3/12/2006 11:35:04 PM

I remember this shit. Propaganda at its finest.

3/12/2006 11:44:49 PM

Where are our video's today? We have about the same level of taxation as was used to fight WW2. We actually were paying more until George Bush was elected (surely someone else could have saved us, but even the devil helps someone once in a while).

3/13/2006 12:13:29 AM

that swastika swing door is kinda hot

3/13/2006 1:18:28 AM

How America.

"Guns. Guns. All kinds of guns!"

Hahaha

"Taxes will keep Democracy on the march"

Tell that to Mr. Taxcut.

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 1:33 AM. Reason : ...]

3/13/2006 1:30:43 AM

we should have let europe fight their own damn war.

3/13/2006 2:06:53 AM

Quote :

"How America. Hahaha"

Well our taxes did help defeat the axis.. and if you think about it.. we did defeat them with Guns Guns-all kinds of guns!

The film reminds me of how our tax-paying structure changed during WWII. Up until 1943, everyone had to put aside their tax money and pay installments 4 times a year. Americans being Americans, not everyone was doing this..and so with-holding was introduced.

Nowadays, basically only the self-employed have to set aside estimated payments. I wonder if the runaway federal spending would've occurred as bad if we had returned to estimated payments after the end of the war. Today, our tax money is slipped away from our paychecks so smoothly, that we tend to forget how much we are losing- since we never got it in the first place.

We might apply more pressure on politicians to control spending if we had to feel that sting every 3 months when we wrote a check out to the gov't. (especially if one pay-date was a week before any national election). Of course if we had the FairTax in place, we would feel that little sting everytime we purchased something new. That sting encourages us to keep the pressure on the politicians.

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:25 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:27 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 2:27 AM. Reason : spelling arrgh!]

3/13/2006 2:24:35 AM

Paygo'd accomplish the same thing.

3/13/2006 2:32:49 AM

I don't have a problem with anything in that video, and if anyone tells me that it wasn't worth some blatant propaganda to kill the nazis, I'll laugh in their face.

3/13/2006 2:55:15 AM

The case for war could've stood on its own two feet without the propaganda.

3/13/2006 2:56:16 AM

I don't know. If that were true, we would've jumped in waaaaay earlier than we did.

3/13/2006 3:04:33 AM

Quote :

"The case for war could've stood on its own two feet without the propaganda."

Really? Americans were pretty isolationist in the early days of WWII. Remember 1941 -Charles Lindbergh's "This is not our fight".

But the goal of this movie wasn't to get us into the war. It was to encourage us to put our estimated tax-payments aside for the war effort. I don't think Disney made any movies that tried to get us into WWII.

3/13/2006 3:25:46 AM

In that case, the propaganda was unnecessary, and due exclusively to the weakness of the government to enforce it's own laws.

3/13/2006 10:58:40 AM

^ The only way any government can enforce it own laws is to convince the populous to agree with them and act accordingly. This video does that. And I much prefer it to the alternative, locking a could thousand people in jail for "forgetting to save enough to pay their taxes"

Little reminders such as this are an excellent solution to a social problem.

3/13/2006 12:17:48 PM

ah yes, "The Spirit of '43". I started trying to collect all these cartoons last year. I gave most of them to Joe Caddell to use in the History Dept.

Anyone want to host "Der Furere's Face"?

3/13/2006 12:23:24 PM

I wish we could see the reactions of different people at that time as they watched the movie.

3/13/2006 12:38:39 PM

But no, Gamecat and his ilk are right. Propaganda is always bad. Why? Because it is propaganda, man. 1984 and shit.

3/13/2006 12:47:07 PM

why the hell is the thrifty one scottish?

is that some like 1940s stereotype that i don't know about?

IS THAT WHY SCROOGE McDUCK HAS THAT ACCENT?






A SEAMONSTA ET MAH AHS CREEM?

3/13/2006 12:53:56 PM

^If that turns out to be true, then is the stereotypical Scotsman also capable of swimming in hard currency like it's water?

3/13/2006 1:13:34 PM

and sucking it in and then kinda just spitting it out

3/13/2006 1:16:43 PM

But no, GrumpyGOP and his ilk are right. The tail should wag the dog. Why? Because it's smarter. Elitism and shit.

3/13/2006 1:22:06 PM

Ha, I hadn't seen that video since I was a little kid.

Good find.

3/13/2006 2:51:02 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2857278388843745235&q=donald+duck

When was this ever "banned"?

3/13/2006 3:08:10 PM

My guess is that it had to do with the war ending. And the unfortunate rise of PC culture.

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 4:03 PM. Reason : ...]

3/13/2006 4:03:40 PM

Quote :

"The tail should wag the dog."

It isn't preferable, but it is sometimes necessary. The key word there is "sometimes," as only certain circumstances warrant the employment of an undesirable method. The same can be said of pretty much anything unpleasant the government does. Taxes are an undesirable breach of our freedom to use the fruits of our labor as we see fit, but our collective need for certain services justifies their existence. War is undesirable, but the need to defend ourselves can warrant it. And propaganda is undesirable, but the need to win that war to defend ourselves can make it necessary.

You, by all appearances, seem to be of the opinion that propaganda is never warranted, because if beating the nazis didn't warrant it, nothing could. To me it just seems unreasonable to refuse to consider it out of hand.

3/13/2006 4:16:45 PM

popeye participates in Lend-Lease:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2263301282676551422&q=banned+cartoons

and to be fair, Hirohito didnt have an active role in the instigation of war (as opposed to, say, Tojo or Yamamoto), so it wasnt really his fault we had to pay those taxes. thats another topic tho...

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

3/13/2006 4:42:05 PM

^ I wonder if the Americans could be reasonably assumed to know that at the time.

Seriously, what did America know of the secret in-fighting taking place in Japan?

3/13/2006 7:40:54 PM

well, hindsight is 20/20

3/13/2006 7:50:40 PM

that guy was the scrooge mcduck prototype...scrooge later appeared in his whole form in 1947

man this is a good cartoon...so elegant and powerful

though i like the one better with daffy duck when he takes on the wolf hitler

3/13/2006 7:57:33 PM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: You, by all appearances, seem to be of the opinion that propaganda is never warranted, because if beating the nazis didn't warrant it, nothing could. To me it just seems unreasonable to refuse to consider it out of hand."

Forgive me for having faith in the public momentarily. I'd figure they'd be grown up enough to make up their own minds and ought to be allowed to do so with minimal government interference.

You want to encourage people to pay taxes for the war effort? Fine. But why not use facts instead of cartoons?

The truth should've been compelling enough. The very real plights of Europe and the Asian Pacific, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and the U-Boats off the shores of the United States should've been enough to convince the populace to take taxation and the fruits therefrom seriously. If the people didn't respond to the facts appropriately, why the need to animate the issue?

If they didn't want to liberate Europe or the East, why should they be blatantly coerced into doing so?

The piece works well as a public service reminder, though.

[Edited on March 13, 2006 at 8:46 PM. Reason : ...]

3/13/2006 8:22:24 PM

Quote :

"The very real plights of Europe and the Asian Pacific,"

That works so well doesn't it, talking about the plight of others? I mean it worked well for this war didn't it?

Quote :

"the attack on Pearl Harbor,"

Got us into the war, but something like that won't sustain people.

Quote :

"and the U-Boats off the shores of the United States "

would have been about as easy to prove as WMDs

Quote :

"Forgive me for having faith in the public momentarily. I'd figure they'd be grown up enough to make up their own minds and ought to be allowed to do so with minimal government interference. "

You seem to have very little faith in the public if you think Donald overrode the public's ability to "make up their own minds".

3/13/2006 10:14:36 PM

Quote :

"facts instead of cartoons?"

facts instead of radio broadcasts?

facts instead of books?

facts instead of newspaper articles?

3/13/2006 10:15:19 PM

marko made a better point in fewer characters.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: That works so well doesn't it, talking about the plight of others? I mean it worked well for this war didn't it?"

Actually, it did. Or did you miss the part where we invaded Iraq?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: Got us into the war, but something like that won't sustain people."

Firebombing of London. The Holocaust. The invasion of our allies.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: would have been about as easy to prove as WMDs"

How uninformed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_States_territory_in_North_America_during_World_War_II

Quote :

"The Atlantic Ocean was a major strategic battle zone (Second Battle of the Atlantic) and when Germany declared war on the US, the East Coast offered easy pickings for German U-Boats (referred to as the Second happy time). In February to May, 1942, 348 ships were sunk, but no U-boat was lost until May. The US was reluctant to introduce the convoy system that had protected trans-Atlantic shipping and coastal shipping was often silhouetted against the bright lights of American towns and cities. Several ships were torpedoed within sight of East Coast cities such as New York and Boston; indeed, some civilians sat on beaches and watched battles between U.S. and German ships. Once convoys and air cover were introduced, sinking numbers were reduced and the U-boats shifted to attack shipping in the Gulf of Mexico, with 121 losses in June. In one instance, the tanker Virginia was torpedoed in the mouth of the Mississippi River by the German U-Boat U-507 on May 12, 1942, killing 26 crewmen. There were 14 survivors. Again, when defensive measures were introduced, ship sinkings decreased and U-boat sinkings increased. The cumulative effect of this campaign was severe; a quarter of all wartime sinkings - 3.1 million tons. It rates as the worst defeat by the United States Navy."

So would they have had to prove it to the eyewitnesses who watched the battles from the beaches?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: You seem to have very little faith in the public if you think Donald overrode the public's ability to "make up their own minds"."

I don't think it overrode their ability to make up their own minds, but I do believe, and clearly the government did as well, that the cartoons would be able to influence their opinions and behavior.

3/13/2006 10:39:22 PM

Quote :

"The piece works well as a public service reminder, though."

The line is awfully fucking blurry.

Straightforward public service announcements are boring at best and openly mocked and derided at worst. They don't connect terribly well. It's the same reason advertisers come up with funny/catchy commercials instead of just plain demonstrations of their product.

This packaged the reminder in a much more palatable light and thus increased its meaningful exposure to the American people. If we want to distinguish between "public service reminder," which I gather is OK, and "propaganda," which I gather isn't, I'm not sure which one this piece is.

Quote :

"But why not use facts instead of cartoons?"

What part of that piece -- or rather, what relevant part -- was not factual?

Not paying your taxes does hurt the war effort. Seeing the head of the IRS say that would probably not be as engaging as seeing Donald Duck hear the lesson from his Scottish alter-ego.

Quote :

"I'd figure they'd be grown up enough to make up their own minds and ought to be allowed to do so with minimal government interference."

This could be...debatable. At least for the time period. The American population of 1940 was not nearly so well-educated, was not nearly so exposed to news as the American population of 2006. (And how well-educated and informed we are at the moment is perhaps questionable in its own right). If wanting people with a substantially greater understanding of the situation to guide those with less of one is elitist, well, maybe I qualify.

But I don't think I do. Obviously the best way to handle the matter is not to guide people, but to educate them. But when Pearl Harbor blew up we didn't have time to send everyone to school and develop a way to get instant news information to everybody. So, given the situation, I think we did the best we could with what we had available. Again, it wasn't preferable, it was necessary.

Quote :

"The truth should've been compelling enough."

It wasn't. You mention the Holocaust a couple of posts down. Nobody gave a shit. We were turning away Jews right up until the moment Hitler stopped letting them leave, and we didn't know the full magnitude of the atrocity until the war (at least in Europe) was damned near won. So no, I don't think the straight facts could have done it. I think if they could have, we would have landed on Hitler with two feet right after he looked crosseyed at Poland. I think we would have launched a fleet from Pearl Harbor after the rape of Nanking.

Quote :

"If they didn't want to liberate Europe or the East, why should they be blatantly coerced into doing so?"

Because it was right, and right supercedes the will of the uneducated and bigoted masses. I don't care how that sounds, at the end of the day, if my choice is between letting millions die because ignorant people don't want to help and convincing them that they damn sure do through any means of lesser evil necessary, then I'm going to go with the latter.

3/14/2006 12:50:41 AM

Quote :

"Because it was right, and right supercedes the will of the uneducated and bigoted masses. I don't care how that sounds, at the end of the day, if my choice is between letting millions die because ignorant people don't want to help and convincing them that they damn sure do through any means of lesser evil necessary, then I'm going to go with the latter. "

Didn't some Republican a while blame the democrats losing the election on them having this belief? Believing that people were too stupid to rule themselves?

In any case, by the time of this cartoon, Americans were already "exposed" to the war, and seemed to have resolved to support it. The cartoon was aimed at kids too. The amount of propaganda present is a bit over the top. Just imagine if similar levels of indoctrination were in cartoons today... telling kids to support expansive social programs, etc., because it is what keeps Democracy rolling (or whatever). People would be outraged.

I do think that in the case of WWII, the Gov. is allowed to use a bit of propaganda to do the "right thing" (in this case stop Hitler), but putting it a children's cartoon, and making as absolute as they did would clearly be wrong.

On a side note, in the Battlestar Galactica season finale, one of the themes was wether or not it is right to rig a democratic election. The "good guy" had the less popular platform, but clearly better one, and the "bad guy," apart from being aligned with what the viewer knows as a truly bitter enemy, had the more popular but worse platform. The "good guy" was faced with the decision to rig the election for the good of the fleet, or not, and have the people suffer in the long run. To me, this would be a similar (but less crucial) situation... to sacrifice your ideals and ethics to trick people in to seeing the truth, or not.

3/14/2006 12:57:50 AM

Quote :

"if my choice is between letting millions die because ignorant people don't want to help "

do the words "post-war russia" ring a bell?

3/14/2006 1:07:32 AM

^Yes, they do, and it's a largely different issue.

Quote :

"Believing that people were too stupid to rule themselves?"

This isn't wording things quite right.

People in general believe that they are too stupid to rule themselves. That's why we have governments. If we really and sincerely believed that we could manage our own shit, we'd move towards anarchism.

That isn't to say that we should have no part in ruling ourselves. We know at least a little bit -- if nothing else, we know what would make us happy in the short term. So based on that, we pick people who we perceive to be more qualified to handle the particulars of giving us what we want and tell them to make calls for us.

Of course, nobody words it like that. It sounds elitist. But I'm not convinced that it is -- especially when we're the ones saying, "Look, either I'm not capable of doing this, or I really just don't want to."

I just don't think we elect our governments to tell us that we're right all the time.

Quote :

"In any case, by the time of this cartoon, Americans were already "exposed" to the war, and seemed to have resolved to support it."

True, but just because we support the war effort doesn't mean that we remember to save for our taxes, or even that we want to do it...plenty of people, as you well know, support our current military endeavors while not enlisting to go fight.

Quote :

"The cartoon was aimed at kids too."

I find this interesting. Society seems to agree that kids, without putting too fine a point on it, are too stupid to rule themselves. The cartoon basically told them the law -- admittedly with some flare and some war-specific references -- but it told them the law, all the same. If we trusted parents to handle teaching their kids all law, we wouldn't have civics class.

[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 1:09 AM. Reason : ]

3/14/2006 1:08:52 AM

his qualifier was millions of dead people

how bout that hotel rwanda shit

I SAW THAT MOVIE

3/14/2006 1:16:13 AM

We should have been in Rwanda and Uganda and we should be in Sudan and we should have made any cartoon necessary to get to those places.

3/14/2006 1:17:39 AM

I don't know if you realize it but all the people in those countries are black.

3/14/2006 1:29:09 AM

^^ I was thinking the same thing...

^ haha... they have a little bit of oil though, don't they?

[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 1:56 AM. Reason : ]

3/14/2006 1:56:05 AM