/2006 12:24:28 AM

Quote :

"Cut a deal or we will condemn your land"

When I think of condemn in this context I think of this definition:

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building.

I'm thinking that they have to be using a different definition when they are strong arming people out of their property. I mean they are pretty much saying - you have to give up this property because it is unsafe. There is a gaping hole here that allows them to declare perfectly safe property "condemned" just to get the people out or drive the value down for the developers to gobble up on the cheap.

They shouldn't be allowed to say what is and isn't condemned in cases like this. It would be too easy (and this is the way it currently works) to go around with their magic wand and declare everything condemned just to screw land squatters over. It would seem like they would have to have a third party declare the property condemned, you know, after a real assessment of the property in question. Then again the "third party" would probably also be coerced into declaring the property condemned.

Quote :

"Wake County assessors say the property's tax value is $23. "

I'd love to see just how much land $23 would buy you in Morrisville. $23? That's insane. Maybe what they mean is the land is worth $2300 and is taxed at a rate of 1%?

3/14/2006 7:54:03 AM

Quote :

"sounds like they got greedy, and in the process hurt the town's ability to collect more tax money. dumbasses "

Oh yeah, they're greedy for wanting a fair price to be forced off of their land.

The government should be able to take land from anybody they want for any price they want, just so they can make more tax revenue off of it. Why don't we start with your parents' home? We'll give them 5 thousand dollars, take the house and land, and put a K-mart there. Stop crying -- it's for the good of everybody -- think of all the taxes that K-mart will rake in!

3/14/2006 8:38:39 AM

Quote :

"Oh yeah, they're greedy for wanting a fair price to be forced off of their land. "

but they're not being "force off of their land". Their driveway is being shortened by a couple hundred feet. They will still have use of it afterwards, and it will probably be paved instead of gravel.

3/14/2006 8:50:36 AM

In this specific case, yes.

There are plenty of cases where local goverments use "eminent domain" to force people off their land to generate tax revenue.

I guess I misunderstood -- I thought when they said they would "condemn" the property that they were inferring the ENTIRE property, not just the stretch of land in question.

Either way, it's horseshit. It's still a private venture that needs that strip of land, let them buy it like anybody else. They didn't have to build their shitty gated community RIGHT THERE.

3/14/2006 8:54:40 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783.html

Article is too long to post ... couple snippets...

Quote :

" Justices Affirm Property Seizures 5-4 Ruling Backs Forced Sales for Private Development The Supreme Court ruled yesterday that local governments may force property owners to sell out and make way for private economic development when officials decide it would benefit the public, even if the property is not blighted and the new project's success is not guaranteed."

Quote :

" The 5 to 4 ruling provided the strong affirmation that state and local governments had sought for their increasing use of eminent domain for urban revitalization, especially in the Northeast, where many city centers have decayed and the suburban land supply is dwindling."

Quote :

"But Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the majority, cited cases in which the court has interpreted "public use" to include not only such traditional projects as bridges or highways but also slum clearance and land redistribution. He concluded that a "public purpose" such as creating jobs in a depressed city can also satisfy the Fifth Amendment."

There are several state laws in the works and a couple in the US House to fight this.

3/14/2006 12:02:46 PM

The important thing to remember about Kelo vs. New London is that it was about regional economic development. Which party has precedence in this case... the seven landowners who wanted to save their land because of the "pretty view" and would be paid fair market value, or the several thousand high paying jobs that would be brought into New London, which would be revitalized and bring a higher quality of life (also more tax revenue and better services) to the residents of New London, which has been shuttered from the closing of industry and the submarine base and has the highest unemployement rate in the Northeast.

Anyone who has studied the case knows that this case had the overwhelming public interest in mind. What it boils down to is should seven people be able to stop a project that could bring a dramatically better life to the entire region?

3/14/2006 6:35:37 PM

no, they shouldnt.

eminent domain is a necessary evil in most cases. without it, you wouldnt have most of this country's highways. in some cases, however, it is misused. in this specific case, however, i would have to side with the seizure. these people were essentially attempting to extort the town (and indirectly, you and me - joe taxpayer).

so again, fuck those people for being greedy.

3/16/2006 10:59:36 PM

They should raise the tax value because obviously it's worth more than $10k.

3/17/2006 12:46:50 AM

^^^
I'm not so much concerned about that specific case as I am the future precedence it sets for other cases. I don't trust city/state officials to determine what is the "best" private use for my property. I can tell you a number of stories of properties in Charlotte that were most likely "forced" to sell because of cases like this.

3/17/2006 5:36:45 AM